Slashdot Log In
Mark Shuttleworth Proposes Delaying next Ubuntu
Posted by
Zonk
on Sat Mar 11, 2006 04:41 PM
from the waiting-on-the-duck dept.
from the waiting-on-the-duck dept.
Beuno writes "Mark Shuttleworth has proposed on the ubuntu-art mailing list to postpone the 'Dapper Drake' release by 6 weeks. He lays out the reasons pretty clearly: the delay should make the release a more user-friendly distro. He has also called up a community meeting in April 14th on IRC for community input. Is it really worth delaying the release for more then a month just to polish it out a little bit?" Commentary on this also available from the Tectonic site.
Related Stories
[+]
IT: Dapper Drake Hits Ubuntu Servers 259 comments
linuxbeta writes "Ubuntu 6.04 (Dapper Drake) daily builds have hit the Ubuntu servers. Dapper's goals: Substantial polish and integration, software discovery and installation, make network-wide enterprise updates easy to manage, consider LSB and related certification standards and support for deployment of Dapper on mission-critical servers. Screenshots have already surfaced."
[+]
Shuttleworth on Open Source Development 162 comments
An anonymous reader writes "Mark Shuttleworth (retired cosmonaut and Ubuntu daddy) has written an informative blog entry about the problems associated with open source development. He found that paying geeks to code without assigning them managers lead to "shiny geek toys", rather than the product he was actually paying for. Shuttleworth says that left-field thinking is required when it comes to managing open source teams. See also Andrew Orlowski's analysis of why AOL eventually killed the Netscape project from a few years ago, where he describes Mozilla developers as "wandering off into Lotus-eating land"."
[+]
Previewing Dapper And Edgy 144 comments
Frank Clarkson writes to mention a ZDNet article about the upcoming release of 'Dapper Drake', Ubuntu Linux. They also give a mini-preview of Eft. From the article: "'I'm promising to impose (almost ;-) ) zero from-the-top requirements for Edgy, this release is entirely up the to development team to envision and implement,' he wrote. 'Almost everything that lands in Edgy will be driven from the development team, who get to play with whatever new technologies they fancy along the way. So that should give us a nice big bump in infrastructure and bling.'"
This discussion has been archived.
No new comments can be posted.
Mark Shuttleworth Proposes Delaying next Ubuntu
|
Log In/Create an Account
| Top
| 382 comments
(Spill at 50!) | Index Only
| Search Discussion
The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.
Error (Score:5, Informative)
Delay in Debian Derived Distro?? (Score:5, Funny)
(http://www.onlineconfessional.com/confess | Last Journal: Tuesday June 06 2006, @02:10PM)
Where's the bleeding edge code? Where's the "It compiled this morning let's push it out" mentality that's so common with Debian based Distros??
I'm astounded and saddened. Microsoft has updates coming out weekly. It can't be good for Ubuntu if it loses the "update war" with Microsoft. If you lose the update war, everything else is down hill from there.
Re:Delay in Debian Derived Distro?? (Score:4, Informative)
(Last Journal: Sunday December 04 2005, @12:42PM)
Well, looking at Vista (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Well, looking at Vista (Score:5, Funny)
(Last Journal: Monday December 22 2003, @07:23PM)
Question? Answer. (Score:5, Insightful)
Absolutely.
Re:Question? Answer. (Score:5, Informative)
(http://jdhutchin.ath.cx/)
Re:Question? Answer. (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Question? Answer. (Score:5, Informative)
(http://www.deansas.org/)
EasyUbuntu is better and much more in keeping with the Ubuntu way http://easyubuntu.freecontrib.org/ [freecontrib.org]
Re:Question? Answer. (Score:4, Informative)
(http://slashdot.org/)
See the FAQ: http://www.dvdcca.org/faq.html [dvdcca.org]
Michael
Re:Question? Answer. (Score:5, Interesting)
(http://jdhutchin.ath.cx/)
Re:Question? Answer. (Score:4, Informative)
(http://moranar.com.ar/ | Last Journal: Sunday June 08 2003, @04:58PM)
Re:Question? Answer. (Score:5, Insightful)
(http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc3675.html)
So tell them the truth: the technology exists, but U.S. law makes it risky to distribute it.
