Indian State Logs Microsoft Out

slack_prad writes "An Indian state, Kerala has chalked out a plan for migrating its high school students to free software platforms in three years. This was apparently in response to RMS's recent visit to the place. The education minister for the state said that the Free software guru Richard Stallman's visit last week had nudged the schools to discard the proprietary software altogether. 'Stallman has inspired Kerala's transition to free software on the lines of an exciting model of a Spanish province.' Initially, schools were given the option to choose whether teachers were to be trained in Linux systems or Microsoft. The option has now narrowed down to migration."

kerala

A quick google shows that Kerala has a population of 33 million people, so (depending on how many are in school) this could be a fairly big test to see how useable linux is in this sort of environment, especially with other indian states as a control. I hope RMS is not just talking it up and has some real plans in place to measure the benefits that are thought to be possible.

Re:kerala

I hope RMS is not just talking it up and has some real plans in place to measure the benefits that are thought to be possible.

Dumb.

RMS travels around attempting to persuade people/states/organisations the benefits of Free software. MS no doubt is similarly talking to the Kerela govt to persuade them to use their software.

The government makes the choice, then it's their responsibility to monitor the outcomes.

Would you suggest that MS should monitor each sale they've made where they've caused a switch to ensure there's 'real benefits' of the switch.

I know random RMS bashing is popular on slashdot, but please, try to make your trolls less stupid.

Re:kerala

RMS travels around attempting to persuade people/states/organisations the benefits of Free software

I didnt mean to sound like I was bashing RMS, I meant it as being a good opportunity to get some decent, large-scale statistics about the benefits of free software with alternative indian states as a useful comparison, not as a demand that RMS act as an institution on his own, and that I hoped RMS or people affiliated with him use it as a chance to further the cause of free software (or learn from any potential problems with free software).

Re:kerala

You have a good point and I, too, hope that (a) this experiment works and (b) it's well documented, whether it succeeds or fails. If it succeeds, obviously, it's great ammunition for future debates. If it fails, then it'll be an excellent opportunity to evaluate the shortcomings and try to address them rationally.

In this case...

In this case, I think he will be successful. The mentality of Malayalees is very different compared to the rest of Kerala. They are highly politically aware - in fact, the first thing they will do every morning is read the paper - you can see it all over Kerala. They are highly involved with what goes on in the government. Also due to the fact that Communist parties are strong in Kerala, there is a socialistic trend and as a result they're not too fond of Monopolies. Recently they banned Coca Cola because of issues with contamination - they weren't passing certain tests. RMS picked a good environment to push foss.

Re:kerala

Indix, a localized GNU/Linux, is already available [ernet.in] in Malayalam [ethnologue.com], the principal language of Kerala, so they're in good shape on that score.

Re:RMS is an evangelist

I don't think you give RMS credit. Sure, his public appearances and talks focus on evanglism. However, he and the organization he built do a lot more than cheerlead for free software projects. As others have pointed out, one person only has so much time available, and only a fraction of that in the public eye. Just because he focuses on one aspect doesn't mean he's not interested or not working on other fronts as well.

Re:RMS is an evangelist

Whatever. It's easy to criticize RMS, except that his ideas have turned out to be wildly successful, and he will be long-remembered. I enjoy the benefits of OSS every day, even though it doesn't meet all my needs like he wishes it would (and so do I).

Kerala

Kerala [wikipedia.org] - the state with the highest literacy rate in India. And one of the two states with a democratically elected communist government.

Compared to the rest of India, the state is much more advanced. It's the subject of what economists call the Kerala Enigma [utne.com].

I'm sure there are a lot of benefits. Kerala might be poised to become another IT hub in India. There are computer courses and classes almost EVERYWHERE in India. I remember when I visited my hometown this may when I was on R&R from Iraq - it's changed quite a bit over the past few years. The people are a lot more tech savvy and there's a LOT of interest in Open Source stuff - mainly due to cost benefits. Hopefully Malayalees look to Open Source as an alternative for M$ - it will be a good boost for Open source.

Malayalam Opensource

Just to add. Kerala already has a presence in the open source community:

C-DIT develops Malayalam Open Source Software [thehindu.com]

Keli [old-lnxse], a free opentype font for Malayalam (under GNU GPL).

Malayalam Font released as 'free and open' software [hinduonnet.com]

now if only the uk used anything but RM pc's

my schools network is pure hell and the school is half a million quid in debt because it never works, and they refuse to hire more tech to fix it due to lack of money, ironically the staff are pro linux/mac but the stupid headteacher is a Microsoft bitch.

schools need to actually do a proper investigation into what'll actually work best rather than the idiot head teacher who's only expertise were woodshop in my case choose based on what they use at home.

