Linspire CEO dispels Linspire Linux Myths

An anonymous reader writes "Chances are that you think Linspire lets you run Windows applications, that you have to run it as root, and that it's really not quite a proper Linux. Wrong, wrong, and wrong. At LinuxWorld in Boston this week, CEO Kevin Carmony explained what Linspire Linux is, and isn't all about. Carmony said that people are still getting these things wrong. Yes, in the beginning, Linspire had the goal of letting Linux users run Windows applications with WINE, but it dropped that theme years ago. As for requiring you to run as root, that was, Carmony said, only the case with an early alpha release that was never put in the public's hands. As for not being a real Linux, that's nonsense, too."

Linspire does actually run as root...

...By default. When you install Linspire, it sets you up as root by default. I know this because I supported it from Lindows 4 to Linspire Five-Oh. You have to go and manually add a user account, should you want one. That said, it is actually a lot more secure than people make out. There _is_ a lot of FUD about Linspire. For grannies and people who can't be bothered with technical things (including me, sometimes - I just want things that work) it's great.

Re:Linspire does actually run as root...

By install, I mean after installation, you're logged in as root by default. So the user has no idea they are root - they just are. (Although a box does appear the first time they switch on saying 'Make a user account').

With regards to viruses, you'd have to drop to a terminal, chmod u+x a downloaded file, and ./run it. Does the average Linspire user know what that means? No.

Re:Linspire does actually run as root...

Even easier, mail them a .desktop file and tell them to open it [gmane.org].

Linspire doesn't equal linux?

I don't think anybody ever thought it wasn't linux, just that it was a CRAPPY version of linux. I also don't think too many people thought about linspire in terms of OS, more in terms of questionable politics.

Re:Linspire doesn't equal linux?

"I don't think anybody ever thought it wasn't linux, just that it was a CRAPPY version of linux."

That's bullshit-ese for "they dare to charge for their product".

I've been using Linspire for years; it's my third try at Linux (after Mandrake ver 7 and Lycoris Desktop L/X). It's stable, has lots of eye candy, runs KDE, and install and runs much Linux software with one click, thanks to Click 'N Run, the killer Linspire application. It supports many Internet file formats automatically, and lets me use my computer DVD player without becoming a pirate (per US laws).

I understand the OS is a bit slow loading, and some OS'es may be a bit quicker in spots, but this doesn't bother me much at all. Linspire is MY choice for linux; YMMV.

Really, these religous wars among distributions doesn't do Linux as a whole any good...

Getting ahead of themselves?

Aren't they getting a bit ahead of themselves trying to dispel 'common myths' about Linspire when the vast majority of people have no idea what it is, let alone whether its main goal is to run Windows applications?

Uh... okay

But here's the important thing. There's, like, ninety-six linux distributions. I already know that Ubuntu is friendly when you don't want to spend a lot of time configuring things, and Redhat is friendly to people in suits. But why the heck should I care about this one, Linspire? What, if anything, differentiates it from the other ninety-four linux distributions I don't personally have a use for at the present time? Because if there isn't a good answer to that question, it needs to go get back at the end of the line.

Installing programs is SUPER EASY!

I just set grandma up with Linspire. I did the initial install and yes, it is easy but still not something I would let grandma do herself. I wouldn't let grandma install any OS by herself.

The part where it REALLY is easy is software installation. They have a system called CNR (Click and Run) which costs $20/year, but it is well worth it. You get a icon on your desktop that you can click, then browse software categories. When you find something you like, just click the install button and voila, CNR downloads it, puts an entry in the Start menus and puts an icon on the desktop. No other distro that I know of does this with such ease.

Intersting statement from TFA

Linspire also doesn't rely on downloads, subscriptions, or box sales for its revenue. Instead, Linspire's bottom line relies upon two things. The first is sales of Linspire-equipped PCs.

"I don't care about how many people download Linspire or buy our boxes in the stores. What I care about is how many people bought a computer with Linspire on it," [Linspire CEO] Carmony said.

I'm not really sure what to make of this statement.

It strikes me as somewhat... odd. Especially coming from a CEO.
Maybe someone can put my vague feeling into words.

