Why Torvalds is Sitting out the GPLv3 Process

lisah writes "Linus Torvalds has a lot of reasons for not wanting to participate in drafting the third version of the GNU General Public License (GPL): He doesn't like meetings, says committees don't make sense, has philosophical differences with the Free Software Foundation, and seems to be generally distrustful of the whole drafting process. Though Torvalds prefers the GPLv2, he says if others prefer the GPLv3, they ought to support it because 'it's not like it kills and eats small children for breakfast, and must never be allowed.'" Linux.com and Slashdot are both owned by OSTG.

The GPL3 process is not closed

If you want to contribute to the GPLv3, you can. The FFII, for example, proposed some changes that would clarify the GPLv3 with respect to patent law in Europe (the current draft is too US-biased).

Torvalds doesn't need to contribute, but I'm glad he's moved to a more neutral stance. The GPLv2 is old and out of date and though it still works today, will start to crumble in a few years.

In every new project my firm does, we end up adding our own conditions onto the GPL3 (for instance for patents) and it'd be far better to have these defined as standard.

It's good to be critical of processes that aren't clear, and it's entirely possible that the FSF won't be able to produce a worthy successor to GPLv2, which is an incredibly important document in the history of software, but we should give them the benefit of the doubt.

Re:The GPL3 process is not closed

The GPLv2 is old and out of date and though it still works today, will start to crumble in a few years.
Please explain how a license can "crumble".

Re:The GPL3 process is not closed

Please explain how a license can "crumble".

The original GPLv2 was, in fact, printed on a giant cookie.

Re:

The original GPLv2 was, in fact, printed on a giant cookie.

Jokes aside, the GPLv2 was, in fact, chiseled into a large stone tablet. Those things most certainly crumble after a few millennia.

Re:

My people! From RMS, I bring you these eighteen... (crash!) um... twelve sections of the GPL version two!

Re:The GPL3 process is not closed

More and more people will start exploiting the loopholes in GPL v.2 (e.g. apps as web servies, so they're not technically "distributed" to the users, TiVo-esque locking of hardware to use only the company's version of the program, etc.).

Re:The GPL3 process is not closed

But for many people (Linus included) those "loopholes" are features not bugs. Those holding views can argue those features are what caused GPL 2 to be so widely adopted and that the "fixes" in v3 will cause v3 to "crumble" (ie nobody using it).

Re:The GPL3 process is not closed

... and we won't know until we try.

However, the relative lack of success of BSD despite its greater maturity during the early years suggests that making it easy to lock up open systems on proprietary hardware is not a winning strategy. Take, for example, Solaris: it was derived from BSD, but it languished inside Sun for a couple of decades and Sun didn't make many meaningful contributions to BSD. The experience with other commercial users of BSD was similar.

Re:

The history of open source is littered with BSD-based empty victories like this. Look at SPICE, it's been consumed into expensive proprietary products and has almost died as an open source product.

PostgreSQL, while an excellent product that I still use of

Re:The GPL3 process is not closed

The history of open source is littered with BSD-based empty victories like this.

Is it? I'm not familiar with the SPICE landscape, but I am with PostgreSQL:

PostgreSQL, while an excellent product that I still use often, is stagnating while MySQL slowly surpasses it in every way.

Umm, what? How is PostgreSQL stagnating? It's a widely-used product with frequent releases, full-time contributors back to the open-source core, and several commercial support offerings. What do you mean by "MySQL slowly surpasses it in every way"? If you're talking about popularity, MySQL's always been more popular. If you're talking about something technical, well, I have absolutely no idea what it could be.

Re:

Uhh, wasn't the fact that BSD was under the cloud of copyright infringement with AT&T's Sys V that caused BSD's slow usage? Linux came in right at that time to steal what could have been BSD's thunder.

At least that is how this old dude remembers it.

An

Re:The GPL3 process is not closed

The GPL was designed by the Free Software Foundation, and they made it very clear what they intended (in the GNU manifesto, etc.). By that standard, the loopholes are bugs.

