Indian State Logs Microsoft Out 142
slack_prad writes "An Indian state, Kerala has chalked out a plan for migrating its high school students to free software platforms in three years. This was apparently in response to RMS's recent visit to the place. The education minister for the state said that the Free software guru Richard Stallman's visit last week had nudged the schools to discard the proprietary software altogether. 'Stallman has inspired Kerala's transition to free software on the lines of an exciting model of a Spanish province.' Initially, schools were given the option to choose whether teachers were to be trained in Linux systems or Microsoft. The option has now narrowed down to migration."
kerala (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:kerala (Score:4, Insightful)
Dumb.
RMS travels around attempting to persuade people/states/organisations the benefits of Free software. MS no doubt is similarly talking to the Kerela govt to persuade them to use their software.
The government makes the choice, then it's their responsibility to monitor the outcomes.
Would you suggest that MS should monitor each sale they've made where they've caused a switch to ensure there's 'real benefits' of the switch.
I know random RMS bashing is popular on slashdot, but please, try to make your trolls less stupid.
Re:kerala (Score:5, Informative)
I didnt mean to sound like I was bashing RMS, I meant it as being a good opportunity to get some decent, large-scale statistics about the benefits of free software with alternative indian states as a useful comparison, not as a demand that RMS act as an institution on his own, and that I hoped RMS or people affiliated with him use it as a chance to further the cause of free software (or learn from any potential problems with free software).
Re:kerala (Score:5, Interesting)
In this case... (Score:4, Informative)
Re: kerala (Score:2)
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The long term implications may be considered. Students may either find themselves unfamiliar with a Microsoft world in the workplace or they may drive a large changeover to free software when they go to work.
Another statistic of interest - will free software evolve fast enough? Will large groups of students, given the large supply of students, corrob
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Exactly what part of that comment was bashing RMS? Calling it a dumb, stupid troll is a bit ridiculous. The rest of your comment actually was insightful, but it's a shame to had to surround it with that crap.
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I'm sure the OP wasn't suggesting that, but MS and companies like them always make great play of case studies, and sometimes work closely with companies embarking on big projects using their software, because it helps the software co. as much as the customer, allowing them to understand how their users use the software and what they need. So yes, MS will monitor some
Re:kerala (Score:5, Interesting)
Indix, a localized GNU/Linux, is already available [ernet.in] in Malayalam [ethnologue.com], the principal language of Kerala, so they're in good shape on that score.
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Did you happen to look at some of the screenshot of Indix? Take a look here [ernet.in]. They look _really_ bad. It looks like GTK 1.x and Gnome 1.x both of which are _very_ old and outdated. Gt
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A look at the distro home page has the numerals 2003...maybe that's when it was last updated?
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the local authorities, businesses and citizens are the ones who should evaluate, choose and rate the decisions. which, i suppose, already happens.
rms is evangelizing - which is good - but it is not feasible for him to push his preferences, make decisions and overall control processes in whole world.
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The benefits RMS advocates consist of freedom to run, modify and share software. It's difficult to "measure" that. It's like asking whether we've measured the benefits we get from freedom of speech.
Note that I'm not saying that you have to value those freedoms as he does. In fact that's the point, it's subjective. If you think those freedoms are vitally important then they're going t
RMS is an evangelist (Score:2, Flamebait)
That's fine if you're interested in Free Software solely as a political tool (which seems to be the case with RMS). But if you're actually interested in the long-term viability of the model, how it is interwoven with the
Re:RMS is an evangelist (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:RMS is an evangelist (Score:4, Insightful)
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"He appears to have no interest in the practical outcome of his evangelism"
Heck! what is this vast ammount of free software [fsf.org] then?
Kerala (Score:5, Informative)
Compared to the rest of India, the state is much more advanced. It's the subject of what economists call the Kerala Enigma [utne.com].
I'm sure there are a lot of benefits. Kerala might be poised to become another IT hub in India. There are computer courses and classes almost EVERYWHERE in India. I remember when I visited my hometown this may when I was on R&R from Iraq - it's changed quite a bit over the past few years. The people are a lot more tech savvy and there's a LOT of interest in Open Source stuff - mainly due to cost benefits. Hopefully Malayalees look to Open Source as an alternative for M$ - it will be a good boost for Open source.
Malayalam Opensource (Score:5, Informative)
C-DIT develops Malayalam Open Source Software [thehindu.com]
Keli [old-lnxse], a free opentype font for Malayalam (under GNU GPL).
