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Red Hat Says They'll Be In Linux Long After Novell

Posted by Zonk on Sat Nov 04, 2006 07:39 AM
from the fighting-words dept.
Jane Walker writes "Red Hat general counsel Mark Webbink goes to the mat for his company regarding the Microsoft/Novell partnership, in this SearchOpenSource.com Q&A. 'In one year, Red Hat will be all that remains of commercial Linux, he said.'" From the article: "Between last week and this one, it is clear that the two largest software vendors in the world perceive Linux to be at least on the same plane as them. They have got to respect what we have done. Having said that, does Red Hat think either of them has taken the right approach, now that Microsoft and Novell have made 'Microvell'? They've gone off the road a bit, we think, but we are feeling good about the attention that has been brought to Linux. "
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  • In one year's time, it's quite possible that Red Hat will have already lost the battle of even just supporting their own product. [oracle.com]
  • by aussie_a (778472) on Saturday November 04 2006, @07:47AM (#16714669) Journal
    *Yawn*

    Alright, if you do read the actual article (a foreign concept for some I know), they do make some valid points about Linux in general. Such as that Microsoft has finally admitted it has to take Linux seriously. But one thing that does concern me.

    I don't think Linux customers have anything to worry about there.

    So people who use Novell and Microsoft products are safe, but what about those that choose other products? Will they get sued?

    One year ago, we provided a counterweight to people with patent portfolios that may threaten open source software by building a contravening portfolio of software patents.

    Nothing says that the patent system is more broken then this.

    Think back to the Microsoft/Sun announcement from a couple years ago, and today, you haven't seen any of the promised technical collaboration from that partnership whatsoever.

    Heh. Now there's an apt comparison.

    That problem is, you can be either for freedom and collaboration, or you can take a different approach

    Aaawh, now come on. You can come out and say it. "You're either for freedom and collaboration, or you're against it."

    I can at least respect Microsoft, because they don't pretend to be an open source company.

    Come on, we all know what you're saying. Leave that bush alone it's looking pretty nackered. "Novell isn't an open source company, even though it pretends to be." There, now was that so hard?
    • Such as that Microsoft has finally admitted it has to take Linux seriously.

      Let's see, what other companies has Microsoft partnered with in order to improve Windows interoperability? 3Com, Sybase....

      • Sun...

        Yes, all these companies are not doing that well today. They are not out of business either. I think Redhat makes a good point about Novell pulling out of Linux before they do. Look at the Novell track record. The real issue is why is Novell making the deal with Microsoft? Could it be that many people don't consider them relevant anymore with Netware and Groupwise? Perhaps their plans for Suse have not come to pass. I've worked for two different Universities that use Netware/Groupwise and are s
    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      So people who use Novell and Microsoft products are safe, but what about those that choose other products? Will they get sued?

      As has been discussed at length in many places in recent days, this doesn't seem likely. To summarize:

      1. There is no real 'new' risk to other Linux distros than there was a week ago. Just FUD. Saying "but Novell admit there are patents" isn't a real argument.

      2. Microsoft cannot easily crush their competition with patents, because (a) of the risk of antitrust measures, (b) the
      • So, in the end, nothing has changed, except for the apparent "gentlemans' arrangement" between Microsoft and Novell not to sue each other. This may appeal to some managers and lead them to choose SUSE, but that is all it is, a little good PR.

        That's hilariously naive. A little good PR? Well, you forget about the BIG BAD PR for the entire linux community. I will spell out for you what exactly happened: Novell (the holder of Unix copyrights btw, and a linux distributor) acknowledged that Microsoft might have valid patent claims in linux. If you haven't realized: that's pretty bad.

        And I will explain it in Ballmer's words as well, if you think I'm crazy or a zealot (btw, I use FreeBSD, not linux, but care for the FLOSS movement):

        The distributors of other versions of Linux cannot assure their customers that Microsoft won't sue for patent infringement. "If a customer says, 'Look, do we have liability for the use of your patented work?' Essentially, If you're using non-SUSE Linux, then I'd say the answer is yes," Ballmer said. "I suspect that [customers] will take that issue up with their distributor," Ballmer said. Or if customers are considering doing a direct download of a non-SUSE Linux version, "they'll think twice about that," he said.
        Novell succeeded in what SCO failed - incriminated linux distributions. SCO was a weak proxy of Microsoft, now Novell is much much stronger - after all, it is the company that has ~20% marketshare in the enterprise linux arena.

