Lotus Notes For Linux To Be Released By IBM

gamigad writes "According to ZDNet, Lotus Notes 7.0.1 will be released for Linux. Availability is expected to be on July 24. It ain't gonna be a free lunch, tho" It's going to be based mainly on the Eclipse framework, and it does appear that you'll be able to swap a Linux version for a Windows or Mac version if you so choose.

Can't be a bad thing

One less reason to use Windows for those who need/want Lotus.

Re:Can't be a bad thing

I'm glad to see a native version, but Notes always worked very well under WINE for me. See what can happen when you write only to the published API?

Actually, it's a good thing,

since a lot of Companies have refused to switch to Linux because of the perceived lack of software in this type of area.

I know of several IT Department heads for Fortune 500 Companies that have asked for software that matches MS Echange / Lotus Notes for Linux before they would concider switching to Linux desktops.

This is also the first step in IBM actually putting their product line behind their public stand of supporting open source operating systems, not just their money into open source projects.

The biggest drawback is the eclipse framework. Eclipse's java requires sun's jvm which conflicts with gjc. Open Office requires gjc in linux for 100% functionality, sun's jvm won't cut it.

Re:Actually, it's a good thing,

Eclipse's java requires sun's jvm which conflicts with gjc. Open Office requires gjc in linux for 100% functionality, sun's jvm won't cut it.

You don't have to use Sun's JVM. According to the Eclipse 3.2 Project Plan [eclipse.org], there are all kinds of other supported JVMs, e.g. IBM's, HP's, etc. Other VMs might work, they are just not officially supported and tested.

I know for a fact as well that the Red Hat folks have been successfully compiling Eclipse with GCJ also.

I'm not really sure why you claim that the JVM conflicts either. You can drop a JRE into eclipse/jre and that's what the launcher will use to the exclusion of anything else.


Mechanik

Screenshots

http://edbrill.com/ebrill/edbrill.nsf/dx/hannovers creenshots.html [edbrill.com]

Not free?

From the summary:

It ain't gonna be a free lunch, tho

I don't this will be a blocking issue for the people who choose to deploy notes. I am very glad I don't have to use it any more.

Too little, too late

This comes severely late, in my opinion. The Wine [winehq.com] and the CodeWeavers [codeweavers.com] people have put work into running Notes on Linux.

IMHO, it would've been better if IBM had put this investment into Wine so other applications had profited as well. A proper native compilation along with some polishing for the various desktops could've made this "achievement" years earlier. Think Google's Picasa [google.com], which was nicely ported to Linux this way, and runs like a charm.

No! Nooo!

Let me just be the first to say...

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Okay, now I feel better.

B

Re:No! Nooo!

AMEN, BROTHER!!!

There are not words in the English language to describe how much I am in utter comtempt for Lotus Notes. I once composed a three-page list of ways in which Lotus Notes sucks. Most of it was a list of client bugs and inconsistencies, because I didn't have much experience with the server itslef.

Later, I tried developing a simple agent that would compose an e-mail, taking information from fields stored elsewhere, and sending it out to a list of people. I never could get the damned thing to work. (Too long to explain here.) To this day, I'll write code in javascript, php, VB, C#, perl, whatever. But I refuse to touch Lotus Notes. Period. Even the most trivial of tasks are insanely complicated. (Okay, to be fair, I won't write Gimp scripts in Scheme, either.)

I'm sorry, and I am not a Microsoft lackey, but I'd take Exchange/Outlook over Notes any day. I'd rather use GMail as a corporate communications solution than Lotus Notes. Hell, I'd rather use yellow sticky notes on monitors than Lotus Notes!

As for the server, our entire Notes infrastructure has to be rebooted once a week at my company. (A very large MNC...) Once a frickin' week! No other application has that requirement. If SAP told us, "Yeah, and you'll have to reboot the SAP servers every Sunday night," we'd have their heads on a plate. But for some weird reason, Notes (which is just as critical to our business) gets away with it. Half the servers usually don't come back up without intervention, and our wonderful Notes server crew doesn't actually bother to check, so our operations center has to call them. Plus, we're constantly having to deal with mail servers crashing in the middle of the day, and the only explanations we get are, "It's a Notes thing. It just glitches like that sometimes." As you can tell, I have no particular fondness for our Notes support team, but they're not unique. I've worked at two other companies that use Lotus Notes, and the exact same thing happens at every one of them.

And to the "It's not really an e-mail system, it's a collaborative database application development environment..." people out there, go to hell. No, it's not. There's no such thing as a "flat database." It's called a frickin' table, and it's useless. If it were relational, maaaybe. But then if it were relational, I still wouldn't be using it, I'd be using Oracle, or MySQL, PostgreSQL, even MS SQL Server. You know, something competent.