In other words, the FSF's opinion is the only one that matters because it's their license. If you don't like it, use a different one or make your own. And if you already chose to use it (with the "...or later" clause), you had ample oppertunity to understand what you were getting into before you did it.

No, it's the pragmatic attitude of me.

First of all, I'm not speaking for the FSF.

Second, I have no doubt that they're trying to accomodate everyone as much as possible. However, they're not about to do something completely contrary to their stated goal, which is to make software that's free f

So what does Linus really want?

I keep going over and over this, and I still can't figure out why Linus would want Linux to be able to be Tivo-ized, but not want it BSD-licensed. Can you explain to me what it is about these specific loopholes that makes them so much more desirable than people taking your code wholesale and making it into a proprietary program?

Re:

Simply with BSD-licensed code you don't have to give your changes back, but with GPL v2 you have to Tivio or not. And that's the whole difference, simply getting the code back.

Re:So what does Linus really want?

Linus just doesn't care all that much. He hasn't learned the proper lesson from the bitkeeper incident yet apparently.

Re:So what does Linus really want?

I can't tell you what Linus is thinking, but I can tell you why I think that way.

I am a programmer. I am not a tinkerer. I care about /seeing the code/. I care that I can then use that code (or more likely ideas and tricks from that code) in my own projects. I don't care about making my consumer-grade router outpace the Cisco gear I use at work. I care about being able to make my own software on par with IOS.

The ability to tinker with a system just isn't that important to me. It's the ability to /learn/ from that system that I want. Yes, learning could perhaps be easier if I could run modified code on the device, but ultimately, simply having access to the source is what I really care about.

Re:

Yes, learning could perhaps be easier if I could run modified code on the device, but ultimately, simply having access to the source is what I really care about.

But you still need a device to run the code on. Consider the fact that in many cases (especial

Re:

And again, the problem is that there may not be a substitute device. That is, there could be amazing, incredible innovation in some GPL'd code, that would be utterly useless to you without an open mp3 player. Now, that case is actually irrelevant now --

Re:

I keep going over and over this, and I still can't figure out why Linus would want Linux to be able to be Tivo-ized, but not want it BSD-licensed. Can you explain to me what it is about these specific loopholes that makes them so much more desirable than p

Re:The GPL3 process is not closed

The significant point about 'apps as web services' will also be a loophole in the GPLv3 and any future version. It it not an EULA and so can't dictate what you do with the code once you have it.

If you are only running a web service and not distributing anything then you don't need to compliy with the GPL whatever it or any future version says.

Re:

Actually, it's now a decision the author can use or not use.

It's one of the possible restrictions that can be optionally added which applies to public use of the software requiring distribution of the modified source.

RMS has said in speeches that both argu

Two Cases

Please explain how a license can "crumble".

Two situations. First, one can have the ability to see and modify source code, but not run the program. Case in point, hardware that will only run signed binaries. Sure, you can look at the source code for your CCTV system, TiVo, etc, but you will never be able to upgrade your own devices code without the hardware keys from the vendor.

Second, ability to run the program, but not see the source code. Case in point, Google. It is beyond question that Google are using all kinds of GPL applications, from the kernel to webservers to highly modified filesystem drivers. All of it GPLed and none of the code available for you to see, despite the fact that Google allow you to use all these services online, you'll never see a line of the modified code.

Both these cases violate not the letter of the GPLv2 licence, but the spirit of it. That spirit being the ability to run the program, modify the source, and run the changed program. This is happening on small scales today. It could soon be happening on a huge scale, and that would undermine the whole FOSS community. GPLv3 will be needed in the future.

Re:Two Cases

Two situations. First, one can have the ability to see and modify source code, but not run the program. Case in

Been that way since the 80s. Nothing new. Nothing crumbled as a result.

Second, ability to run the program, but not see the source code.

Ditto.

Back almost two decades ago in college I used plenty of GNU software.

In some cases, we had access to the source, but on the machines on which that software ran, I had nowhere near enough disk quota to rebuild a modified version, let alone install and run it. In some cases the programs we had access to were modified from the GNU source, and the full modified source was not made available.

From my experience at that time, this sort of setup was very common in academia, which was typically where you found GNU software then.

