Dell Sells Open Source Computers

Lo5 writes with the excellent news that Dell is selling desktop computers without Windows preinstalled. They are called "n Series"; you can choose from Dimension E520, E521, or C521 desktops. The hard drive comes unformatted.

This is not news.

Dell has been doing this for a long time.

Re:This is not news.

This is, to be fair, slightly different from their supported Linux boxes- these are FreeDOS and you're expected to supply a real OS and your own support. Slashdot's first story about them appears to date from 2004 [slashdot.org]; like you say, they've been selling (expensive) supported Linux boxes for a lot longer than that.

Re:This is not news.

No, the difference is that Dell get paid to install third-party apps onto a Windows install.

Re:This is not news.

Not sure where everyone is doing their cart comparisons... but I'm getting cheaper n-series with direct comparisons. 520n ($509) vs 520 ($589) (through smallbusiness which is a little cheaper than home) with:

Pentium® D Processor 820 with Dual CoreTechnology(2.80GHz,800FSB)
1GB Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 533MHz- 2DIMMs
256MB nVidia Geforce 7300LE TurboCache
No Monitor
48X CD-RW/ DVD Combo Drive

The big difference in them would be HDD upgrades since the n-series had a free upgrade to 250GB, but I just left the Windows 520 with the default 160GB HDD. Also, the n-series forces you to buy a FDD and a modem. The Windows 520 did not.. if I'd added them to make it more even.. that'd be an extra $50 on the Windows system.

Either way, this is better than in the past when the n-series did appear to cost more no matter what you did. Also, this is a system that's $80 cheaper and it comes with 100 more GB on the harddrive and has an FDD, modem. (not sure what to do with that though).

If you run a cart through the Home section, the price comes to about $609 for the 520 (using the above mentioned setup) with Windows though you do get a 320GB HDD in the deal.

Re:This is not news.

If I buy one of these, and add a wireless network adapter, does Dell help me get it configured? I'd pay $500 just for that.

The time I wasted trying to get Linux to connect to the Internet w/ my Dell laptops, I could have built one from scratch, including fabricating the case from petroleum products. Every time I replace my laptop, I decide I'm going to put Linux on the old one so I can get to know it better and bond with my Slashdot brothers. I always fail when I get to the wireless. I even decide I don't really mind buying a second wifi adapter because the one built-in doesn't have Linux drivers (or, I'm just not smart enough to find them, which is more probable). I spend about a half hour trying to find one, I start to read about some kind of "wrapper" thing, and I start drinking heavily.

When this new Media Ubuntu comes out, I'm going to try again. It's a bi-annual tradition for me.

FULL ANALYSIS, IDENTICAL SYSTEM

Link to customize E520 [dell.com] Link to customize E520n [dell.com]

It was a pain in the ass slogging through 42 pages of Tax Prep software offers and all sorts of crap, but here's the breakdown between the two systems. The E520n is no OS, the E520 is with Windows & the Windows-tax.

(1) The E520n forces you to take a "free" 90 gig HD upgrade. Upgrade the E520 for $40.
(2) The E520n forces you to take a CD/DVD drive combo. Upgrade the E520 for $30.
(3) The E520n forces you to take an nVidia video card. Upgrade the E520 for $40.
(4) The E520n forces you to take a floppy drive. Upgrade the E520 for $30.
(5) The E520n forces you to take a 56k modem. Upgrade the E520 for $20.
(6) The E520n allows you to take a "free" recycling program on your old PC. Upgrade the E520 for $25.
(7) The monitor pricing is screwy, and I think they may have made an error. One way to look at it is that the E520n gets a $60 EXTRA discount if you actively select the "no monitor" option. The other way to look at it is that the E520n pays an extra $60 (or more) penalty if it takes any monitor. I took the no monitor option to pocket the (possibly accidental) $60 bonus.

Once the systems are made as identical as possible, the final prices are $509 for no OS and $704 with OS.

So you "apparantly" get a $195 discount for taking no OS. However on order to get that $195 "discount", you are forced to pay an extra $185 for mostly unwanted overpriced crap. The actual dollars-paid difference is a $10 less for taking no OS (you could get the E520 with no upgrades for $519), but the no-OS comes with various "free stuff" thrown in instead of the OS. In my oppinion the $40 for an extra 90 gig HD ain't bad at all, the $30 for CD/DVD drive combo and $40 for 3D video card upgrade are maybe reasonable or a total waste depending, the $30 for a floppy and the $20 modem and the $25 recycling deal (which by default is left unchecked and unused) are pretty much rape. IMO.