So it's an awful e-mail system, it's an awful development environment, it's an awful database system. Let's see, that leaves... oh right. NOTHING. Lotus Notes has absolutely no useful value whatsoever. Q.E.D. Companies that use it (speaking from experience) are using it not because it's the best solution to their needs, but because they've invested a lot of money in it. (Which, by the way is STUPID. They're ignoring the cost going forward, which is the only relevant factor that should be considered!) If IBM really had their customers' best interest in mind, they would simply send out letters to everyone saying, "We're sorry, but in six months, we're going to stop supporting all version of Lotus Notes and never release another." Maybe even open-source the code so that maybe competent people can maybe turn it into something semi-useful.

Re:No! Nooo!

I don't have time to deal with all your problems, but I'd like to make a point about reliability...

Restarting your Domino servers once a week is not right. Domino doesn't require that. That needs to be looked at.

So - do you actually know why they require restarts?

It might not be Domino.

Seriously.

I manage a number of Domino servers in my job. Some of them have to be restarted at least once a month, often because they've begun to degrade massively in their performance - or worse, they've crashed.
The other servers are fine, and will run for months before they get restarted - and they're restarted because of OS patches or other maintenance, not because of problems on the Domino server.

Why is this? Well, one word - McAfee's Groupshield. The servers which run it require careful care and occasional kicking. The servers that don't need Groupshield on them don't have it, because it's a PITA which causes us grief.

We'd like to move away from Groupshield, but it requires lots of evaluation/testing/piloting, and we have other projects to be getting on with.

And don't think I'm singling out Groupshield. I've seen some abysmal backup programs, content security programs, and other third party add-ins in my time. Don't even think about mentioning ArcServe, for instance. Basically, lots of 3rd party software talks to Notes/Domino via the C/C++/COM/Java APIs it exposes - and not all of them are particularly well written.

Your experience with the Domino servers is not typical of others. There may be a specific cause for that - if not technical, then management or procedural. But I do find it very difficult to give your grievances ANY credit when you espouse rubbish like this that can so easily be explained, yet is related with so few details that it is difficult for anyone to easily check the facts.

EEEeeeew!

While I've been forced to use Notes on Windows in some of my gigs, I'd prefer to still use PINE, thank you very much. This isn't a piece of software I would *choose* to use, but something I might use rather than having a an additional machine just to run Windows and Notes. Note: I am a unix systems administrator.

Notes is well known for its 'unique' interface. too much repetition? Why does this post have too much repetition?

IBM internal

I am speculating here, but I think this might have big consequences inside ... IBM.

AFAIK, Notes was the single big piece missing to allow desktop transition to Linux inside IBM. I would bet that the more geeky IBM employees that were stuck on Windows because of Notes will change.

And maybe in the future the company will encorage this.

If you consider the sheer size of IBM its no small deal for Linux deskop usage...

Just speculating though... Is there any IBMer wanting to comment?

Re:IBM internal

IBM, like most large organizations, has a standard desktop image running Windows. Actually, about 30 of them if you count the site-specific customizations. This has been called c4eb, or Client for eBusiness for several years. I first saw the Linux version in late 2001. Now, in what seems like a fork, a new standard Linux desktop, OpenClient 1.0 or something like that, has gone GA. I've run several iterations under VMware workstation to track its progress and functionality. I've used this Eclipse-based version of Notes. It is bears no resemblance to the full client you are used to. Problem is, my guest still swaps even after I give it 512MB, particularly after I loaded Notes. It is huge. But as the new Linux desktop continues to mature, I'm sure I can expect to come across more than one or two people a year running it as their primary desktop, as has been the case so far.

Hope this helps.

Why bother?

Linux-based systems already have browsers that can run this [google.com].

Like Notes

I was a Lotus Notes administrator for Duke University - and even though I can see how at first glance the end user and IT admin would hate it - I don't I really like it actually. Great account management and features. It's all proprietary, but I think Notes is a great technology, and now runs on more platforms than Exchange.

Late, but still interesting...

As much as it nicely rhymes with "Bloated Goats," for mobile users, the ability to stow your documents in an encrypted, replicated data store is worth rather a lot.

It represents a decent answer to the "oops, someone stole my laptop at the airport" problem in that it offers both a quick recovery process and some protection that the stealers should not get at your data.

I'll be very curious as to what happens with respect to document management, whether they'll be supporting OpenOffice.org, or if there's either some other strategy (SmartSuite for Linux???), or a lack of strategy...

Great News

This is good news. The Microsoft front-line is getting a battering from all sides at the moment, while the Nix parties are getting stronger with more support by the day. And Lotus Notes can only reinforce that position against the Vole.