Re:Question? Answer. (Score:4, Interesting)
(http://www.linuxtrent.it)
Fluendo has released a licensed MP3 plugin [fluendo.com] for the GStreamer framework. It's already in Debian unstable, and I'd say Ubuntu probably will include it.
What does Ubuntu offer that Debian doesn't? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:What does Ubuntu offer that Debian doesn't? (Score:5, Informative)
(http://www.p10link.net/plugwash/)
a reasonablly predictable release schedule (a bit too fast for my liking in fact) and a bit of polish for some desktop related stuff.
as such it fills the gap between debian stable (slow unpredictable release process) and debian testing (constant upgrade treadmill with little in the way of security support)
What can be done with Ubuntu that I can't do with Debian?
if you feel like supporting debian testing/unstable then nothing. And with sarge for a while probablly not much.
However in the couple of years prior to the sarge release running woody was becoming more and more untenable as recent software simply wasn't getting tested with stuff that old. Sarge is ok for the moment but unless debian can get thier house in order and come up with a release every few years at least then we are going to run into this issue again.
Re:What does Ubuntu offer that Debian doesn't? (Score:5, Funny)
(http://www.neverwhen.net/)
Re:What does Ubuntu offer that Debian doesn't? (Score:5, Interesting)
(http://andersman.org/)
I used to use Debian on my laptop, but later switched to Ubuntu. Why?
It supports more hardware out-of-the-box, and it has newer GNOME packages than Debian. Things that I had to install in Debian (the touchpad, etc) were already installed.
I wouldn't use Ubuntu on a server though, everything I can do in Ubuntu I can do in Debian. Installing a Debian desktop is just more hassle than installing Ubuntu.
The testers seem to agree (Score:5, Informative)
(Last Journal: Monday September 25 2006, @01:19PM)
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=142536 [ubuntuforums.org]
Dapper is coming along nicely, but there are a number of bugs that might not get the attention they deserve if Dapper is released on schedule.
Their Flight 5 CD is out. It should be quite stable for normal use.
"Linux for human beings" (Score:5, Informative)
If Ubuntu wants to be "Linux for human beings" it needs all the polish it can get after that experience.
Keep up the good work guys.
Re:"Linux for human beings" (Score:5, Informative)
(http://uspoliticsandelections.blogspot.com/)
The only real issue was the 5.10 didn't handle ALPS Touchpads well at all. It was almost unusable as a result.
Fortunately, the Dapper betas have fixed that, and Ubuntu really is the most usable easy distribution for this box. OpenSuSe and Fedora both had significantly greater issues (either with suspend or the touchpad, or both).
Re:"Linux for human beings" (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:"Linux for human beings" (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:"Linux for human beings" (Score:4, Informative)
(http://www.p10link.net/plugwash/)
config.sys and autoexec.bat really belong to dos and in the dos days there wasn't exactly a lot of choice on what you ran on your IBM compatible PC.
Blame X (Score:4, Informative)
(http://slashdot.org/~Stalyn/journal | Last Journal: Wednesday September 28 2005, @08:10PM)
Re:"Linux for human beings" (Score:4, Informative)
(http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2005/roll414.xml | Last Journal: Tuesday January 03 2006, @11:11PM)
I actually think this much to do with the good work done by the x.org folks, as well as work done by
For example, Debian "stable" still uses Xfree86, and Xfree86 couldn't detect it's left nut without editing the Xfree86 conf file.
Fedora at this time used an experimental version of X.org , wheras Ubuntu had a polished & more stable version.
RedHat used a stable version of X.org (maybe it was still Xfree86), but the config tools screwed up the config so badly taht X wouldn't start.
Suse had some propietary tools which mucked up the display.