So we still can't pull out a pure price difference for the OS, because Dell picks your pocket for an uncertain amount of money by forcing you to take that mixed bag of "upgrades" in order to get no OS, but it does look like you are getting a decent discount by taking no OS. No more games with an "OS-free" computer actually costing more than an identically configured Windows system. However a good chuck of that discount only crops up if you actively select the non-monitor option. If you take the default monitor, or if you switch to any of the other offered monitors, you basically get hosed for $60 for takeing no-OS and a monitor. If the $240 discount for the no monitor option is a mistake, or if you take the monitor, then no-OS is still a discount but not nearly as signifigant.

The other differences betwen the systems that cound not be avoided are that the Windows system comes with 6 free months of AOL (value $0), comes with free Adobe Acrobat reader (value $0), comes with free Corel photo software (value $0), comes with free Yahoo Music jukebox (value $0), and 1 year of tech support. That tech support *is* valuable, bot to you as a buyer and as a cost to Dell. If you take the no-OS option, they stiff you on the tech support. The money they pocket there in revoking tech support is signifigant and takes a signifigant bite out of any no-Windows-discount that they are actually giving you.

There is one final difference that I'm not sure if it is a real difference. The no-OS version lists "10/100/1000 Ethernet" whereas the Windows version lists "10/100 Ethernet". If the 10/100/1000 Ethernet is actually a different and better network card, then that maybe that is valuable addition in the non-OS system. However I suspect... and I may easily be wrong here... that it is the same card in both s

Re:This is not news.

Ubuntu laptops. http://system76.com/ [system76.com].
Cheapest linux laptops around although R Cubed
is a litte bit more pricey but had better OS selection.
http://www.shoprcubed.com/ [shoprcubed.com]

Re:This is not news.

Wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong.

Assembling a computer from scratch allows the owner to be familiar with what went into it, and more importantly, set it up exactly how they will want it. It is an investment in your future productivity with that machine. If you buy a pre-built one, you are going to have to transfer old stuff onto it anyway. It doesn't take that long to install linux. Or Windows, for that matter, although I haven't had to wrestle with Microsoft and their validations yet.

For my personal machine(s), I build from scratch wherever possible. Yeah, if I need a palette-load of computers for something, I get Dell do do a small or medium business build, get the warranties on everything, and let them fix it when something breaks (even though I am capable of doing it myself, fixing a general office computer is a waste of my time).

This isn't "open source" computers...

Apparently, the submitter and editor don't truly realize what "open source" is. Selling a PC without anything on it isn't open source; it's selling a computer with nothing on it. This isn't a move to support open source, it's a move to save money by not having to pay the MS tax.

Re:This isn't "open source" computers...

Well, if your computer has no compiled code on it, then it's vacuously true to say that you have all the source code too.

Re:This isn't "open source" computers...

You have the source code for your BIOS?

Actually IBM used to publish complete BIOS source

You have the source code for your BIOS?

When I used a genuine IBM PC back in the day, yes, IBM published the complete source code to BIOS. The listing was *the* API reference.

Acorn Atom came with schematics

My Acorn Atom [xs4all.nl] actually came with schematics [bjh21.me.uk] (2 [bjh21.me.uk]) and it was easy enough to disassemble the ROM. The manual even had a complete definition of the syntax in Backus-Naur format [xs4all.nl]. Too bad modern computer makers don't seem to have that sort of respect for their users.

Re:This isn't "open source" computers...

Apparently, the submitter and editor don't truly realize what "open source" is. Selling a PC without anything on it isn't open source; it's selling a computer with nothing on it. This isn't a move to support open source, it's a move to save money by not having to pay the MS tax.

Actually they aren't without anything. They come with FreeDOS. And FreeDOS is open source.

Are you looking for a desktop on which you can run Linux® or other open-source operating systems? Look no further!

Dell's new open-source n Series desktop solution provides customers with a DimensionTM E520, E521 or C521 desktop without an installed or included Microsoft® operating system. With the n Series desktop, customers have the flexibility to install an alternative operating system (such as a version of Linux® ), and help reduce the price of this system. In addition, the n Series desktop comes with a non-formatted hard drive ready for your custom installation. Dell's n Series desktop ships with a copy of FreeDosTM , an open-source operating system that is ready to install.

http://www.freedos.org/ [freedos.org]

The real question

Has anyone figured out how much cheaper these computers come than those with OEM Windows? Dell's pricing/models are so scattered I don't even know where to begin.

Re:The real question

> Has anyone figured out how much cheaper these computers come than those with OEM Windows?