NOoOOOoootes

Yeah....Lotus Domino has run on Linux for a Loooooooong time, so all that was missing was the client. Great, now more people will be using it...job security for you Notes admins, I guess.

it is free to move to Linux from Windows/Mac

The Notes client isn't free or Free (although many applications that run on it are - see openntf.org) however if you have a client license for Windows or Mac then you can use it on Linux at no additional cost. In fact the licensing is per person, if you have a Windows machine, a Mac and a Linux box or three then you can use your Notes ID on all of them at once if you like. If you are using Notes already, then moving the desktop operating system to Linux is most certainly a free lunch.

People are missing the point

I'm more excited about moving Notes to the Eclipse framework rather than the aspect of Linux support. Not that Linux support isn't important, but moving to Eclipse is going to mean that the general usability of Notes is going to get better for everyone regardless of the platform that they're on.

Hell, as someone that has to use Notes, I'm salivating just at the prospect of the better view/window management that Eclipse provides. Eclipse is an extremely flexible and customizeable framework, and the lack of such customizeablity has been hurting the usability of Notes for a long time. "What do you mean the preview pane is fixed to be at the bottom of the screen? You mean I can't dock it at the right? ARRRRRGH!". Etc.

If the people on Notes start following the Eclipse Way (TM), things will only get better from here.

Mechanik

Ed Brill, the guy quoted in the story is a blogger

Quite a prolific blogger, and very good at it too, his blog is at http://www.edbrill.com/ [edbrill.com] and he talks about this announcement here http://www.edbrill.com/ebrill/edbrill.nsf/dx/notes -on-linux-announcement?opendocument&comments [edbrill.com]

This is fantastic!

Say what you will about Notes/Domino, but it is a very powerful platform than most realize. I look forward to the MS-Exchange vs. Notes/Domino wars. Thus Linux (and OS X) become more available platforms in many corporate settings which is good for everyone. And please remember, when you 'dis' Notes/Domino, you 'dis' some highly-intelligent programmers at Lotus/IBM who probably make you look like a script kiddie! I can't wait to see the evolution when Notes/Domino 8.0 arrives on the scene..I think MS is going to feel more heat from the competition.

Re:This is fantastic!

Nobody argues that it isn't a very powerful platform. Lotus simply suffers from an extremely poorly designed UI.

Resume

There's a reason I leave my experience with Lotus Notes off of my Resume.

Lotus Notes on Linux is unstable

I work at a place that is in the process of migrating from a Windows platform to a Linux platform for their Lotus Notes 6.5.5 environment. The problem with Notes on Windows is that Windows is unstable. The problem with Notes on Linux is Notes becomes unstable. There are also all sorts of Gotcha's... like the way backups work. Administrative rights are funky too.

But the Mac client sucked.. not sure about 7.x tho

The mac client was resource hungry and sluggish.

Lets hope Notes 7 is an improvement over 6.x for any other platform than Windows...

Our company moved away from Domino and onto Exchange 12 months ago and it has allowed Mac enthusiasts to run Entourage 2004 which totally rocks under the Mac. The new service pack delivers native Exchange/AD/GAL in Entourage which was a welcome change.

I've been aware of this work for a long time now..

..and have been on design review teams and other sorts of preview programs for the "Hannover" release which is the thing that generated the work itself. This isn't Hannover (which is Notes/Domino v8) but it stems from that work.

What most people don't know is that Notes was always built to be ported. It is MOSTLY portable code. Only the user interface calls themselves -- which have always been kept apart from the rest of the code -- is platform specific. This concept of a "Separation Layer" has been in the server and client since the earliest days of the product back in the early 90's. The UI port to run within the Eclipse framework (which IBM has been a huge part of) was much easier than anyone expected.

The best news -- for those who run the product anyway -- is that this isn't a "Port" or a "reworking" of the code. This is the same secure, stable, code. It's not just "compatible" its the actual code so there won't be problems of compatibility between versions running on different operating systems. The only potential issue will be that locally stored applications will be case sensitive on Linux but not on other platforms. Sloppy programming practices then will be highlighted if users run local applications that haven't been tested on a case sensitive operating system. This has long been true on the server side.

You may or may not like the product -- that has no value in this discussion. About 120 million people use it every day, and for those people one major barrier to moving toward a linux workstation has been lifted.

Although...

While I can see this as one more reason not to be tied to Windows, TBH I'd rather tell my boss that no, Notes simply won't work on Linux, so in the process of migrating we will simply have to use something ... ANYTHING ... else. ;)

WHAAT?

"One less reason to use Windows for those who need/want Lotus."

You expect organizations that STILL have not gotten rid of Notes to ditch Windows????

As a former Notes developer...

...I think this is more than six years late.

By now, the web has matured to such an extent that there really aren't many reasons anymore to keep using fat (Notes) clients, and currently I see more projects migrating away from Notes than towards it.

