Red Hat Says They'll Be In Linux Long After Novell

Jane Walker writes "Red Hat general counsel Mark Webbink goes to the mat for his company regarding the Microsoft/Novell partnership, in this SearchOpenSource.com Q&A. 'In one year, Red Hat will be all that remains of commercial Linux, he said.'" From the article: "Between last week and this one, it is clear that the two largest software vendors in the world perceive Linux to be at least on the same plane as them. They have got to respect what we have done. Having said that, does Red Hat think either of them has taken the right approach, now that Microsoft and Novell have made 'Microvell'? They've gone off the road a bit, we think, but we are feeling good about the attention that has been brought to Linux. "

Dubious

In one year's time, it's quite possible that Red Hat will have already lost the battle of even just supporting their own product. [oracle.com]

Red Hat Beats it's own chest

*Yawn*

Alright, if you do read the actual article (a foreign concept for some I know), they do make some valid points about Linux in general. Such as that Microsoft has finally admitted it has to take Linux seriously. But one thing that does concern me.

I don't think Linux customers have anything to worry about there.

So people who use Novell and Microsoft products are safe, but what about those that choose other products? Will they get sued?

One year ago, we provided a counterweight to people with patent portfolios that may threaten open source software by building a contravening portfolio of software patents.

Nothing says that the patent system is more broken then this.

Think back to the Microsoft/Sun announcement from a couple years ago, and today, you haven't seen any of the promised technical collaboration from that partnership whatsoever.

Heh. Now there's an apt comparison.

That problem is, you can be either for freedom and collaboration, or you can take a different approach

Aaawh, now come on. You can come out and say it. "You're either for freedom and collaboration, or you're against it."

I can at least respect Microsoft, because they don't pretend to be an open source company.

Come on, we all know what you're saying. Leave that bush alone it's looking pretty nackered. "Novell isn't an open source company, even though it pretends to be." There, now was that so hard?

Re:Red Hat Beats it's own chest

So, in the end, nothing has changed, except for the apparent "gentlemans' arrangement" between Microsoft and Novell not to sue each other. This may appeal to some managers and lead them to choose SUSE, but that is all it is, a little good PR.

That's hilariously naive. A little good PR? Well, you forget about the BIG BAD PR for the entire linux community. I will spell out for you what exactly happened: Novell (the holder of Unix copyrights btw, and a linux distributor) acknowledged that Microsoft might have valid patent claims in linux. If you haven't realized: that's pretty bad.

And I will explain it in Ballmer's words as well, if you think I'm crazy or a zealot (btw, I use FreeBSD, not linux, but care for the FLOSS movement):

The distributors of other versions of Linux cannot assure their customers that Microsoft won't sue for patent infringement. "If a customer says, 'Look, do we have liability for the use of your patented work?' Essentially, If you're using non-SUSE Linux, then I'd say the answer is yes," Ballmer said. "I suspect that [customers] will take that issue up with their distributor," Ballmer said. Or if customers are considering doing a direct download of a non-SUSE Linux version, "they'll think twice about that," he said.

Novell succeeded in what SCO failed - incriminated linux distributions. SCO was a weak proxy of Microsoft, now Novell is much much stronger - after all, it is the company that has ~20% marketshare in the enterprise linux arena.

Some people think (I'm not referring specifically to your post) that calling others zealots, because they are angry and disappointed is somehow cool. They think that they sound more intelligent if they think only inside the pragmatical/technical box. Here is another angle for those - until now, linux distributions participated in "pure" competition. What I mean is that they competed on two fronts: technical merits of the distribution, and quality of support and services. This was good, even if sometimes it got nasty (like in Oracle case). Novell tainted this with another factor: the MS patent flag. This is very bad on the long run ... unless Novell is stopped somehow.

Oh, and fuck Miguel and friends. They only care for pushing their own agenda. Last year Novell leadership was convinced that going GNOME and MONO is a good idea. Then they had to backpedal, not only because existing customers who standardized on KDE, but because there were migration plans in progress that specifically choose KDE on SuSE, and one of them was a 2000 desktop migration plan (in Europe). Then we had Miguel saying for YEARS that there are no patent issues with MONO. And now, he claims that MONO is finally safe, at least if you use Novell's linux offerings. Yes, yes, some people would say that they saw this coming, after all, he has been a Microsoft fan for some time now. And now:

So today we have secured a peace of mind for Novell customers that might have been worried about possible patent infringements open source deployments. This matters in particular for Mono, because for a long time its been the favorite conversation starter for folks that find dates on Slashdot.

Well, what about non-Novell customers, Mr. Miguel? There goes all the warning agains incorporating MONO technology into GNOME btw.