The GPL didn't noticably crumble as a result, and in fact its use has expanded massively since then.

Why ? Because we still had the freedom to look at the source and learn from it, take the source (get the original unmodified source in case 2), modify it to our hearts content, and run it somewhere else. So we did.

I was able in '92 to take a whole set of development tools and applications off a big proprietary Unix box and build/port them onto a Linux PC, which I then used as primary PC for almost ten years. That is the freedom GPL gives, No way could I have done that with proprietary apps.

To follow your logic, any system on which GPL software is installed must grant all users full admin rights to allow them to modify it _in_ _place_ (and therefore you could never use GPL software burned into ROM).

RMS might think that giving everyone root everywhere is the right thing to do, but outside of MIT, in the real world, it is totally impractical. Lots of people definitely _won't_ use GPLv3 software if that is what it means.

Re:Two Cases

No. He thinks that the people who BOUGHT AND LEGALLY OWN THE HARDWARE deserve to be "root".


Well, why doesn't he _say_ that in the GPLv3 then ?

The word OWN does not appear in it except referring to "their own keys" and "ther own removal", nor does "owner" or "bought" "sell" or "purchase".

What it does say is this:

Some computers are designed to deny users access to install or run modified versions of the software inside them. This is fundamentally incompatible with the purpose of the GPL, which is to protect users' freedom to change the software. Therefore, the GPL ensures that the software it covers will not be restricted in this way.

It is very clearly about USERS and not OWNERS.

The rest of the licence backs this up - anyone you "convey" the work to has to have full source including all keys, and "convey" is defined in terms of third parties making or receiving copies of the work, nothing about ownership vs. rental.

So, either
1. RMS can't get what he thinks expressed properly in the GPL
or
2. he doesn't think what you think he does.

Given his past writings on the subject of (non owner) users having root access (info su, or google "GNU su support wheel" or similar), (2) is most likely by far.

No, it's not, and you aren't making any sense.

(You might argue that Linux is totalitarian too, but besides the point that it isnt, you can fork Linux if you think you can do better, while you cannot fork the FSF license creation process. That's why it's so scary.)

Your analogy makes no sense.

Forking the FSF license creation process is not like forking Linux; it would be like forking the Linux development model, which is equally impossible.

Forking Linux would be like forking the GPL itself, which is not only possible, but trivially easy: all you have to do is re-write it however you like, and rename it (e.g., "ACPL," for "Anonymous Coward's Public License").

He needs a Time Machine

FTFA...

For Torvalds, the controversy over the different versions of the GPL is ultimately very simple: If "I can just go back to 1992, when I relicensed Linux under the GPLv2, and ask myself: If I had the choice of licenses back then that I have today (including the GPL3 draft), which one would I have chosen? And the answer simply isn't the GPLv3. It might have been the Open Software License, though. But, most likely, it would still be the GPLv2."

I'm holding out

for the kills small children and eats them for lunch license. Dinner would be OK, too, but not breakfast.

Re:

I'm holding out for the kills small children and eats them for lunch license.

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/home/eula.mspx [microsoft.com]

A simpler explanation

Torvalds may not like the GPLv3. However, I think that is orthogonal to why he is sitting out the process. At heart, the man is an engineer/coder. How many people work as software engineers/programmers/code monkeys/whatever and jump at the shot to sit in the "politcal" meetings? Seriously. As a general rule, engineers and programmers would rather be engineering and programming. They don't care so much about marketing. They don't care so much about the political undercurrents of the organization. They just want to do their job well.

Re:A simpler explanation

I think that's part of the reason, but he also understands his high profile and doesn't want the process to be more "legitimized" through his involvement when he thinks the basic outcome was predetermined.

Re:A simpler explanation

That's obviously correct as far as it goes, but think about open source licensing for a moment. Can you think of anyone who is not fanatical about the license they picked? I know I am. At least if not the exact license, then the spirit of that license.

LT has made it pretty clear that the spirit of the GPL v3 is not the same as the v2 to him, and that's his objection. I definitely agree with that, even though I strongly dislike the v2 as well.