Malayalam Font released as 'free and open' software [hinduonnet.com]
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It [wikipedia.org] has the highest human development index and a very high standard of living, while it's economic development is sub par.
It has the highest literacy rate in India which reaches 91% [wikipedia.org]. This is much more than the avg literacy rate of India.
They have a very strong socialistic tendencies and is against any sort of monopoly which can affect the people adversely.
One of the prime examples of fusion of captilastic and democratic socialistic views.
People there have very strong views a
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Some more facts:
1. http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/01/0 7/0711224 [slashdot.org]
2. Literacy: 91%
3. Had the first elected communist government which was brought down soon after.
4. Some notable keralites
MA, Netherlands, Kerala (Score:2)
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from what i've read, i understand that it is the government aided schools that is going to have the o
now if only the uk used anything but RM pc's (Score:5, Insightful)
schools need to actually do a proper investigation into what'll actually work best rather than the idiot head teacher who's only expertise were woodshop in my case choose based on what they use at home.
Re:now if only the uk used anything but RM pc's (Score:5, Interesting)
the one making the decisions either hasn't a clue there are alternatives, or because they don't WANT
to look for them.
I've worked briefly for one of many schools where the head of IT had seen the benefits, but simply
didn't have enough experience to roll out Linux (or the other alternatives), and the school was wasting
its budget (which they could have spent on keeping me employed there
server system that had all sorts of problems. For example, to install software for the students, the
teachers had to go through a not-always-present admin at the company with the servers, THEN they
had to set the permissions themselves. Security holes and instability was still a problem when I left.
They would have loved to use something like Skolelinux, as it covered all their software needs, or
could easily have some webservices written for what was missing. Unfortunately their contract was paid
for, so they bloody well wanted to get the system working
Not just schools... (Score:2)
the one making the decisions either hasn't a clue there are alternatives, or because they don't WANT
to look for them.
All kinds of organizations, public and private sector, educational, charitable, and commercial, do the same thing. Big businesses find themselves in nasty traps because they spend huge amounts of money on centralizing their office automation tools but don't bother considering what parts of the company are
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That's a familiar story - schools waste a lot of money on MS products around here because the one making the decisions either hasn't a clue there are alternatives, or because they don't WANT to look for them.
I will say I'm just as in favor of getting rid of Microsoft as just about everyone around here...but considering that most businesses currently use MS Office, as well as a host of other MS products, that maybe the people in charge want to train the kids on what businesses actually use?
Myself, I thin
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I hear this argument a lot. The counter argument is simply that if you learn one word processor, you're stuck, but if you've learned two word processors, you've learned them all. And if you need to use any partiular feature
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No, they don't. They make their decisions on the IT field out of the greatest ignorance, you can bet it.
And even if they did for the reason you exposed (but they don't) just some practical cases: in the late 70's/early 80's, Apple managed to fill universities and schools with their Macs; Apple is still collecting benefits from that movement (they avoided bankrupcy while all the other domestic computer/os manufacters -S
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Which obviously has so much to do with the fact that almost everybody uses Ms Word *now*.
"I had spent a crap load of money and got to learn a word processor that nobody was using, I would have been highly pissed."
Yeah, children are upset everytime about what the adults try to teach them instead of what they *know* it's in their best interest
"it isn't fair to say that a head IT person is a complete moron or doesn't
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Re:now if only the uk used anything but RM pc's (Score:4, Insightful)
"schools need to actually do a proper investigation into what'll actually work best..."
Ah, classic "No True Scotsman Fallacy".
First you're operating under the assumption that they haven't performed a proper investiation.
Second, it wouldn't matter what investigation they did. You want the school to, (ahem), "investigate" until they come up with the answer you've predetermined to be the correct one. It's obvious that you want an answer that doesn't involve Microsoft, therefore any investigation which results in a Microsoft platform being preferred you'll just claim is not a "proper" investigation.
It's entirely reasonable to think that an instutition with political and financial concerns, that are invisible to its attendants, are at play here. You might think their decision is wrong, but how sure are you that the head teacher is even the one pulling the strings? I've seen plenty of situations where the person who appears to be making the decisions is really just doing what their superior has determined they should do. The person who makes decisions is seldom obvious or directly accessible to the underlings.