Navel staring

Between last week and this one, it is clear that the two largest software vendors in the world perceive Linux to be at least on the same plane as them. They have got to respect what we have done. Having said that, does Red Hat think either of them has taken the right approach, now that Microsoft and Novell have made 'Microvell'? They've gone off the road a bit, we think, but we are feeling good about the attention that has been brought to Linux.

Don't want to burst anyone's bubble, but to a hell-hole of a lot of people the thing that happened with Novell isn't even a blip on the radar. Novell may have gotten of the road, but in Microsoft scope it's trivial.

Sure, attention is always good and perhaps Red Hat can take advantage of that, but all this grand talk doesn't do it for me. Please just keep pluggin away at making a better product. You are getting there.

Move along, nothing to see here...

This is not about IP. This is about the freedom to meet customer needs and to create competition. That problem is, you can be either for freedom and collaboration, or you can take a different approach. These companies are trying to do both. I can at least respect Microsoft, because they don't pretend to be an open source company.

Intersting jibe at Novell. Although I agree. I've got nothing against MS' products, but their philosophy and that of "Linux" companies are diamerically opposed. I see no logic in Novell's moves at all. MS gains by improving virtualisation (and VMWARE is the real threat) for linux products.

For all it's worth though, in 5, 10 maybe 15 years, the landscape wil be totally different, and the consumer will still be able to do their work just as effectively if not more so than today.

Oh, come on...

Do you really have to go and call it 'Microvell'? It's a partnership, not a merger. Don't get them confused.

All that remains?

So, not only are they going to wipe out SUSE, but Xandros, Linspire. etc etc.

Going to be a busy year for Redhat.

The next

"Novell also takes issue with Ballmer's comments that no vendor today stands behind Linux with full intellectual-property indemnification."

That's the salvo that will be the real start of the war. The question isn't whether Microsoft will follow SCO's lead, but WHEN.

Indemm

I think the bigger news from this article is the fact that RedHat is now offering indemnification for its customers. They slipped this into their FAQ now as well ( http://www.redhat.com/promo/believe/ [redhat.com]). While I think their hand was forced a bit on this one in order to remain competitive with where the market seems to be going, its still welcome news. This has been a significant hurdle for many companies even considering whether to adopt open source. As it becomes more widespread and "the norm" that you do not need to worry about legal hassles for running Linux, more companies will consider the switch.

the real reason for the MS Novell deal ..

"now only Novell's SUSE Linux customers are the only Linux vendors that have any assurance that Microsoft won't sue for patent infringement..." Steve Ballmer

http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=200611032 01234813 [groklaw.net]

Trustworthy?

Think back to the Microsoft/Sun announcement from a couple years ago, and today, you haven't seen any of the promised technical collaboration from that partnership whatsoever.

This comment alone makes me sceptical about this article, as it is not only incorrect, but easily shown to be false. Just to give one example, anyone who has been following the development of the latest Java release (6) knows that there has been considerable technical collaboration, one result of which is that Java on Vista will be fully integrated with the GUI. Another result is the much enhanced Ms Office compatibility of Star Office. Other results are better networking between Solaris systems and Windows.

No matter what anyone's views are of Sun, Microsoft, or Java, or Solaris or Star Office, to say that the technical collaboration can't be seen is nothing more than strong marketing spin by a commercial Linux vendor, and does not inspire confidence in anything else that is said here. Linux needs better support that this!

Not only does the Microsoft/Novell agreement...

...mean nothing but Slashdot is forgetting history. Despite commanding market positions and unique opportunities, Novell has consistently fucked up every single time without fail. Most of their managers can't scratch their own arses without two mirrors and a searchlight.

Think Novell won't fuck this up again? Wrong.

Give it a year and ...

Sony Playstations will have displaced Lenovo Personal Computers as the hot-selling technology item.

As far as I know, Microsoft Windows doesn't even run on the Sony Playstation.

Linux does, though.

Yeah, but...

>> In one year, Red Hat will be all that remains of commercial Linux

Sure, but what will remain of Red Hat?

And who needs "commercial Linux" anyway?

Hey, I don't dislike Red Hat, in fact it's my favorite distro. But the idea of running a standalone Linux vendor is history. It is a dead parrot. It's nailed to its perch. It has shuffled off this mortal coil, etc. etc. etc.

with blinders on... (about linux)

good thing there is no more space for others to surface in competition.

---surface----
you can bunt too.

the reason

would be because M$ is going to ass rape Novell Suse Linux into oblivion with a flaming chainsaw.
M$ is going to pollute Linux with their poison code then sue everyone else out of existence.