Also, over six years ago a Linux version was mentioned, and when it came out it was only the Domino server. And this time? Will IBM release both user-client and development-client, or will developers be left in the cold again?

That said, some of the aspects of Notes development are sheer genius (it is really easy to whip up a quick form-driven database). Other aspects plain suck (manually guarantee relational integrity/too slow).

This is not a cause for jubilation

All of you who are excited about this for some reason, let me reassure you that the beta testers I talked to who'd seen this were *screaming* in pain.

Just when you thought Notes couldn't *possibly* be any slower, buggier or more bloated, they did this to it. It's horrendous. Fortunately I've left IBM and won't have to deal with their crap any more, but I weep for the friends I left there.

I don't know what the hell that team is on, but they seem to be totally out of touch with reality, other human beings, and any semblence of an interface design team.

the 7.X release is not based on Eclipse

The "Hannover" Release, scheduled to come out next year is built upon the Rich Client framework IBM built using Eclipse as the foundation. The 7.X release is the current version. Windows, Linux, and Mac was part of the client release plan for Hannover, but this gets a native Linux client out long before than. Along with the Mac client coming in 7.0.2 later this summer, that gives people 3 client platforms to choose from.

Open Client?

What about a GPL Notes client, so people wanting to deliver "Web" services from Notes servers can use or research the client code necessary to connect?

The irony of using Ozzie's tool against Microsoft

had to play at least some small part in this: the CTO and to-be Software Achitect at MSFT created Notes [slashdot.org], and now IBM will help enable the (very sizable) install base [wikipedia.org] to have one less reason NOT to migrate desktops of most "knowledge workers" away from MSFT tech.

S http://meanbusiness.com/ [meanbusiness.com]

Get out of the client business

The notes server isn't bad - its fast, easy to configure and administer and runs on everything (I've even seen it running on mainframes). IBM should license the users at the server (which they do), and provide linux/windows libraries to connect to the server. The Notes Client is obselete by 10 years at least, clunky non-standard graphical interface, slow, heavy resource use, prone to crashes etc.
 
Its time for IBM to let Evolution and the other great mail clients out there to talk to Notes - Release the access library as closed source if you must, or open source it, either way let people write there OWN client.

IBM is moving albeit slowly

IBM makes some cool stuff. We have a "lifeboat" CD that actually installs a redhat derivative over the network, and configures all the applications (notes included) and vpn. It is fairly slick, although it is really geared towards the average employee. At work (IBM) I run Ubuntu, some people run Fedora, and others Gentoo. Some of the highlights of IBM technology include one of the coolest printer config systems ever. It is amazing how easily you configure the printer via Firefox. I guess if I had a single complaint about the company it is our love of RPMs, but with alien all can be made right. The pre-release Notes client for linux is slow but they are working on it, in the meantime running it within Crossover Office is fine by me. I have never been told what to run at the office, I suppose if your manager didn't want you messing with Linux they could forbid it, but really don't mess with you unless you are infected with a virus, or running a switch or hub in your cube without manager approval. I have worked a few places and IBM is by far the most Linux friendly, excited about moving forward place I have been. I can't think of a day someone didn't talk about Linux, or how much they hate ATIs crap support for Linux.

As for Notes being a necessary evil,,, well I feel this is an issue that comes down to groupware vs email. If you are in the give me Pine or give me death camp, Lotus Notes is going to drive you mad. If you are in the Gmail camp Lotus Notes is likely to be your enemy. If you are an employee that lives and dies by a calendar, and meetings, then Notes is a friend. The UI arguments are more of a it could better, but most people will live with it and never know the difference.

Re:the horror

Concur. Anyone who has been forced (and hopefully few have volunteered) to administer lotes shudders at the thought of it. It was the worst adminning experience I've ever had....

That's because Notes isn't an email client

It's really a development platform, more akin to MS Access on LSD.

Both have since been largely superceeded by web based apps.

 

Re:the horror

notes is the BPOBC (biggest piece of bloated crap) i've seen,

I don't like it either but the alternative where I work now is SMB, email, word, visio and explorer. Notes has the right idea of delivering a unified environment for documents. Its a shame that the UI is pretty bad and poor reliability tends to give it a bad name.

OTH the OS it ran on (OS/2 then window98 back when I used it) gave it a really bad name. Perhaps deployments on Linux will be a genuine exchange killer.

Re:the horror

Good god man, if you are only using it for email then you are wasting space. Lotus Notes is for COLLABORATION! It allows you to create workflow apps which are truly quite impressive. Something I have not seen done with SharePoint or anything else. The security and encryption features are impressive. I'm not a huge fan of Lotus Notes but I can seen the advantages.

Bottom line it comes down to what you are trying to do.