        Some people think (I'm not referring specifically to your post) that calling others zealots, because they are angry and disappointed is somehow cool. They think that they sound more intelligent if they think only inside the pragmatical/technical box. Here is another angle for those - until now, linux distributions participated in "pure" competition. What I mean is that they competed on two fronts: technical merits of the distribution, and quality of support and services. This was good, even if sometimes it got nasty (like in Oracle case). Novell tainted this with another factor: the MS patent flag. This is very bad on the long run ... unless Novell is stopped somehow.

        Oh, and fuck Miguel and friends. They only care for pushing their own agenda. Last year Novell leadership was convinced that going GNOME and MONO is a good idea. Then they had to backpedal, not only because existing customers who standardized on KDE, but because there were migration plans in progress that specifically choose KDE on SuSE, and one of them was a 2000 desktop migration plan (in Europe). Then we had Miguel saying for YEARS that there are no patent issues with MONO. And now, he claims that MONO is finally safe, at least if you use Novell's linux offerings. Yes, yes, some people would say that they saw this coming, after all, he has been a Microsoft fan for some time now. And now:

        So today we have secured a peace of mind for Novell customers that might have been worried about possible patent infringements open source deployments. This matters in particular for Mono, because for a long time its been the favorite conversation starter for folks that find dates on Slashdot.
        Well, what about non-Novell customers, Mr. Miguel? There goes all the warning agains incorporating MONO technology into GNOME btw.
  • This is not about IP. This is about the freedom to meet customer needs and to create competition. That problem is, you can be either for freedom and collaboration, or you can take a different approach. These companies are trying to do both. I can at least respect Microsoft, because they don't pretend to be an open source company.

    Intersting jibe at Novell. Although I agree. I've got nothing against MS' products, but their philosophy and that of "Linux" companies are diamerically opposed. I see no logic in No

  • Oh, come on... (Score:3, Informative)

    by Mikachu (972457) <mikazuchi@@@gmail...com> on Saturday November 04 2006, @07:54AM (#16714693) Homepage
    Do you really have to go and call it 'Microvell'? It's a partnership, not a merger. Don't get them confused.
  • "Novell also takes issue with Ballmer's comments that no vendor today stands behind Linux with full intellectual-property indemnification."

    That's the salvo that will be the real start of the war. The question isn't whether Microsoft will follow SCO's lead, but WHEN.

    • Of course, at that point we can also expect to see the EU Directorates get into a fullscale civil war between the DG Markt, Comp, InfSo and some others, over wether IP law is in any form compatible with anti-trust and a competetive market.
  • I think the bigger news from this article is the fact that RedHat is now offering indemnification for its customers. They slipped this into their FAQ now as well ( http://www.redhat.com/promo/believe/ [redhat.com]). While I think their hand was forced a bit on this one in order to remain competitive with where the market seems to be going, its still welcome news. This has been a significant hurdle for many companies even considering whether to adopt open source. As it becomes more widespread and "the norm" that you
    • I think the bigger news from this article is the fact that RedHat is now offering indemnification for its customers.

      So what, people have one of two choices now? Novell/Microsoft or Red Hat? Doesn't sound like much of a choice to me. But then again the American people are happy with it for their government, so I suppose they'll be happy with it for their operating system.
  • "now only Novell's SUSE Linux customers are the only Linux vendors that have any assurance that Microsoft won't sue for patent infringement..." Steve Ballmer

    http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=200611032 01234813 [groklaw.net]
  • Trustworthy? (Score:2, Interesting)

    Think back to the Microsoft/Sun announcement from a couple years ago, and today, you haven't seen any of the promised technical collaboration from that partnership whatsoever.

    This comment alone makes me sceptical about this article, as it is not only incorrect, but easily shown to be false. Just to give one example, anyone who has been following the development of the latest Java release (6) knows that there has been considerable technical collaboration, one result of which is that Java on Vista will be fu
    • The specialized media has been aghast with the result of such fruitful collaboration.