Re:Intersting statement from TFA

The reason BeOS failed (so they calim) was that microsoft strongarmed vendors to not sell machines with BeOS preinstalled (MS: If you sell machines with BeOS, you can't sell Windows machines anymore). Retail sales of an operating system of todays magnitude doesn't pay the bills. Not even close.

Re:Intersting statement from TFA

"(MS: If you sell machines with BeOS, you can't sell Windows machines anymore)"

Well I think it was more like "If you only sell machines with Windows preinstalled, we'll give you a discount on the purchase price" ... so anyone trying to move away from selling all their machines with windows (either selling blank machines, or selling machines with another OS installed) was instantly less competative on their windows machines, locking them in :-/

So yes in a way I guess it was like saying "you can't sell windows machines anymore", but more "we're gonna make it difficult to".

Re:Intersting statement from TFA

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Be_Incorporated [wikipedia.org]

"Ultimately the assets of the corporation were bought by Palm, Inc. for US$11 million in 2001, at which point the company entered dissolution. The company then initiated litigation against Microsoft for anti-competitive business practices, specifically the prohibition of OEM's to allow dual-boot systems containing both Microsoft and non-Microsoft operating systems. The suit was settled in September 2003 with a US$23.25 million payout to Be, Inc."

Re:Intersting statement from TFA

Translation:

Many people download Linspire
Implies: geeks are using Linspire
Conclusion: who cares, nothing new

Many people buy computers with Linspire on them
Implies: regular, 'non-geek' people are using Linspire
Conclusion: increase in Linux adoption

Re-tree

Many complaints I hear about moving over to unix like systems is the filesystem hierarchy. I think for a really easy-for-noobs and for grabbing windows users, I'd like to see a patched distro where /dev, /proc, /sys etc are moved to (for example) /system. Put them all together and move them where the users knows they're not gonna need to go into.

Could even have a chrooted dir with mount --binds to make a seperate namespace for unpatched/closed source apps.

We really could do with tidying the root. Yes it breaks compatibility with unpatched software, but as it is breaks compatibility with users.

(let the flaming commense)

Re:Re-tree

Already exists :D

Check www.gobolinux.org

Re:Re-tree

I would say that root is a place that users never need to go into. A user's home directory is the only part of the computer they ought to mess with. Ideally, a noob will never know about the directories above /home/yournamehere unless they decide they want to learn some stuff and muck around with the guts of their system. The current way puts the user's zone in its own litte branch of the file system, which is pretty much the same as hiding the rest of the system in a subdirectory, except instead of knowing not to enter the dreaded system folder, users don't even have to be aware of it (and they can't rm -rf * it). A user should never ever be messing around in root. That's why a normally configured system doesn't even let them do more that look at it. It's true that most home users will at some point need to be their own admin as well, but in that case, it doesn't much matter that the system files are right there, since the admin is working with them anyway.

Re:Re-tree

Many complaints I hear about moving over to unix like systems is the filesystem hierarchy. I think for a really easy-for-noobs and for grabbing windows users, I'd like to see a patched distro where /dev, /proc, /sys etc are moved to (for example) /system.

Check out MacOS X sometime. If you use the Finder (the GUI), you see your drives (technically, a partition on a drive, but they are displayed with a drive icon). Clicking on the main one shows you four directories: Applications, Library, System, and Users. However, if you bring up the terminal and cd to the root directory, you see all the other Unixy directories, along with the four named above.

Thus, newbies who don't bring up the terminal never see the Unix directories, people who want to can still do it, and software don't have to be patched.

Seems to me...

My impression is that Lindows/Linspire has always been viewed as outside the world of "real Linux" because:

1) None of the ultra-user-friendly commercial distros have ever really caught on with the Linux enthusiast community.

2) Linspire's business plan has alwasy been based on charging users for installing sofware, something that is free everywhere else in the Linux world.

3) As #2 illustrates, there's always been something sleazy about Linspire. They appeared, making ludicrous claims about Windows compatability, stepping on Microsoft's trademark while prominently advertising rebadged KDE apps as their own, and they've been like that ever since. They may not do anything wrong but it's always ... off.

Re:Seems to me...