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An awful lot of schools in the UK haven't had RM networks for many, many years. I have been working as IT Support for schools in Norfolk (UK) for the past decade, and have seen only one RM network, and then only in passing as it was thrown out into the skip. The norm is a pure MS based network, with something like Winsuite on top if it is considered that local expertise is insufficient to set up and maintain proper security profiles, etc.
There are reasons for this. Pragmatica
Huh? (Score:4, Insightful)
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they might have made estimates and came out with figures that show big savings over a longer period of time.
or it could be that actual policy is more sophisticated and longer than the headline.
Re:Huh? (Score:4, Insightful)
I see where you're coming from - but consider, if you're in a position where you need a certain amount of control over the software you're running, then nothing but F/OSS is going to cut the mustard.
Vendor independance, ability to control your own destiny, freedom from the possibility of foreign government intervention, possibility to independantly audit code, etc etc etc.
You can write all of that in your requirements or just 'OSI approved license". *Shrug*, the second is certainly shorter....
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OSS will only provide you control if you spend a lot of money to develop for it.
You aren't vendor independent if you want support, which you'll need since none of your IT guys will know what to do with it.
Most businesses aren't paranoid enough to waste money on having code audited.
Some companies may be willing to do some support for you, but you have to pay for that.
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I was going to moderate this thread, but I couldn't pass up the opportunity to knock down so many canards in one little reply.
Rubbish, and an utter non-sequitur. You're conflating 'control' with 'custom software development'. (I was going to say 'customisation', but a great deal of customisation is often possible with little effort or expertise because of the open nature of the software and the communities that support it.)
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Define "certain amount of control." Your statement is extremely vague. I'm not aware of any user that doesn't require a "certain amount of control" over their software. Most businesses and organizations seem to operate just fine using closed source software. Are you suggesting that this high school needs the ability to modify the source co
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This can be achieved with closed source as well. I can choose a closed source OS from one vendor and any number of closed source applications from other vendors as well. Writing this in your requirements wouldn't rule out closed source software.
Actually, it does for platform. You can choose a closed source OS from one vendor, but you can never then choose a compatible closed source OS from another vendor, with the exception of DOS. So unless you're on an open source (or BSD-licensed) O
Re:Huh? (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, that all depends on who you ask, doesn't it? I don't know about school districts, but I can speak first hand about working as a mathematics instructor at a community college and being restricted to using Microsoft products. Things DON'T operate just fine. Have you ever tried to prepare a mathematical document with MS Word that doesn't look like it was scrawled by a 6-year-old? I thought not. It's fucking impossible. So, I went to our "Admin" to request her kind permission to install LaTeX on one of the sacred MS boxen. She did, and things were okay until we got new computers. So, I asked her again to put LaTeX on the new machine. Her response was, "Last time it broke the e-mail client, so I'll not allow it." Ahhhh, the genius and worldly knowledge of the MS slave. So, I prepared my documents at home, exported them to
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You have my sympathy. I wrote a paper containing equations in TeX. The equations looked very nice. Once he accepted it, the journal editor insisted on WordPerfect so that he could edit it, so I converted it (manually) to WordPerfect. The equations didn't look nearly as nice. The publisher then demanded MS Word, so I converted it again. The printer evidently used the MS word file more-or-less directly, so the published version of the paper is noticeably uglier than the WordPerfect version. By far the nicest
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Ah yes, if by 'fine' you mean 'fubar'. (I attended those schools, I know)
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Governments and goverment agencies often have other goals which they try to satisfy (e.g., "buy american"). Typically that kind of thing will slightly increase the cost, but the other goals are deemed worthy enough to make this acceptable.
There are a number of worthy goals which can be helped by adopting free software, and presumably they judge the increased cost of
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Countries like India and China can think a bit more about the long term. If I was them I wouldn't want to be paying Microsoft/UnitedStates for software forever.
They have lots of reasons... (Score:4, Interesting)
From the article: "A sting operation by Microsoft in October 2005 had not endeared the proprietary software to PC and peripherals dealers."