Re:now if only the uk used anything but RM pc's

That's a familiar story - schools waste a lot of money on MS products around here because
the one making the decisions either hasn't a clue there are alternatives, or because they don't WANT
to look for them.

I've worked briefly for one of many schools where the head of IT had seen the benefits, but simply
didn't have enough experience to roll out Linux (or the other alternatives), and the school was wasting
its budget (which they could have spent on keeping me employed there ;) on an expensive terminal
server system that had all sorts of problems. For example, to install software for the students, the
teachers had to go through a not-always-present admin at the company with the servers, THEN they
had to set the permissions themselves. Security holes and instability was still a problem when I left.

They would have loved to use something like Skolelinux, as it covered all their software needs, or
could easily have some webservices written for what was missing. Unfortunately their contract was paid
for, so they bloody well wanted to get the system working :P

Re:now if only the uk used anything but RM pc's

"schools need to actually do a proper investigation into what'll actually work best..."

Ah, classic "No True Scotsman Fallacy".
First you're operating under the assumption that they haven't performed a proper investiation.
Second, it wouldn't matter what investigation they did. You want the school to, (ahem), "investigate" until they come up with the answer you've predetermined to be the correct one. It's obvious that you want an answer that doesn't involve Microsoft, therefore any investigation which results in a Microsoft platform being preferred you'll just claim is not a "proper" investigation.

It's entirely reasonable to think that an instutition with political and financial concerns, that are invisible to its attendants, are at play here. You might think their decision is wrong, but how sure are you that the head teacher is even the one pulling the strings? I've seen plenty of situations where the person who appears to be making the decisions is really just doing what their superior has determined they should do. The person who makes decisions is seldom obvious or directly accessible to the underlings.

Huh?

I love to use and code Open Source stuff as much as the next guy, but shouldn't schools/governments be worrying about the best tool for the job instead of making blanket statements like "100% open source by 20xx"?

Re:Huh?

I love to use and code Open Source stuff as much as the next guy, but shouldn't schools/governments be worrying about the best tool for the job instead of making blanket statements like "100% open source by 20xx"?

I see where you're coming from - but consider, if you're in a position where you need a certain amount of control over the software you're running, then nothing but F/OSS is going to cut the mustard.

Vendor independance, ability to control your own destiny, freedom from the possibility of foreign government intervention, possibility to independantly audit code, etc etc etc.

You can write all of that in your requirements or just 'OSI approved license". *Shrug*, the second is certainly shorter....

Re:Huh?

Many, many school districts in the US run Windows and things operate just fine.

Well, that all depends on who you ask, doesn't it? I don't know about school districts, but I can speak first hand about working as a mathematics instructor at a community college and being restricted to using Microsoft products. Things DON'T operate just fine. Have you ever tried to prepare a mathematical document with MS Word that doesn't look like it was scrawled by a 6-year-old? I thought not. It's fucking impossible. So, I went to our "Admin" to request her kind permission to install LaTeX on one of the sacred MS boxen. She did, and things were okay until we got new computers. So, I asked her again to put LaTeX on the new machine. Her response was, "Last time it broke the e-mail client, so I'll not allow it." Ahhhh, the genius and worldly knowledge of the MS slave. So, I prepared my documents at home, exported them to .PDF files (since the bloody MS boxen couldn't even read postscript files), took them to work on a disc, and printed them out on the school computers using the single useful program installed on them --- the free Acrobat reader.

They have lots of reasons...

I gather that they have looked at this carefuly but there are other reasons as well.

From the article: "A sting operation by Microsoft in October 2005 had not endeared the proprietary software to PC and peripherals dealers."

Remember a while back when Microsoft tried some strong arm tactics of threatening to audit schools who ran anything but Microsoft operating systems. Well.... Payback is a bitch ...

Seriously though, they are switching because they see the value in FOSS and Microsoft gave then a good look at the dark side of corporate tactics.

Think about the children!

Why does it have to be one or the other? How about some PCs with Windows and some with Linux. Not all machines have to be Microsoft OS/Office/Outlook/etc. but at the same time why migrate all machines? I know, I know, to save money but how about saving some money (most money perhaps) migrate a good chunk of machines to Linux and teach the kids commandline, Open Office, free software and still let them use Windows as well.

Why teach kids that everything in life is just one or the other. Let's have the best of both worlds. Heck, let's throw some Macs into the mix as well.

Re:Think about the training!