3) As #2 illustrates, there's always been something sleazy about Linspire. They appeared, making ludicrous claims about Windows compatability, stepping on Microsoft's trademark while prominently advertising rebadged KDE apps as their own, and they've been like that ever since. They may not do anything wrong but it's always ... off.

So...you're saying it's the used-car saleman of the linux world?

Re:Seems to me...

Actually, Microsoft didn't win - when it was clear from some of the judge's rulings that they were about to lose the "Windows" trademark in the United States on the basis of genericness, they decided to buy themselves out of the litigation they initiated by paying Lindows/Linspire $20 million.

Technically it was a settlement, but it's rare that the plaintiff pays off the defendant in order to get out of a case.

Gnu/Linux for some people

I have read in the past some of this guy posts at Ubuntu forums (yes he sometimes open/reply threads there) and let me say he raises some good questions in several areas, in general i would say he manages to perfectly justify making a distro for dumb/proprietary human beings and recognizing Linspire is not a perfect distro ,neither one destined to every single person out there.

Kudos for him at least for being modest and realistic.

Off course i will never use Linspire , Ubuntu plus a extra repos to the sources.list works fine for me.

Secret shake

"Some people seem to think that Linux is a secret club, where you have to pay your dues before you can learn the secret handshake and run it."

Dude, dont even mention the Secret Shake! It's supposed to be a secret.

consumer reports...

didn't like lindows at all... they reviewed the Walmart Lindows pcs. If you have a CR subscription (or know someone who does) it's a good article to read from the standpoint of understanding what still stands in the way of mainstream acceptance of these distros.

The biggest problem of Linux desktop adaption

is not usability or hardware support or people having trouble installing linux. The big problem that somehow noone really figures is the lack of applications. The lack of commercial applications, especially.
There are a lot of kinds of applications where OpenSource works great. "Standard" stuff like mail clients etc. But the more specific an application gets the more it is likely that it is commerically developed. Photoshop, Games, Autocad, Dreamweaver etc. etc. And even then there are some issues concerning application deployment, especially if the source is not available...

Carmony is great

Seriously, Carmony really seems like a decent guy. Listen to him [lugradio.org], you'll see what I mean. The Slashdot smart asses usually crap all over Linspire's quality, security, morality, business model, and so on and so on, but give the guy a chance, he's not all bad.

Re:Carmony is great

LOL! Ah, a blast from my programming past (a very short-lived past!). But...let's put this in perspective though...that code was written almost 25 years ago!!! There weren't even hard drives when I hacked that code. It was put together on the very original IBM PC with 64K of memory and floppy drives. So, yes, duh, of course it was written in Basic, about the only thing you could hack with on those original PC's. My degree is in Business, and the only formal training I ever had was DP 101 in college. I've never professed to be a coder. But, that code that I hacked was used by 25% of all video rental stores to check customers in and out in its day. I turned it into a very substantial business, which I later sold for a great deal, and that business is still around today, 20 plus years later! How many of you can say that? =) Kevin Carmony

myths?

just the fact that they've set out to dispel these myths, the fact that they ever, in any incarnation were ever actually true, is just a sad testament to their alignment and beliefs in the community.

they aren't a real gnu/linux distribution because their business model and principles don't fit in with ours.

they ever thought a superuser by default setup was good? who are you?

lets repackage the apt repository and start selling .deb's! seriously?

i've looked at the distribution, it looks like they've taken quite a bit of time to rebrand common applications, line openoffice and gaim, to be "linspire" applications. all that effort, or at least 95% of it should be put into doing something new and helpful for the community.. do something useful.

sheesh.

Long Overdue

After reading TFA and reading about CNR, all I can say is... great. I had written off Linspire when I first read about it - the wine stuff that I knew was impossible and buggy... etc. But the philosophy is a good one: bring Linnux under the hood on a polished, housewife/housewide audience - not just the hackers.

I wish him all the best. Now I'll get back to trying to my dkpg-reconfigure and apt-get'ing the latest Ruby Gem from unstable while not upgrading my Standord C libs.