Well opening a seperate tab on www.dell.com and finding almost the same system with Windows I get a difference of $185 once you make em exactly equal. But they are running a promo hard drive upgrade on the N servies right now and aren't on the normal Dimension I looked at. But it doesn't matter, when the difference is that big it is clear they are actually taking something off the sticker price when you buy an N series. Finally. Guess that makes this a real news item instead of a pathetic dupe.

Demonstrates how screwed up the market is

Shows how much Microsoft's monopoly is silently accepted when it's news that someone sells computers without Windows.

Old news

This is at least 1.5 years old, probably more.

I've been buying n-series in 2005.

Re:Old news

This is at least 1.5 years old, probably more.

Yes. More like 1.57 years old. Maybe even 1.6!

Note

Note: Dell does not support non-Dell installed operating systems.

In short: "We won't even give you tech support for the FreeDOS that comes in the package. All we'll do is replace your hardware if it breaks."

Re:Note

And this is a problem.. why?

Dell does not support non-Dell ...

Note: Dell does not support non-Dell installed operating systems. In short: "We won't even give you tech support for the FreeDOS that comes in the package. All we'll do is replace your hardware if it breaks."

That sounds like support to me. They support what they assembled/installed. Dell support is not a uniform thing, it varies quite a bit from product to product and segment to segment. Give them more money, they will give you more support. Give them even more and they'll send someone to your home/office. Give them alot of money and they'll help you setup your enterprise with custom software and help you keep it running.

We've got both kinds...

An ATI graphics card with proprietary drivers or an NVidia graphics card with proprietary drivers; what a choice.

But...

Anyone notice that, during the configuration, all the banner ads, logos and "recommendations" all mention Vista? High-larious.

How is this news?!

They've been doing this for years. News would be if "No OS" and "Linux" options were available for every system, and even more so for notebooks and the "Home" section. As it currently seems, however, this is not news.

Re:how PCs shipped without Windows will destroy yo

is there a web archive somewhere of http://www.microsoft.com/OEM/nakedPC.htm [microsoft.com] ??

Why yes. Yes there is.

http://web.archive.org/web/20000818081805/http://w ww.microsoft.com/OEM/nakedPC.htm [archive.org]

What they _Could_ be doing.

Companies like Dell are in a unique position to break the Windows monopoly.
The main problem Open Source developers are having is the near-impossibility of getting hardware documentation. The manufacturers are unwilling (which is something I do _not_ understand!), and we lack the marketing clout to force them.
Dell, Hp /et al/ have that clout. A simple decision - only use hardware for which full specs are available - would force the manufacturer's hands. The developers of xorg, linux, BSD etc would use that to produce full support, and everyone would have a real choice. The companies would not have to pay the MS tax, MS would have an incentive to actually make their products useable, DRM would take a heavy thwacking as people can choose not to have it.

Ah, a perfect world. Well, I can dream, can't I?

Same old BS

Each time these articles come out I go to dell.com just in case there is a deal to be had, unfortunately its the same story every frickin' time.

The basic stripped down N521* comes to $749, the basic stripped down E521 with Windows XP Home is $729! So I save $20 if I buy Windows, WTF!!! I have to pay about $70** for NO OS***?

Try again Dell.

* I had to add the 320GB drive to match what is offered on the E521.
** the N521 is $20 and Windows OEM is maybe $50.
*** it comes with FreeDOS, but its FREE, get it!

Presumably only dell.com sell these?

If dell.co.uk sell them then they keep them very well hidden. Dell.co.uk *do* sell servers without OS's though, but I can't find any n-series in the UK.

stupid automation..

finishing up a custom system build on their site, i get this error:

Errors:
        Windows® Vista does not support Optical Drive selected.
Warnings:
        Congratulations! You have chosen all of the required hardware for a Vista Premium experience!

guess i'm outta luck...

Yeah, But It Costs More...

I just purchased five E521 workstations with XP Home Edition on Monday. Total cost, with a $60 small business coupon was $509 per system. I ran through the E521 config using the FreeDOS option. The system, almost identically configured, was $709. The only upgrade was a 250 GB drive versus a 160 GB drive (I couldn't get a discount by dropping to a 160 GB drive). Even without the coupon, it is $40 cheaper to purchase with Windows XP than without a licensed OS. So, either Microsoft is giving away XP Home Edition, or Dell is screwing their customers.

It would be better to purchase the Windows version, then you could install Linux/Xen and would be licensed to Windows as a guest.

Re:University machines

Windows volume licenses are upgrade licenses, even though they let you install fresh. You wouldn't survive a BSA audit with volume licensed Windows installed on no-OS machines.