Ah, that old straw man. Are schools teaching computing or Windows? All the basic skills they need to use any computer GUI can be taught with Linux just as well as Windows. In fact, having variety will make the students much more comfortable with the idea that things move and so in order to find the setting you want you need to hunt about a bit. People worry about the time to retrain users but you can put a Windows user on a Mac and within an hour they will be able to function and quite possibly be as capable as they are on Windows within a day. Most people who claim to know Windows really don't know much beyond using a bit of Office (badly) and the file manager. I say to people that if they can use a keyboard and a mouse they can use a Mac and the same is true of Linux, especially in a supported environment where all they need is to be able to do their work and someone else will keep it running. Sure, for home users Windows may be the best option (well, no, it isn't, buy a Mac, but that is another story) but where you don't have to run the system yourself you should be able to cope with whatever you are put in front of. At our site we have a mixure of Windows, Linux and Macs and the only people who really have problems are the PA and secretarial types who really don't know anything about their computers and function by remembering where stuff is. Move anything and they panic. Everyone else, the younger more computer literate types are happy enough on whatever they get. There is no benefit teaching students where to find something on version X of Windows, teach them what to look for based on what it is that they are trying to do and when it moves they will still be able to function.

Re:Think about the children!

I agree. There should be that one Windows computer in the back of the classroom that takes 5 minutes to boot and then crashes an hour later because all the spyware pop-ups have run out all the memory. That would be the example for why all the computers in the classroom run something else. ;-)

I forsee

I foresee a massive discount for a certain Indian state by a certain U.S. company...

Teach both

Diversity is a good thing. Students and teachers should have SOME experience on Linux and Windows boxes. Let them make their own decision about which is truly "best for the job."

skollinux

I wonder if they're going to go for a school biased distro, although I don't suppose it will matter. Would their choice then lead to other bigger and better things such as using Linux at the firewall/router level also? I'm sure they'd want to use squid. It'd be very nice to see India become a linux house. I better brush up on my Indian though.

RMS must be getting better

My old company (the OSF) had a visit from RMS once. He spent the whole week with some wierd GNU logo stuck to his forehead which I think frightened my boss. I hope, like Linux, he's more user friendly these days.

Kerala will now be known as ......

GNU/Kerala?

Seriously it probably doesn't hurt that RMS looks like an Indian Sadhu with that hair of his. Congrats RMS (or RMSji)

I belong to Kerala and know it will work

I am originally from Kerala..the mentality of the people there is quite unique from anywhere in India. Almost totally against all forms of monopolies. It may have done lot of harm to the economy, but Keral booted out CocaCola when it allegedly did not meet the stringent quality tests. BMW was also stopped from having a factory there over working conditions.
The Govt was always receptive to Stallman - way back in 2001, I was the the capital and RMS had a seminar over there. He had put on a long robe and a CD around his head as halo and announced himself as prophet stallman - or to that effect, I dont remember.
But the crux is people at Kerala are ready to put that extra effort needed for moving on to Linux

Whew!

For a second there I thought the headline read "Indiana State Logs Microsoft Out".

They should switch to Open Source.

The schools need something more complex, it's just not working what they have at my school. Nearly any kid with half a brain about computers can get into our school computers without the security software. It takes about 2 minutes and you're in, totally unmonitored and no extra security features. If they had Linux on there, it would be much harder, because probably 1 in every 100 kids has even used a Linux operating system at my school. Mainly because "It's crap" and "My iPod doesn't work on Linux!", they're too ignorant to do any research, and will end up with a more safe computer experience. Choosing operating systems for some is the same as those people who go and buy the most expensive speakers they can find, then use a little tiny amp that puts out no power... it's a waste, they don't check the alternatives and what good other stuff will be for them. The pure fact that Microsoft is the most popular operating system in homes is the main reason they should not use it. More people understand how to abuse it, how to make it work the way they want, not the way it was meant to be used.

This is education?

An obvious observation here is that however they decide such a question, the decision is profoundly anti-education. Anyone with the slightest interest in education would start by rejecting the dichotomy that the only choices are Microsoft and linux. And deciding on only one means that you have no intention of allowing your students to get a real education in the subject.

Any actual educator would want their students to become familiar with many different kinds of computers. They would have a bias against Microsoft, of course, because MS systems don't permit the students to study much of the system's innards. Apple would also be fairly low on the list, since their software's inner workings are somewhat more accessible to students, but not as accessible as most of the alternatives. The list of accessible systems would rate linux highly, of course, but not a lot better than the various *BSD systems or OpenVMS. Or OpenDOS, for that matter. And the iTron system should be on the list, as the world's major open real-time system.