Well... (Score:5, Insightful)
(Last Journal: Monday February 13 2006, @07:11PM)
To me, this feels basically like delaying an extra security heavy distro 6 weeks to implement verify a new security protocol implementation works correctly.
Support/enterprise (Score:5, Insightful)
(http://venganza.org/)
Ubuntu is Debian, Debian is Ubuntu... (Score:3, Funny)
Really... (Score:5, Insightful)
(http://www.savagewar.co.uk/)
Re:Really... (Score:4, Interesting)
d'uh. (Score:5, Insightful)
there are hundreds of distros already, and the only thing they all lack is polish, so yes.
what's the hurry?
YES! (Score:5, Insightful)
Patience is a virtue. Ubuntu has no need to generate revenue, and if it takes six more weeks to make the release more usable for human beings, that can only be a good thing.
Out of sync (Score:4, Insightful)
(http://www.miscz.pl/)
The recent theme changes are not a step in good direction too. It looks abysymal and burns my eyes. Even tough I didn't like brown theme the new one made me miss it.
Absolutely it's OK! (Score:3, Interesting)
Is it really worth delaying the release for more then a month just to polish it out a little bit?"
Yes, it's worth it. FTA, this isn't a release aimed at the "average Linux user." It's meant for enterprises, and it's important to get it right. It's something that can be a big point for the adoption of Linux in the desktop workspace, that this is a distro which looks good, has a wide range of language options, and has support. Spending a rather trivial amount of time getting it fully ready is what should be done, rather than try to hit an arbitrary "release date", only to, a few weeks later, do the MS routine of "here's the update package, Service Pack X".
Not just polish... (Score:5, Insightful)
It's not just about polish, though. TFA lays out a number of points where improvements are needed:
1. Testing
2. Certification
3. Localisation
4. (last but not least) Polish
Improvements to Asian localisation should help a ton of people - we're not all English speakers.
Not that it all matters to me, though... I use SUSE.
BaltikaTroika
Re:Not just polish... (Score:4, Funny)
(http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~njh/)
Software delay? (Score:3, Insightful)
(http://slashdot.org/~nurb432/ | Last Journal: Friday August 27 2004, @03:24PM)
It's worth delaying (Score:4, Insightful)
(http://www.getogg.org/)
There is going to be a reasonably large number of desktop users willing to "try Linux out" just before they "upgrade" to Vista. The distribution they're most likely to try is currently Ubuntu, and if it is good enough, they might switch to Linux rather than Vista.
Re:worth delaying for WPA support alone (Score:4, Informative)
(http://www.drao.nrc.ca/~rreid/)
What if 6.04 (Score:3, Insightful)
(http://neonstream.us/)
Compile kernel modules for dapper (Score:4, Insightful)
Value of Polish vs. New Features (Score:4, Insightful)
One faction will say, "Don't commit any new features until the next major release after this one!" while another faction will say "This is too important to wait through endless patch releases and another major release cycle!" The temptation will be to "just risk a few bugs" for this "major new feature" by those who don't really see the value of the polish right now. The offense will be that "any new feature" will require more polish, patches, or in essence de-values the work the polish team has been doing. Great amounts of spite and venom will be launched at each side.
Set a firm, clear policy about what the polish window will be and about the firm exclusion of new functionality that's independent of any particular technology before this starts and make sure everyone knows what that policy is. Not setting a policy is bound to cause chaos. Setting and then breaking a policy is bound to drive off any future desire to work on future "polish" release work.
Great (Score:3, Interesting)
(http://johan.kiviniemi.name/)
I think that's great. Just a while ago Dapper got a new urine-colored Human theme [ubuntuforums.org], and - all due respect to the people who put their efforts into making Ubuntu better - frankly, it's just horrible. If the release is delayed, they have a lot better change to fix the theme.
Another thing i'd really like to see in dapper is the new NetworkManager 0.6 [gnome.org] with its WPA and OpenVPN goodness. "Automatic network detection and configuration management [launchpad.net]" is high-priority target for dapper, and the new features in n-m 0.6 are needed by many users.