      People are clamoring, no, begging, for more of it.
      • The specialized media has been aghast with the result of such fruitful collaboration.

        People are clamoring, no, begging, for more of it.


        The strange thing about supposedly ironic and sarcastic comments is that very occasionally they are, in contrast to the intentions of the author.

        One of the results of the collaboration has been Java 6 integration with Windows. No matter what the common belief, Java desktop development is widespread, but what is really needed is GUI integration and performance that makes it
    • results are better networking between Solaris systems and Windows.

      Does than mean IPec on Windows now works? Heck, I have BSD, 2 Linux and 2 Solaris doing IPSec natively and together but getting Microsoft Windows OS to do it is a nighmare nemisis. But not holding my breath. But it is about the only reason to upgrade to Vista I can think of.

  • ...mean nothing but Slashdot is forgetting history. Despite commanding market positions and unique opportunities, Novell has consistently fucked up every single time without fail. Most of their managers can't scratch their own arses without two mirrors and a searchlight.

    Think Novell won't fuck this up again? Wrong.

    • A better piece of history to remember is how Microsoft ripped off Novell back in the OS/2 days. Network manager was supposed to be a joint project. Microsoft has done a good job targeting Novell's netware ever since.
      I just can not think this is a good thing.
    • Think Novell won't fuck this up again? Wrong.

      Your quite right on this. Novell bought XIMIAN, a key component to really making a serious run at Microsoft's desktop but when it came to marketing it they fell right down without so much as gasp. Self destructive.

  • >> In one year, Red Hat will be all that remains of commercial Linux

    Sure, but what will remain of Red Hat?

    And who needs "commercial Linux" anyway?

    Hey, I don't dislike Red Hat, in fact it's my favorite distro. But the idea of running a standalone Linux vendor is history. It is a dead parrot. It's nailed to its perch. It has shuffled off this mortal coil, etc. etc. etc.
  • by Junta (36770) on Saturday November 04 2006, @10:55AM (#16715479)
    "Between last week and this one, it is clear that the two largest software vendors in the world perceive Linux to be at least on the same plane as them. They have got to respect what we have done."

    So Linux is good, and it's *all* thanks to RedHat? No one else deserves credit.

    "We still believe that we will be the dominant player in the Linux market, because by that time there won't be any other Linux players."

    Do they have to take it to the point of saying 'there can be only one'? I mean that is the whole problem with MSOFT, a homogeneous market. If he stopped before the because, that would have been sufficient and appropriate, but that last bit fuels the flames of those who proclaim RH wants to be the MS of Linux. Whether or not they can is another matter, but it sounds like for this person, this is a confirmed desired path for RH's future.
    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      So Linux is good, and it's *all* thanks to RedHat? No one else deserves credit.

      Your paraphrasing skills need some work. This isn't what was stated or implied.

      Do they have to take it to the point of saying 'there can be only one'?

      What you're (intentionally?) leaving out is that they're referring to enterprise linux market 'players'. How many players are there now? Two by my count, but I'm not counting offerings such as Unbreakable (or even Ubuntu LTS) unless/until they gain meaningful traction in the mark
  • by porkThreeWays (895269) on Saturday November 04 2006, @11:25AM (#16715687)
    Red Hat sounds really arrogant in the article. However, much of it is basically true. I was a long time Novell/SuSe support after the acquisition. I use products from both companies on a daily basis. In the past few months I have pretty much left the suse train and jumped on the red hat one. Why? All this Oracle, Microsoft, Novell news is great for market analysts who never actually will ever use any of their products. But for someone who uses them on a daily basis, red hat's products and support are far superior.

    The stock can take a major hit in the short term by this sort of news, but quality products and good management (both of which red hat has) is what will keep the company alive in the long term. One year is much too short a timeframe for all this to pan out. Three years is more realistic. Oracle linux will turn into Sun's java desktop. The Novell/MS partnership will have yielded little/no technology advances. And Novell as a company may or may not have enough steam to keep on chugging in general (non-linux related activities).