OTOH, I suppose those Americans and Europeans worried about a takeover of the computer industry would applaud this decision. A cohort of students who grow up knowing only linux would be nearly as damaging to India's computer industry as if they knew only MS Windows. OK; not that damaging, but damaging enough.

Of course, enough schools in America and Europe are MS-only right now that we can look forward to a general loss of dominance in computing, as schools graduate students who think that computer expertise consists of knowing how to make Word docs and Powerpoint presentations.

A real educator would more likely reject them all, and set their students to the task of building their own computer system, following the precedents of Tannenbaum and Torvalds (and the Berkeley gang). They'd have a lab with a few of each available system, for showing what has been done and asking "How could we do it better?" But they'd put the emphasis on learning by doing.

But having only linux in a school makes about as much sense as, say, having only Honda in the auto (driving and shop) classes. OTOH, having only Microsoft computers would be like having only drivers' ed classes using Honda; the "shop" classes would only read about cars but would never be permitted to open up an engine compartment or remove a dashboard.

Sorry; that's not a real education program.

Why restrict it to one platform?

Initially, schools were given the option to choose whether teachers were to be trained in Linux systems or Microsoft. The option has now narrowed down to migration.

I realise that schools have other priorities (eg. teaching reading, math, science, history, etc), and limited resources, not to mention that having computers in schools isn't always primarily to teach about computers. It's a shame, however, that children can't be trained using multiple platforms.

I feel I have a much better appreciation of computers, and feel more comfortable using them, because I appreciate the differences between things like Windows, Linux distros, Macs, Amigas, even DOS, and whatever else. (I'm sure many people here could run off a long list.) I know what I prefer to use for different tasks, and I know why I prefer it..

Restricting teaching to one OS and accustomising students to one way of doing things doesn't seem like preparing them to make their own choices at all.

I predict

that the state of West Bengal will follow suit soon. Kerala and West Bengal are ruled by the same party's government, and a decision of this level usually comes from their central politburo.

Free Software

Its not about what is "best for the job".
Its about software freedom.
For RMS and the Free Software movement, what's "best for the job" is not nearly as important as what helps and guarantees freedom.

RMS and people in the Free Software movement, believe that there is no room for software that takes away the freedoms of the user. And its important to teach kids in schools just that, so that they know to respect those freedoms as they grow older as well.

Outsourcing Revenge

The education minister for the state said that the Free software guru Richard Stallman's visit last week had nudged the schools

We get even by outsourcing our trolls (RMS) to India :-)
 

There goes the Window's tech support base.

They'll know how to use a computer for more than point and click. Then they will be overqualified for Windows Tech support. Or they'll have to increase their wages. Nah, Don't see Bill giving up more money.

better article on newsforge

A much more comprehensive article [newsforge.com] about this decision and its background context is on Newsforge.

Re:Turn About Is Fairplay

Yes, I'm all for wiping out 3rd world debt, but I'm also for wiping out the economies that harm the U.S.

You can't have both: wiping out 3rd world debt is inherently harmful to the US whose economic policy is based on the availability of poverty-wages around the world, which in turn are caused by the local economy being a mess. It's not alway's the US's fault that it is a mess - local corruption is a big player but on the other hand a lot of local corruption is supported by the US and US companies - but it is almost always in America's interest to keep poor countries poor.

And, anyway, I would love to see all Indian call-centres closed down. Hell with it: I'd love to see call centres closed down everywhere. They exist mainly to further insulate the people in a company who make the real decisions from their customers and their reactions and difficulties with those decisions and make it hard to complain to anyone who can actually do anything about it.

Re:Turn About Is Fairplay

You know, I know its flamebait, but I think I need to point out that harming microsoft does not equal harming the USA, nor its economy.

Re:You're witnessing a failure of the US economy.

"The fact of the matter is that the US economy was unable to provide support center services at a competitive price."

Dell is learning the economics of support at a "competitive price" right now as customers have discovered that the quality of Dell's support has slipped.

"And for various reasons, they can produce products at a lower cost than they can be produced in America."

Various reasons? I think you'll find all of those reasons to be related to being a poor country easily exploited by the western world.

Re:Turn About Is Fairplay

That's total nonsense. You can teach a monkey to click-and-drool their way through a GUI. And KDE is not a whole lot different from windows on that front.

"click start, go to programs, go to internet, internet expolorer" or "click K, go to Applications, go to internet, konqueror browser" are for all intents and purposes the exact same thing

Re:Responsibility

You obviously haven't used linux recently.

The people who'd have problems with linux are the same people who would have problems with windows these days