I've been a loyal Suse user for a few years now, I PURCHASE, use and resell Suse Linux.
I have advocated and pushed Suse Linux commercially and personally to customers, friends and family.

But this is the end of the relationship. It is time to part ways with Suse now.
I don't want to update machines only to later discover they've been tainted by M$ code.
I am now actively researching the distros for a good Suse replacement.

I see this M$ / Novell alliance as the worst thing that could happen.
This will put an end to a consumers right of freedom to choose.
Up next, M$ buys Intell, AMD, Award & Phoenix. And for desert, M$ plans to have a double helping of Apple pie.

Excerpt from a business story that doesn't exist

CEO of Acme Inc: Our business model is seriously flawed, and these new competitors of ours are kicking our asses in the marketplace. We have serious concerns about the future performance of our stock, and we are unable to succeed at new product development.

Aren't they humble.

"Between last week and this one, it is clear that the two largest software vendors in the world perceive Linux to be at least on the same plane as them. They have got to respect what we have done."

So Linux is good, and it's *all* thanks to RedHat? No one else deserves credit.

"We still believe that we will be the dominant player in the Linux market, because by that time there won't be any other Linux players."

Do they have to take it to the point of saying 'there can be only one'? I mean that is the whole problem with MSOFT, a homogeneous market. If he stopped before the because, that would have been sufficient and appropriate, but that last bit fuels the flames of those who proclaim RH wants to be the MS of Linux. Whether or not they can is another matter, but it sounds like for this person, this is a confirmed desired path for RH's future.

Article content is interesting, but...

what comes to my mind is another blow at Red Hat's business coming on the heels of Oracle's announcement that it would undercut Red Hat's linux support pricing. I've got three words for Red Hat stock holders, sell, sell, sell. Red Hat really needs to enter a joint venture with or sell out to nother bigger company who is or wants to get into the linux business.

RedHat sounds arrogant...

Red Hat sounds really arrogant in the article. However, much of it is basically true. I was a long time Novell/SuSe support after the acquisition. I use products from both companies on a daily basis. In the past few months I have pretty much left the suse train and jumped on the red hat one. Why? All this Oracle, Microsoft, Novell news is great for market analysts who never actually will ever use any of their products. But for someone who uses them on a daily basis, red hat's products and support are far superior.

The stock can take a major hit in the short term by this sort of news, but quality products and good management (both of which red hat has) is what will keep the company alive in the long term. One year is much too short a timeframe for all this to pan out. Three years is more realistic. Oracle linux will turn into Sun's java desktop. The Novell/MS partnership will have yielded little/no technology advances. And Novell as a company may or may not have enough steam to keep on chugging in general (non-linux related activities).

Debian derivatives/Ubuntu/Kubuntu

*Those* are the distros that M$ should be shitting their pants about, since they actually are competitive to Windows on the *desktop.* If anything, an Ubuntu installation is easier than a comparable Windows and MS Office install. No licensing/key crap to worry about, and (if anything) a larger selection of built-in drivers is available. My last install of Ubuntu (on my dad's computer) took about 30 min tops, start to finish. The only slightly tricky part was installing the wlan card driver - had to use ndiswrapper. But the wlan card actually works better than under Windows now - it seemed to drop connections periodically under Windows and take 30 sec. to reconnect.

-b.

RedHat, the last Linux Distro Vendor ??? LoL

So RedHat is going to be the last redhat vendor? BULLCARP!!!! I personally believe Ubuntu is in the running, and if oracle puts out a distro, they won't just put it out and forget it. IF oracle puts one out, I hope they do a better job of patching then they do with their database products!

I have influence on what products my company supports, and I've been kinda pushing that someday we should support SUSE. Well, that recommendation ended yesterday. I'm going to recommend we NOT support SUSE from now on. Anytime $M gets involved, the only one that wins is $M. SUSE has just flushed themselves down the toilet. The Lawyers at $M are drinking champaine tonight!

Better name than 'Microvell'

How about 'Nosoft'

Well, now. . .

I can only think of one reason why Microsoft would change from their hard-tack "Open source is evil" philosophy to embracing Novell and OSS. When it comes to competing products, MS has always tried to buy, litigate, or FUD the competition. Why should this be any different? MS doesn't want to further open source any more than it wants to distribute its own source. What MS can't invent, they buy. What they can't buy, they FUD. What they fail to FUD, they disallow. I doubt they're playing fair. Remember the old saying? "DOS ain't done 'til Lotus won't run." Looks like the wolf has got a new wool cardigan.

Linux is RedHat's core business

Linux is RedHat's core business.