Please. PLEASE! (Score:3, Interesting)
Yes (Score:3, Insightful)
(http://nojailforpot.com/)
Yes. We're not talking a year, here. A month is inconsequential. The question is silly.
And, with a distro where being "user-friendly" is a primary feature, it's all the more important to make these minor adjustments in release dates for improvements that are fundamental to the underlying concept.
Holy Crap! (Score:3, Funny)
(http://www.dangercollie.com/music/)
Give them more time; they've earned it (Score:5, Interesting)
https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/dapper/+spec
I'll refrain from Debian comparisons, as they're not needed to communicate what stellar work the team has done here. Point is, Ubuntu users and admins ought to support this delay, for the same reason I support Ubuntu... the Ubuntu team simply has its shit together, moreso than that of any other freely available distribution.
Let Shuttleworth strategize to take on Red Hat, SuSE, and Vista--because Ubuntu actually has a fighting chance. That prospect ought to excite Ubuntu partisans (like me) and fence-sitters alike.
I'm all for the delay if the goals are met (Score:5, Informative)
Amen to that! I tried installing Ubuntu on my girlfriend's laptop, and in the end I just gave up getting Chinese input working properly (she's Taiwanese and sends a lot of mail in Chinese to her friends back home.) After a couple of long nights spent fiddling with it, I could get it to sort of work with some apps, but this is one area where Windows beats Linux hands down -- after I gave up and installed Windows on her machine, enabling Chinese input took me all of about 30 seconds to do, and it works flawlessly in every app she uses.
Ubuntu shows its roots (Score:3, Funny)
(http://slashdot.org/ | Last Journal: Thursday October 05 2006, @10:36PM)
Wow. (Score:4, Informative)
(http://slashdot.org/~Spy+der+Mann/journal/ | Last Journal: Saturday November 10, @01:50AM)
Some example specs (copied / pasted) :
This is what all linux distros should do, start listening to the users instead of relying on the old "RTFM n00b" cliché.
I'm sure that if Ubuntu keeps doing all of these user-friendliness checks in a couple of years, Ubuntu will match the usability and installation-friendliness of WinXP, yay!
To answer the question... (Score:3, Insightful)
(Last Journal: Tuesday February 24 2004, @06:10PM)
Yes. It is. Full stop.
Free software ships When It Is Ready. That's why it's better.
Re:User friendly? (Score:5, Informative)
(http://www.jsyncmanager.org/ | Last Journal: Friday September 21, @03:50AM)
The fact that you're not a software engineer shows.
Want to know what would have otherwise loaded? The Windows Bootloader, which would have been within the exact same 512b sector that Grub now occupies. Boot loaders on PCs are extremely restricted in what they can do -- their code can be no larger than 446b in size, they run in real mode, and basically must rely directly on BIOS for all of their I/O routines.
In effect, this is 1980's technology, and flexability is virtually nil. The primary boot loader can't just pass its duties off to another boot loader, as there aren't really sufficient instructions available to do this, and the two boot loaders cannot occupy the same space on the drive.
If you're looking for something to blame for this situation, it's the fact that the architecture of the PC BIOS hasn't changed significantly in more than 20 years. It's still firmly rooted in the days of 160KB floppy booting, where the idea of a second-stage boot loader for choosing what OS you want to boot would never have occurred (want to boot a different OS on a diskette-only system? Use a different boot disk). BIOS should have died a long time ago.
Boot loaders like GRUB do the best they can with what little resources and possibilities they are given. I'm sorry that the GRUB developers don't have access to your screwy system to test and debug on. Here I've run GRUB on a variety of systems, and the only machine I ever found which had problems with it is one with a built-in nVidia chipset, back in the Fedora Core 2 days, which was easily solved by switching to a different boot loader.
Yaz.
Re:User friendly? (Score:4, Informative)
(http://www.xmilk.com/)
I am, on the other hand, an expert on a technology called SVG, and I know that there are alot of guys at Canon working with the w3c on something called SVGPrint, which they are looking to use as an Open/Free mechanism to transmit data to all their printers. (In place of postscript?).