Remember a while back when Microsoft tried some strong arm tactics of threatening to audit schools who ran anything but Microsoft operating systems. Well.... Payback is a bitch
Seriously though, they are switching because they see the value in FOSS and Microsoft gave then a good look at the dark side of corporate tactics.
best tool for the job when? (Score:2, Interesting)
You have to take all those factors into consideration. What's the best tool? Will that tool be viable 5 years down the road, after you have committed a lot of time and money into it, or will it turn out to be an expensive white elephant, and just keep costing and costing until such a time as supporting the tool with time and money costs more than getting your original job done? MS wants you to keep the tool as the most important part, forever and ever, and keep shoveling cash
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Think about the children! (Score:1)
Why teach kids that everything in life is just one or the other. Let's have the best
Think about the training! (Score:2)
They'd have to train all their teachers and administrators in all three OSes. Many of these teachers and admins can barely manage working one type of computer and require heavy training to do that. If you're hoping they'll use these to enhance their curriculum, rather than simply teach kids how to use a compu
Re:Think about the training! (Score:5, Insightful)
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Schools are ment to make you a "normal well rounded person", which means teachers often have to teach several subjects (in my primary school we had 6 teachers whole, most of them had a PC in their room but they weren't even remotely familar with them). These teachers are a jack of all trades and a master of none. They don't much care for computers and use them only when they have to and act just like t
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And that's where a lot of teachers are. I've been through an MAEd program, and one at a halfway decent college. A lot of my classmates in that program would have needed a LOT of training to master three OSes. I took a class on technology in curriculu
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Teachers are supposed to impart knowledge to our kids. If the teachers are unable to learn new stuff then the kids would be better off being given a book to learn from. Teachers have to be able to explain what they are trying to teach. If the teachers simply learn parrot fashion
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Deciding that all teachers shall learn three OSes is not "fixing the fundamental problem." It's ignoring the problem and thinking that if you proceed as if it's not there, it will go away. You need to fix the fundamental problems FIRST, then you can can focus on making sure all teachers are super-computer-literate. Because that's not one of the fundamental problems.
The fundamental problems are more things like tea
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Wrong question. Here's the right one: what are the schools teaching?
I spent some time doing tech support at a few secondary schools once, and I observed what passes for 'IT' lessons. The teachers don't know how to use Windows, let alone the pupils, and they certainly aren't teaching them anything about Windows. What they do is teach them h
Re:Think about the children! (Score:4, Funny)
I forsee (Score:4, Funny)
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If they're doing this after a visit from RMS, I doubt that cost is the only consideration in their decision.
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MS's Indian HQ is providing a lot of jobs. And India seems to have lots of Visual C# programmers. Not to mention that Visual Studio 2005 shows photos of ONLY Indian people during installation - suggesting the biggest market target for VS2005.
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Teach both (Score:2)
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It would be sort of like buying a set of gasoline busses to transport children to school, and a set of diesel ones, and letting everyone choose which they want to take. Totally unfeasible, which is why some high-ranking school official consults some experts and decides
skollinux (Score:2)
RMS must be getting better (Score:3, Funny)
Kerala will now be known as ...... (Score:1)
Seriously it probably doesn't hurt that RMS looks like an Indian Sadhu with that hair of his. Congrats RMS (or RMSji)
I belong to Kerala and know it will work (Score:5, Interesting)
The Govt was always receptive to Stallman - way back in 2001, I was the the capital and RMS had a seminar over there. He had put on a long robe and a CD around his head as halo and announced himself as prophet stallman - or to that effect, I dont remember.
But the crux is people at Kerala are ready to put that extra effort needed for moving on to Linux
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He got you: It's obviously the "I put on my robe and wizard hat" thing.
Whew! (Score:2)
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They should switch to Open Source. (Score:1)
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This is education? (Score:4, Insightful)
Any actual educator would want their students to become familiar with many different kinds of computers. They would have a bias against Microsoft, of course, because MS systems don't permit the students to study much of the system's innards. Apple would also be fairly low on the list, since their software's inner workings are somewhat more accessible to students, but not as accessible as most of the alternatives. The list of accessible systems would rate linux highly, of course, but not a lot better than the various *BSD systems or OpenVMS. Or OpenDOS, for that matter. And the iTron system should be on the list, as the world's major open real-time system.
OTOH, I suppose those Americans and Europeans worried about a takeover of the computer industry would applaud this decision. A cohort of students who grow up knowing only linux would be nearly as damaging to India's computer industry as if they knew only MS Windows. OK; not that damaging, but damaging enough.
Of course, enough schools in America and Europe are MS-only right now that we can look forward to a general loss of dominance in computing, as schools graduate students who think that computer expertise consists of knowing how to make Word docs and Powerpoint presentations.
A real educator would more likely reject them all, and set their students to the task of building their own computer system, following the precedents of Tannenbaum and Torvalds (and the Berkeley gang). They'd have a lab with a few of each available system, for showing what has been done and asking "How could we do it better?" But they'd put the emphasis on learning by doing.