Linux Needs DRM to Succeed

Something they don't mention in that article:

"Linspire's chief technical officer, Tom Welch, agreed that his company would definitely consider DRM."

http://news.com.com/DRM%20key%20to%20Linuxs%20cons umer%20success/2100-7344_3-6058790.html?tag=techdi rt [com.com]

MjM

The reality of Linspire

In reality, no OS has achieved the status of so simple yet so useful that grandma/sister/computer-novice can use without assistance.

I have some experience being the family IT support guy and got so sick of cleaning our viruses, spyware and other junk from my sister's computer that I bough her a computer with Linspire 4 on it thinking that it was the easiest Linux for her to adapt to. In the end, I can't say that it was any better or worse than any other distro. The Click-N-Run concept is a good one but it is was very poorly executed. It certainly *did* encourage users to run as root and was a PITA to set up as a multi-user system.

However, when things went wrong (as they do with any OS/Distro/computerized thing), I found that Linspire did things differently enough that it was very difficult to troubleshoot the problem, find help online and you ended up fighting with a system that tried to second guess you with automated scripts ... sort of like dealing with Windows sometimes.

In the end I switched her to another distro (Ubuntu) and now have just as many problems but I don't have to pay a subscription fee and, if I don't know the answer myself, I can find answers online extremely quickly since it doesn't deviate too far from upstream.

So all the power to Linspire in achieving that "easy enough for a novice to use" status but since we're not there yet, I would stick with a more maintainable distro like Ubuntu or Fedora Core.

good stuff

People on Slashdot often speak of Linux as if it's a finite resource: that if Linspire takes off, it must mean distributions like Slackware or Debian or Gentoo are losing users. That's not true at all. Linspire's target market is a niche previously untapped (not even by Ubuntu or short-lived Caldera) of people who just want a workstation with a web browser, a word processor, a calculator and maybe solitaire. All the power to to Linspire for doing this. There's room in the Linux world for this. I think they're doing a useful thing, and if they come up with some good, non-crippling ideas that improve usability, perhaps other distros will benefit from their innovation one day too.

Funny how things change

It was only a short time ago that Michael Robertson, CEO of Linspire [slashdot.org] said "I defy anybody to tell me why is it more secure to not run as root. Nobody really has a good answer. They say 'oh, yeah, it is!', but it really isn't."

Installed it for the wife...

I installed it on my wife's computer and my best friends,(both windows zealots), because they were constantly asking me to clean their computers. They would not use the tools they were given to work safely so... Linspire, and no more issues. I used wine to install IE for the wife because her job requires her to use IE only sites, other than that, it's all linux. they uses firefox at work, and the differences between OOO2 and ms office threw them at first but after a few, we do that this way...(kind of like going from office 95 too office 2k), they were both fine. Linspire pays it's mp3 tax and has a dvd player built into the distro so you have all the stuff they need. Plug in an HP multi-funct printer and scan, file, fax away . I don't use it because it is "behind", stable yes, but behind the bleeding/edge curve I like to stay on... :)

Linspire

I own a copy of Linspire, I actually paid money for the 4.5 release. I wanted to try it out. They made programs that use Microsoft Windows format files like their own Media Player and iTunes type programs. They offer a lot of FOSS and Commercial Programs via the CNR (Click N' Run) program, and it also does the updates as well.

I switched distros. Linspire, while based on Debian, disables the apt-get and rpm tools. I found a way to activate them, and install a gcc compiler to compile programs etc. Only I found out the hard way that the CNR libraries are behind the apt-get and rpm libraries and it causes a problem with Linspire reporting that non-standard libraries are installed. It was a picture of a man being hung on his own underware or something. I was told that only CNR install methods are supported by tech support.

CNR is fine for the noobs, it makes getting Linspire programs as easy as clicking on them. It requires a monthly or yearly subscription though. For a noob willing to pay for access to software and doesn't require learning how to use chmod and command line tools like apt-get and rpm to install software, it is a good deal.

I switched to many distros, Debian, Unbuntu, Kanotix, Knoppix, and finally Red Hat Fedora. Red Hat Fedora is good enough for me, I learned how yum works and I am compiling programs and using rpm as well. I set up my own web server, but I have prior experience with Linux.