There is alot of work going on in these fields, but it will take a little bit longer until some of the newer open technologies hit the market.
Re:User friendly? (Score:4, Informative)
As many others have pointed out, in 446 bytes, we can't do anything. All the Microsoft boot loader have historically done when it barfs is print something like "NT Loader not Found", and then left you "locked out of your system", just as GRUB did.
BTW, you're not really locked out. You can create a GRUB boot floppy and manually boot into your OS installation. You can also use the Windows CD to set the MBR back to its original state. Or you could use most Linux distros' rescue CDs to fix the problem.
Re:User friendly? (Score:5, Informative)
The BIOS knows you want to boot from your hard drive, it does one simple thing to facilitate this, it loads the first 512 bytes from the drive into memory, and it tells the CPU "start executing here". Should the code in those 512 bytes fail, the bios has nothing further it can do, it only knows how to do one thing, grab the 512 bytes and let them execute.
You installed Stage 1 of GRUB in the MBR (first 512 bytes of the drive). When you installed it, you installed it over top of the 512 bytes that were Microsoft's MBR. This is what was there before GRUB was installed, and now it is gone, completely written over, and neither GRUB nor the bios can do anything about it.
I think you would probably like it if the grub installer put a backup copy of the Microsoft MBR somewhere else on the drive, and you would like stage 1 of GRUB to load and execute those if there is any problem. But, if there is an error loading those 512 bytes, absolutely nothing can be done.
There is a perfectly valid explanation for why stage 1 might fail and why the microsoft MBR doesn't.
Stage 1 of GRUB (installed in the mbr) has 1 job, load a file from your Ubuntu partition,
The Microsoft MBR also has a simple job. It looks, at the partition table for partitions marked as bootable, takes the first one, loads the boot sector of that partition into memory, and executes it.
So stage 1 of GRUB and the Microsoft MBR really have a lot in common, as they are both 512 bytes they really do shit all, they just attempt to load more boot code off the drive and let it rip. The crucial difference here is WHERE on the drive they play with. Microsoft MBR reads the partition table and the boot sector of the partition marked bootable. GRUB stage 1 reads the location of
As
What could be different about these different locations on the drive?
If there was an error on the drive where
Or, maybe the hard drive is fine in all locations, but the mechanism used by these two MBRs to access it is not behaving as it should. What is this mechanism? Our frequenly buggy friend, the BIOS. The BIOS implements a interface that the MBR can use to get its job done. Something like
load_sector_from_ide_drive( ide_channel, master_or_slave, block_number )
Assume neither MBR has any bugs in calling this interface, what if there is a problem with the implementation itself? What if the interface promises that a block_number=(location of
Re:User friendly? (Score:4, Funny)
(http://seenonslash.com/ | Last Journal: Monday June 11, @09:55AM)
Re:User friendly? (Score:3, Informative)
(http://ameoba.0pi.com/)
Re:Ubuntu release philosophy: A fatal flaw (Score:5, Informative)
(http://sjhserv.net/)
Re:Ubuntu release philosophy: A fatal flaw (Score:3, Insightful)
I have to admit that Ubuntu has many nice useability tweaks over Debian though. Ubuntu is almost install and run without thinking about it. Debian still requires a bit of work in certain areas.
I really do wish there was an "unstable" Ubuntu though. Something where any new package can be stuffed, all bleeding edge junk like Debian unstable. I hate waiting months for another Ubuntu release when I want some newer version of something (eg. Breezy is still using Thunderbird/Firfox 1.0 when 1.5 has been out for ages; inline spelling, yum) and I dislike munging up my system by manually installing some newer version of a specific package.
Re:User friendly? (Score:4, Insightful)
Don't let your anger show. Frustration is understandable, but showing it makes you harder to communicate with. If you want people to help, don't make snide remarks.
Re:MP3 license (Score:3, Informative)