But having only linux in a school makes about as much sense as, say, having only Honda in the auto (driving and shop) classes. OTOH, having only Microsoft computers would be like having only drivers' ed classes using Honda; the "shop" classes would only read about cars but would never be permitted to open up an engine compartment or remove a dashboard.
Sorry; that's not a real education program.
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> computer system, following the precedents of Tannenbaum and Torvalds (and the Berkeley gang). They'd have a
> lab with a few of each available system, for showing what has been done and asking "How could we do it
> better?" But they'd put the emphasis on learning by doing.
I don't think that "build your own and do it better" is a good starting point for computer education.
It would first re
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Before you can say anything intelligent about what kinds of computers/OSs are needed, you have to be clear as to what you want to use them for. What is appropriate depends on the application.
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Actually, these are primarily infrastructure decisions, and they are properly based on cost/benefit over the lifetime of the infrastructure. It's incorrect to suggest that such decisions are either pro- or anti- education. They are neutral with respect to education.
More correct than the tired auto analogy, I think, would be if the decision were to standardize on a certain type of lighting system for school buildings which only lets students read books printed o
Why restrict it to one platform? (Score:3, Insightful)
I realise that schools have other priorities (eg. teaching reading, math, science, history, etc), and limited resources, not to mention that having computers in schools isn't always primarily to teach about computers. It's a shame, however, that children can't be trained using multiple platforms.
I feel I have a much better appreciation of computers, and feel more comfortable using them, because I appreciate the differences between things like Windows, Linux distros, Macs, Amigas, even DOS, and whatever else. (I'm sure many people here could run off a long list.) I know what I prefer to use for different tasks, and I know why I prefer it..
Restricting teaching to one OS and accustomising students to one way of doing things doesn't seem like preparing them to make their own choices at all.
I predict (Score:2, Informative)
Free Software (Score:2)
Its about software freedom.
For RMS and the Free Software movement, what's "best for the job" is not nearly as important as what helps and guarantees freedom.
RMS and people in the Free Software movement, believe that there is no room for software that takes away the freedoms of the user. And its important to teach kids in schools just that, so that they know to respect those freedoms as they grow older as well.
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There is at least one license [ucsc.edu] which some of us feel actually accord users greater freedom than the GPL, yet Stallman doesn't advocate it...if anything, he's In the same way as Stallman himself does, you've actually said here that the only type
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You talked about using your own brain, so maybe you should try doing it too.
The "which license is more free?" is a silly semantic question and its answer depends on your definition of freedom and who it applies to.
The question "which license is more free?" may instead be phrased: "which license's popularity makes it more possible for people (en-masse) to view, modify, and redistribute copies of their software".
The BSD style license allows people to redistribute lock-
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The thing is, these technical short-term advantages may and will cost you a lot in the long-term.
Of course, each person must do his own goal-oriented balance. If someone does not care at all about freedom, he is free to go join North Korea. If someone does not care much about software freedom, he is free to use closed-source software.
You must remember, though, what long-term risks you are entailing.
For example, Photosh
better article on newsforge (Score:2)
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You can't have both: wiping out 3rd world debt is inherently harmful to the US whose economic policy is based on the availability of poverty-wages around the world, which in turn are caused by the local economy being a mess. It's not alway's the US's fault that it is a mess - local corruption is a big player but on the other hand a lot of local corruption is supported by the US and US companies - but it
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Dell is learning the economics of support at a "competitive price" right now as customers have discovered that the quality of Dell's support has slipped.
"And for various reasons, they can produce products at a lower cost than they can be produced in America."
Various reasons? I think you'll find all of those reasons to be related to being a poor country easily exploited by the western world.
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"click start, go to programs, go to internet, internet expolorer" or "click K, go to Applications, go to internet, konqueror browser" are for all intents and purposes the exact same thing
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The people who'd have problems with linux are the same people who would have problems with windows these days
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After using Windows only since 3.1 days, last month I had to reinstall XP due to HDD failure.
No problem, I have been good about back-ups, etc., so would just be an afternoon's task, right?
Uhmm...I fell victim to that WGA crap this time around-kept telling me I had pirated software.
My copies of XP Pro (all three of them) are legit retail versions- still have the sales slips.
I have fought with MS many times in the past- I'm a gamer, and frequently format and reinstall the OS (on average about twice