About the Novell/Microsoft inter cooperation agreement?

http://www.linuxtoday.com/it_management/2006110301 426NWMSNV [linuxtoday.com]
http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=200 6-11-03-014-26-NW-MS-NV-0010 [linuxtoday.com]

Robert M. Stockmann - Subject: sad Outlook for Novell
( Nov 3, 2006, 02:46:50 )

"Novell has never had a foothold in the Desktop business, why would
Microsoft allow them to gain foothold on the Desktop market? If
linux is going to get a foothold in the Desktop Market, Microsoft
will make sure they are the ones supplying it. In this way their
agenda, whatever that maybe, can still be fullfilled.

1. Munich selects Linux on the desktop, with SuSE GMBH as native
support company in mind
2. Shortly after SuSE GMBH is bought up by Novell
3. Novell is remolding the SuSE desktop by making Gnome the
standard desktop and KDE the extra option. KDE is to be outphased.
see
http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=200 5-11-04-018-26-OP-SS-NV-0067 [linuxtoday.com]

4. Microsoft officially endorses the 'Novell' version of the Linux
desktop, by funding it.
5. The 'Novell' Linux desktop is getting further adjustments to
get it Americanized, Microsoftized if you wish. Novell will be
doing all the hard labor.
6. Some BIG date will be set, after which 'Novell' (MS approved)
Linux Desktop is announced through Corporate Boards and CEO's as
the only one fit for corporate use in business. Other Linux distro
vendors will be put more and more in harms way to survive. They
will use the same arguing/advocacy like hey have used the mandatory
Outlook Agenda to have MS Exchange installed in businesses.
7. Novell Linux Desktop will in the end be able to fullfill all of
the overt and secret agenda wishes by Microsoft, or at least
hookups are available.
8. The Linux Desktop for use in business will become a new
Novell/Microsoft monopoly.
9. Microsofty will introduce a 'superior' Linux Desktop to
'Novell' Linux, and Novell will be forced out of the Desktop
Market, which is what Microsoft has always been aiming for.
10. Microsoft will starting hunting down other Linux related
commercial software companies and buy em out and destroy.

In short : Microsoft will like they have done many times: work
close with Novell, copycat essential gear from Novell linux into
Redmond Campus. When the time is right there will indeed be

SuSE always wanted to be Windows

Rant alert.

It's odd, I realized the other day as SuSE, for no reason (I moved a server to another room and plugged it into an external RAID; no other changes), decided to interrupt its boot process to detect ~12 "new" pieces of hardware-- most of which it had needed to boot)... SuSE is becoming more and more like Windows. The steaming pile of bugs that is YAST, the obtuse config files, the inconsistent behaviours (exactly the same actions have varying results). It's about like Redhat's Linuxconf from around 5.2. Under Debian, Gentoo, Redhat, Fedora, Ubuntu, if you have a problem, documentation is easy to find, but usually the config files and system utilities are plenty. Under SuSE... there's often only one way to do it, and they won't tell you what it is. If you manually edit config files, don't ever run YAST again.

So... good match for MS.

I'd be surprised...

I'd be surprised if Microsoft didn't call anything unix-flavored that it releases "Xenix".

new form of fud?

The thing that jumps out from the recent oracle news, and the M$ news is all the speculation. What are the odds
  that this is just a new form of fud?

"Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt" have been created by the bizarre claims that M$ will
somehow taint GPL'd code... the opposite is very likely going to be the case.

Or the lawsuit ideas that will supposedly clean everyone out of business that isn't running a M$, or
Cash-whole-acle version of Linux... Yeah... and software can't be free.

This is why RedHat would release indemnification, as you won't need it, and if anyone
did they would be the first ones to take the suit. As there business depends on protecting
these rights, and they have the resources to do it. Not to mention it would be a terrific legal
precedant that would put in stone the ability for businesses to make money with Open Source.
Which is good for everyone.

Watch for wolves to control their population and impact, not to run from them.

I don't know Novel's motivation but...

What Microsoft most wants is clear. It all started with the funding of the SCO lawsuit. A lawsuit meant to scare customer's away from switching to a FOSS solution. Now that it is becoming clear that the SCO lawsuit is falling flat on its face they need to raise the ante. They want to plant a seed of doubt about Linux and cultivate it for the duration of this agreement.

Notice how Microsoft is framing the agreement. As an act of Cooperation with Novel which implies FOSS. I'm willing to bet with the EU pissed off over numerous issues with Microsoft products, licenses, abuse of power etc., they want to be able to say "See, we're playing nice." without really playing nice at all.

This is phase one. Phase two comes in five or six years when the agreement expires. Even if Linux isn't infringing on Microsoft's patents in any way there will be more than half a decade of subtly implanting that doubt in peoples minds. At that point Microsoft will have to decide if they are going to start suing.