I suspect the real reason he has dropped out of the conversation is because he has no interest whatsoever in the direction of the v3 and the FSF has made it VERY clear that they have no intent on changing the parts he hates. It doesn't help him or them 1 iota to stay, so he left. Smart man.

"Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference."

Re:

Yes engineers wants to do their job well. And the quote "They don't care so much about the political undercurrents of the organization" is typical of engineers. But engineers gotta realize in order to make a decision for the larger group (not just themse

Even simpler

As an engineer at heart, he understands computers and software systems very well, but likely avoids and despises legal systems.

Or, put simpler: I think he simply doesn't understand it. And yes, I know that sounds arrogant, but if you remember his posts on Groklaw, he demonstrated again and again that he thought the GPLv3 demanded things that it didn't, and that he had completely missed the point of what it's actually trying to do. For instance, he actually brought out that old FUD about how disabling DRM will prevent certain security measures, which it doesn't.

I don't think Linus and PJ actually disagree, but I do think PJ actually knows her stuff, and Linus should stick to the actual coding, organizing, and benevolent dictating of the kernel itself.

That, or sometime fairly soon, we're going to actually squeeze a statement from Linus that, given the choice, he'd go with BSD or public domain. They seem more in line with his ideals.

There's a lot to what you say

It's true. Engineers, scientists, programmers, mathmeticians, etc, would rather engineer than participate in meetings and organizational politics. Often, this is accompanied by an inability to play well with others--which I suspect is the case in this inst

Torvalds: I'm going to fucking bury the FSF!

Have a chair.

"And Ode to GPLv2"

For those that didn't see it (because my submission to slashdot was rejected, between other reasons), An Ode to GPLv2 [lkml.org]:

"One of the reasons I didn't end up signing the GPLv3 position statement that James posted (and others had signed up for), was that a few weeks ago I had signed up for writing another kind of statement entirely: not so much about why I dislike the GPLv3, but why I think the GPLv2 is so great.

Rest of the post [lkml.org]

Re:

Personally, Linus's attitude to the GPLv3 has never made a lick of sense to me. He (and the others on the LKML who drew up that position paper [slashdot.org]) seemed downright Republican in their determinedness to misrepresent the opposing point of view, their reliance

it's not like he has a choice

Linus doesn't have a choice in the matter: since the kernel is under GPLv2 without an "or later" clause, he can't change it. The Linux kernel is stuck with GPLv2. For him to argue one way or the other is pointless and sounds like post-hoc rationalizing.

Personally, I think the GPLv2 will sooner or later kill the Linux kernel. Some highly successful embedded Linux systems like the WRT54G only became hackable because the manufacturers made a mistake. Evidently, embedded users of Linux just don't get the benefits of openness, and they'll get better and better at circumventing the GPLv2; the GPLv2 will turn more and more into a kind of encumbered BSD license, and you can see how well BSD did with that.

Of course, I'm not too concerned. I think we really need a successor to the Linux kernel anyway, yet the industry is happy to keep running a 30 year old kernel design. If being increasingly the target of GPL circumvention is what it takes to motivate people to move to a new kernel, that's fine with me, too.

Re:it's not like he has a choice

you can see how well BSD did with that.

Yeah, no kidding... I mean, there definitely aren't any successful [freebsd.org] BSD [openbsd.org] variants [apple.com] available and widely deployed. And there certainly aren't any other successful [apache.org] non-GPL [mozilla.org] projects [postgreqsql.org] out there. Yup, the GPL is definitely *the* only way to go if you want to make a successful open source project... assuming, that is, you're a single-minded zealot (or troll?).

I'm glad he's sitting this one out

I recognize the importance of software licenses, especially the GPL, but I've come to the inescapable conclusion that many of the major players in OSS have an insatiable need to spend enormous amounts of time bickering about licensing minutiae.

Every week brings a new drama-bomb in the endless pissing contests and personal rivalries/vendettas. If half the energy expended to one up, or argue with another developer was put into the development process, an untold number of projects might be a bit further along. One thing you can say about closed-source software is that the financial pressures end up stifling a great deal of the petty childishness that seems to pervade the OSS community, and taints its image in the process.