The whole goal of Linspire seems to be making it default on retail PCs, like at Walmart. Linspire has tried to get the cost of a PC down to $300, because Linspire does not cost any more than $50 to sell and it includes OpenOffice.org and Microsoft Windows and MS-Office can cost $300 or more of a system price.

There have been times when Linspire offered their OS free via BitTorrent via promotions.

Still I have set up friends with Red Hat Fedora because it does not require a subscription to update the OS files, and it is easy enough for them to use.

Linspire... Not for the average geek.

I think that linspire fulfils a niche in the market for the people who want:

1. Something that looks like windows and is just as easy to use, but don't want all the viruses, etc.
2. Something that they feel that they can trust (I'll explain in just a bit)

Now, I personally think That ubuntu fills the first requirement for these people, but doesn't fill the second requirement for all these people in that it is a community developed OS. How do you know that it isn't something put together by a bunch of hackers meant to turn your computer into a zombie and delete you windows and all your... erm, pictures? Now, you and I know that that isn't the case, and Ubuntu is one fine linux distrobution, but people who are new to linux don't seem to understand that a shiny shrinkwrapped box doesn't always mean a good operating system. Now, these people's reasoning is that if they buy this thing called "Linux" from a respectable company like Linspire (and what a fine name, too!) that they will be safe. Hey, it even comes with a service that lets you download all sorts of software (even if it comes with a monthly fee). Now, show somebody like this Synaptic (for example), and they would say, "Hey, how could I know that these's things aren't viruses?". Good question. They might also say, "Hey, where's my start button?", "How come I can't watch these flash movies?", "How do I listen to my mp3s?". Linspire aims toward the user that just wants to send emails and play flash games and write up papers and not worry those evil bogeymans called 'viruses' and 'spyware' that he hears about all the time. And it does a fair job of it.

Having said that, I don't agree with a lot of their business practices, like not even bothering to come up with something from scratch but rather just taking Debian and putting a fancy click n' run program in there and a shiney "launch" button that takes up 1/3 the screen. (No really, it does! sort of.) They went through the KDE source code and took out every reference to KDE that they could find and put something more neutral in it's place, like replacing "Konqueror" with "Linspire file and web browser". (Note: i'm not really sure, that's just what it seemed like).

I don't think that any desktop linux will succeed until they can get it installed on OEM machines en masse. The installation is the scariest part about using linux, IMO, and if we can eliminate that part there's just a few things left to deal with, like lack of nice commercial games.

Linux, onward march to domination!

it is unfortunate they dropped wine

I would really love to have usable wine... It really seems like there isn't as much steam behind that project as there should be. It would be cool if some of the major OS vendors (apple, sun, redhat) started putting some resources behind that project.

Supposedly wine has pretty decent compatibility already... but making the software *run* is a bitch. The wine team needs to spend a little more time making their software easy to configure and run for common uses (video games).

Running as Root

The very first sneak preview of Linspire didn't have ANY way to add users, but we never released that commercially. That first sneak preview didn't have a lot of things in it! Not sure it even printed. =)

What Linspire does is during the install it has you first set up your Admin Password (root) and THEN takes you to a screen where you can add users, right during the install's install Wizard.

Kevin Carmony
CEO & President, Linspire, Inc.

No cigar...

I installed Linspire on a second PC to prevent my web-surfing family from compromising our Windows box (which sits in the corner cut off from the Internet).

Linspire installed easily, and recognized most of the hardware. We have achieved our objective, and I don't spend week-ends extirpating malware.

However, it took me three hours to install a @#$% HP P1000 printer. And I have to do it again because Linspire lost the printer after a recent upgrade.

Funny, the browser crashes regularly on Linspire. Our second 120 GB hard drive is sitting empty because I can't find the damn thing. What's Linux for "dir *.* /s"?

Plus, the developer's kit couldn't even link a "Hello World" program. And Roberts wants us to develop for him? Bah!

For the record...