I don't know what Novel was thinking or what pressure Microsoft may have put on them. I can only speculate. Did Microsoft make it clear to Novel that the size difference between the two companies (Microsoft brings in about 100 times as much revenue as Novel.) would make a nuisance lawsuit (Like the SCO lawsuit which was funded in part by Microsoft.) would devastate Novel?

The reason I wonder this is that I don't see how Novel could have miscalculated the backlash of ill will this is going to generate toward them and the difficulties it could cause for Novel and all Commercial Linux distributions in the future.

YaY ! Thanks Microsoft

Well, some times having enemy better than having friends.

I believe this partnership will help GNU/Linux Community.

Mr. Miguel now cross hairs in all GNU/Linux zealots. He reputation drops to -666 troll. Because of this GNOME project may take hit and this is maybe fuel Desktop unification on KDE.

Because of Red Had success, those commerical boys doesn't show enough respect to us "The hard core GNU/Linux zealots". This is wake up signal to every one. Wake up guys you just earn some bucks, there are lots of hard battles ahead.

Those old DON's can't defend their turf. Even they can't hit any serious punch against Google. M$ can't produce any better code than OSS, Oracle can't produce anything other than RDBMS. They are not better than OSS, they are just Fat and Rich.

We are Penguinistas you mindless IT barons. So you got tons software Patent's. Oh WE ARE SO SCARED, come and SUE US.

Don't you ever learn someting from history. Thise FUD tactics won't work against us.

You cannot defeat us, we came after you and beat you and we take your market share pice by piece when our job finished, we raid your enterprises, we rape all your code and patents. Do what ever you do best, you cannot beat us.

We are Penguinistas, we do not show any respect other than better code.

Just so I'm on record ahead of time...

Microsoft's patent permission deal with Novell is the death knell for all other commerical Linux use in the United States (and anywhere else software patents hold sway), Red Hat included. All MS has to do is push one or two patent violation cases (easy, given the number of bogus software patents covering basic aspects of programming) throught the courts and destroy one or two non-Novell Linux using businesses, and the rest won't touch Novell's competition for fear of sharing their fate. You heard it here first.

Microsoft Reply

Emailed Microsoft with this:

At least publish what patents are allegedly infringed in SUSE, so the rest of the Linux world can evaluate and pull out anything like Mono or whatever it is that was threatened or research and disprove any allegation. Not everyone even includes Mono, because of worries about Microsoft and patents, so if that's what this is about, please just say so.

They replied:

Hello, Thank you for contacting Microsoft Customer Service. I understand that you would like the alleged infringement in SUSE be published so that Linux users may do an evaluation of it. Please provide the following information so that I can investigate your concern: 1. Please confirm if you are referring to this article: http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2006/nov0 6/11-02MSNovellPR.mspx [microsoft.com] 2. The exact address of the Web site where you found the alleged infringement in SUSE. 3. Where exactly would you like this published? Microsoft values you as a customer and I look forward to your reply.

Thank you, Glenn & Dave Escasa Microsoft

[e-mail]

Anyone want to give it a go and take the ball from here? -hehee!

Re:That's would be assuming

[nitpick]Actually it's the second, something called Abstract is the first :P[/nitpick]

Re:Linux will be darn hard to kill

The other thing is that if Microsoft actually identifies a patent infringement, the community will patch around it in short time.

I'm not sure how true that is going to be. Since software patents don't cover an algorithm but the end result of the algorithm, it's not like they can write the software to just do it a different way. They will have to actually remove functionality to escape a patent lawsuit.

Re:Suse Linux 10.1

This is a known issue. Just do a YaST Online Update (not via zen) and all will work well. To get it from scratch, download 10.1 which is basicaly the same as before, but with patches untill october 9th.

After the download, just point to your DVD for all aditional software, or point to the repositories.

If you want to use the 9.1 way, just use YaST (and even uninstall the updater). Works great as it always did.

Re:Linux will be darn hard to kill

If a patent which Novell licenses or manages jointly with Microsoft is infringed on, they might plausibly be able to obtain injunctions against rivals commercially distriubuting their enterprise products, or forcing them to withdraw support or disable functionality related to the patent.

Remove the functionality, then make sure that the code and packages "leak" out for free and are easily available on sites hosted in friendly countries i.e. those that don't have the same level of patent stupidity as the US.

-b.

Re:Linux will be darn hard to kill

Maybe it's because the United States no longer really considers itself a manufacturing nation, but I think both parties are welcoming to the concept that ideas and culture can be owned like real estate and the experiencing a licensing proposition.