Don't get me wrong, you still get this sort of crap on the closed-source side of things - "I don't want to use your standard...I want to reinvent the wheel for this app..." etc, but it's not at the forefront. Human nature dictates that you will find these problems everywhere, but in the corporate, closed-source enviroment, it comes down to one conclusion - eventually the project needs to get done.

If OSS wants to gain more acceptance, it needs to put this sort of thing aside and get back to the core issue - it's the code, dammit. None of the present issues with the community are insurmountable, but direct action needs to be taken, these problems are not going to going away on their own. Rampant egoism, Not Invented Here Syndrome, coder-centric, not user-centric development methodologies...these all slow the pace of progress and paint open source in a very bad light.

OSS has a large community of smart people, and I just think it can do a whole lot better.

their differences are simple

I think Linus's difference with the FSF is quite simple.

The FSF is concerned with users. The whole thing started when Richard Stallman couldn't fix the printer driver that he was a user of. The FSF's goal is to ensure that everyone who uses software, ever, has the technical and legal right to modify the software they are using.

Linus seems more concerned with developers. If someone comes along and contributes some sweet code to the Linux kernel, he thinks it's only fair that any developer gets the opportunity to use that code too, in their own project. But he's not concerned that an end user can't install a modified version of Linux on their Tivo.

Re:their differences are simple

Linus himself rebutted your contention in his GrokLaw post [groklaw.net]:

This is not about "programmers vs users". That's a totally false dichotomy, exactly the same way it's a totally false dichotomy to make it about "DRM vs the good guys". That's not how "freedom" works (and, that's not how DRM works either. It can be used for good, it can be used for evil. It's just technology).

The thing is, "freedom" is not a thing that you can say "freedom for some people, not for others". You have to respect the people who do the work, and you absolutely have to respect their freedoms too. And you cannot and must not try to make it about some group vs another.

You're way too eager to throw away the rights of people who actually work on things. You're way too eager to say that people who worked on something for decades should just do what you want. Here's a hint: that's not freedom.

So whenever you say "freedom for group X", you're using a totally invalid argument. That's like saying that slavery was "freedom for the white people", and that I'm against freedoms, because I think your arguments are bad. Don't you see that? You can't willy-nilly try to limit the freedoms for one group versus another. That's not "freedom", that's just using a word that sounds good to make your argument for you.

So don't talk to me about "programmers vs users". That's a deeply flawed argument, and that's not how freedoms work. It's especially not how freedoms work with the GPL, since the two aren't even distinct groups. I'm a user too, and part of the whole point is that users now have the option of becoming doers.

Finally, there's a distinct logical fallacy in the argument that "users" should be protected. It's the fallacy of thinking that people who consume are equal to people who produce. And that's not true. People who produce are the one who get to decide how things are done, because they are the ones doing it. It's that simple.

This is your board, so you get to set the rules, right? If people complain that you're doing something wrong, you can tell them to make their own board, right?

That's right. That's how the world works. And it is how the world should work, because that's what motivates people to get off their lazy behinds and do something.

In other words, if you're just a user, and you don't like how you're treated, you have the choice of becoming something more. If you don't like Tivo, you can buy a regular PC, and put MythTV on it. You'll even get to use the Tivo code, thanks to the GPLv2 (not that you'd want to).

Re:

You're a user when you're using software that someone else compiled/packaged/distributed to you. You're a developer when you are compiling/packaging software yourself, whether you are the intended user or not.

When you are a developer, you get to decide ho

Malignorance

Linus has such a dislike for the FSF that he rants on these things that he doesn't even know about and what's worse, uses his position to spread his ignorance like a cancer, a malignant ignorance. Consider that he did not even know the 'meetings' took place over email and IRC. Or his repeated claims of having to give up his private key, which is shown wrong over and over by legal experts. Or saying committees don't take responsibility for decisions and then complaining that they didn't just blindly agree to whatever his kernel developers wanted.