For the record... I didn't set out to "set the record straight about Linspire myths." (That was just the fancy spin this reporter put on his story. =) I simply gave an address at LinuxWorld called "Desktop Linux Adoption by Mainstream Consumers." During my address I made mention to a few of the things that consumers DEMAND which Linspire provides, which then create problems for some in the Linux community. For example, we support DVD, MP3, Windows Media, Real Audio, QuickTime, Java, Flash, ATI drivers, nVidia drivers, etc. We do this because most consumers won't touch Linux without these things (heck, I wouldn't!) Most have iPods and other MP3 players and want their computer to work with them. They have DVD's and want their computer to play them. Linspire pleads guilty to supporting all of this out of the box, and for that, we're not always understood. If I really wanted to dispel myths about Linspire, I'd have started right here on Slashdot (I read more misinformation here than anywhere about all sorts of topics, not just Linspire =). Kevin Carmony CEO & President, Linspire, Inc.

DCC, Debian

As for not being a real Linux, that's nonsense, too. Linspire Five is a Debian-based Linux, and the company itself is a leading member of the DCC Alliance.

Actually the DCC is quite a mess, trying to get Debian or a subset thereof LSB-conformant, with LSB beeing an even greater mess. And Debian is not a member of DCC, and not at all happy about the use of their name in that regard.

With advertisments of this kind, no wonder there is a lot of disdain around. Practically with the opening sentence, he confirmed my prejudices.

Linspire,lindows,and fools

Linspire,is just a mercenary piece of work i.e,find a water well,hire guards to protect it,find people willing to pay to drink the water,when there are free water wells,with much better water within plain sight.
    So did yo Mama raise a fool?

Michael Robertson = Poor Bill Gates

The reason why Linspire are having to explain this about Windows programs is because Michael Robertson has consisitently used LIES & marketing to sell more of this product - and Joe Public, as in the liar Gates, have taken the liar Robertson at his word.

Robertson should immediately be distanced from everyone else in the Open Source community - Open Source, whether it's Linux apps on Linux kernels or Windows apps on Windows is about OPEN & HONEST communications with the rest of the world - Robertson is NOT honest.

Personally, I'd even go a stage further & get the GPL modified to exclude that lying, good-for-nothing, scumbag marketeer from ever even touching Open Source.

latest version a year ago?

Their last version came out in March of last YEAR.....what exactly have they been doing since then? I've not heard a peep about what their next version will have in it.

Does it?

We (most geeks out there) usually go around and say "that piece of software is bloated to death", "ICQ is bloated, get the lite version", etc, but actually Linspire is the other way around... its a distro so trimmed down that you don't have the choice to either buy their click-n-run products or try to get a compiler installed-- even if theres no compiler binaries by default.

So I guess the old Modded-Down-to-death question is quite on-topic: "Yeah but, does it run Linux? :D "

Joke apart, I'm not sure if its a good idea to restrict the user experience THAT much. Sure, you get the advantage of controlling whats going to be installed (and what not), thus having more chances to get a stable environment (in the same way than Apple's OS, when it was on Apple hardware only, reducing the chances of crashing), but too bad if you wanted to get under the hood and customize Linspire all you wanted-- you're just stuck.

Linspire can crash 2 machines at once

curious.. I fired up vmware and install linspire. After booting I went into the user account I created and ran CNR. As it attempted to update CNR it managed to lock up both the virtual machine (which I was running full screen) and the host machine.

After restarting machine and booting up linspire again, CNR fails to run. Pretty 1337 stuff. I can see newbies having no issue with this OS at all..

Re:Isn't it obvious ?

"It isn't about Linux but it is about making money, simple. However, unlike other companies this one only takes and doesn't give anything in return."

Go to http://www.linspire.com/lindows_products_license.p hp#ope [linspire.com], and scroll down to "Open Source Support, Projects & Initiatives", dumbass.

It's brain-dead morons like this guy spreading bald-faced lies that makes it hard for any commercial linux distribution to succeed...

Re:Braised Lamb Shanks with Herbs

Coming up next... a recipe for baked trolls :-)

Re:Linspire == Ubuntu

Well, you do seem to be an expert in burnt-out, blip-on-the-radar operating systems (check the url)...

I still dislike the off-the-cuff exaggerations: If Ubuntu and Linspire have dropped "everything good about Debian", it should be easy for you to list, let's say "ten best things Linspire and Ubuntu dropped", shouldn't it?