What's interesting to me is when Torvolds says the GPL2 is where companies and open source people can meet in perfect harmony, as if companies like the GPL2. No company likes the prospect of having to open up their product because some 'tard put in GPL code without their knowledge. They put up with it because they have to, because it's a reality they can't escape. I know I have had many heated arguments about making code GPL when others on a project wanted BSD to be more 'corporate friendly'. Perfect harmony? Wtf world is he living in? Use GPLv3 and they will come and work with that too (even though they don't want to) and for the same reasons.

I think the real question is, as an open-source developer, why wouldn't you choose GPLv3 over v2? Because you want some company to use your program and then sue you because you made use of their patents? Or you want your software to make DRM devices cheaper to create? Or you want your license to be worded in a way that is ambiguous in some regions? I wonder why Linus wants linux to be licensed without patent protections, with ambiguous language, and in a way that supports DRM?

What's actually going on here "spin-free"

1. RMS and the FSF (which are one and the same for all practical purposes) talk
   about "free software". What they are truly fundamentally about is
   creating a comprehensive category of software which is completely free from
   corporate/business control, and which individual users can completely control in
   all aspects as they wish.
   
   His fundamental motivation is an anti-corporation, pro-individual/community
   point of view. The fact that the mechanism for enabling his version of
   "free software" is the GPL and a common pool of open source is
   secondary. If he could have gotten a global law enforced that all corporations
   must release all their source code freely on the Internet, that's what he would
   have done, instead of GNU and GPL.
   
   RMS is an absolutist on this point. He truly sees this as good vs. evil, and as
   a belief system about which there can be no question.
   
   To help understand this, http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID =9350 [zmag.org]
   read this interview.
   
   This is where the insistence that DRM and "Trusted Computing" and
   software patents must be abolished comes from. These are all tools that
   corporations use to protect their property. RMS does not believe they should
   have property like this... that it should all be made available to users with no
   control by corporations.
   
2. 
   Linux is also licensed under the GPL (v2), but comes from a completely
   different motivation than RMS. Torvalds simply believes the open-source
   development model is the most effective way to create excellent software.
   Torvalds is just fine with corporations and businesses using Linux for profit,
   even if that means "controlling" some aspects of its use. He
   certainly has opinions on DRM, patents, and "Trusted Computing", but
   he's not going to let those get in the way of Linux development.
   
3. 
   So now starts the struggle for control of "what is the meaning of free
   software". RMS is clearly trying to re-establish his vision of the
   principles involved by pushing through GPL v3, because he's seen GPL v2 used in
   ways that offend his principles deeply. Is it too late? Has the FOSS movement
   taken off to an extent that he no longer controls it? Stay tuned.
   

He Can Just Forget Politics

Though Torvalds prefers the GPLv2, he says if others prefer the GPLv3, they ought to support it because 'it's not like it kills and eats small children for breakfast, and must never be allowed.'"

Linus, you're never going to have a successful career in politics with an attitude like that.

Caveman, kill, eat!

it's not like it kills and eats small children for breakfast

GPL3 may not look like that, but Stallman does!!

Re:This makes sense. He's a developer at heart.

At heart, he's a developer. He'd rather be coding or debugging than getting involved in legal debate. And that's a good thing for us. I'd much rather him spend an hour working on Linux than disputing some clause of some license. It's just a more productive use of his time.

None of us, even Debian developers, enjoy dealing with legal issues. We do it because not doing so is short-sighted. IMHO, Linus often fails to understand the full scope of a non-technical problem, and when challenged, he uses "I'm apolitical" as an excuse to remain ignorant.

Linus is a decent programmer and a mediocre project manager. He's not a visionary, and I think his relevance has peaked or will soon do so. For the FSF, on the other hand, it's only the beginning. Linus is probably disappointed because the FSF won't cater to him or change its goals to suit his needs (see his complaint about the FSF not giving him early access to the first draft of GPLv3), but frankly I couldn't care less if the FSF just ignored him altogether.

Re:

He'd rather be coding or debugging than getting involved in legal debate.

Then why is he continually debating the legalese of the GPL3 draft? To me, it sounds more like he wants to be "right" but doesn't want to do anything that could put him in a position