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Open Source Not That Open?
Posted by
ScuttleMonkey
on Mon Nov 07, 2005 11:36 PM
from the consider-the-source dept.
from the consider-the-source dept.
mstansberry writes "At the Open Source Business Conference last week, Microsoft's Shared Source mouthpiece Jason Matusow argued the point that open source isn't really open. He said you can't just go changing code on supported Linux offerings without paying extra to companies like Red Hat or Novell. So as Linux is commercialized, it becomes less open. While Matusow made good points during his presentation, many in the open source community are skeptical of the idea at best."
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It all depends... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:It all depends... (Score:5, Interesting)
If they think it's hard to get code in, that's pure nonsense. As a Fedora Extras contributor (fortune-firefly, and coming soon Nethack: Vulture's Eye/Claw) the process is relatively simple, and the people very supportive and responsive. Now, Fedora Extras is certainly less picky than RHEL, but I can't imagine it being too difficult to get code in. If it's not your own package, just simply a package carried by RedHat, you don't even have to deal with RedHat - you just deal with the developers of that package. If they take your patch, then your patch ends up in the distro.
If he's talking about "you make changes and then expect RedHat to immediately support your changes for you without merging it into the distro", however, that's a pretty preposterous thing to expect. That's not asking for a supportive vendor - that's asking for consultants.
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Re:It all depends... (Score:5, Interesting)
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Finally... (Score:5, Funny)
Come on... Microsoft!??!
Re:Finally... (Score:5, Informative)
Shared source is Microsoft's foray into community development, started back in 2001 when Linux was just a hobby for the blue-haired ponytail set.
I think everybody except for Microsoft had heard of Linux well before 2001. I first started playing with it in 1995, and had it in production for webservers and other edge type boxes during 1997.
I've never had blue hair.
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That's Might Only Be True... (Score:5, Insightful)
The Point (Score:5, Insightful)
It's not a distribution thing its a philosophical thing.
To make an allusion to a situation I have at work: we use a framework for development, and I have a tweaked copy I use for a pet project. But I don't dare ask for support on it, because I made modifications to the code beyond the specifications of the code. I can do that, because I am a developer and have rights to the codebase, etc. but then its no longer a standard. I can't expect it to support other applications built for the main framework and vice versa, etc...
But in truth he makes a point - the core of the OS in general doesn't need to be messed with, most tweaks and alterations do/should occur at the application level.
Just my 2 cents worth,
-everphilski-
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Re:The Point (Score:5, Insightful)
No of course you can't. That's like me saying "I created a program on my computer, can someone offer me support without seeing the code or knowing much about it?" However if you distribute your software, and it gains a wide customer base, then people will be able to offer support on it, and nothing stops you from offering your customers support for your derivative.
Try doing that with Windows and see how far you get.
the core of the OS in general doesn't need to be messed with, most tweaks and alterations do/should occur at the application level.
And open source IS open, because if someone were to make changes to the OS, if the changes were good enough and the people distributing it professional enough, it would gain widespread use, and the other Linux distro's would be welcome to come along, grab his changes, and implement it within their own distributions.
To me, the MS PR person seems to have created a straw-man more then anything. But then again, why is this a surprise? Microsoft appears to hate the GPL and Linux, because it see's them as a valid threat to their own virtual monopoly. Whenever a MS person speaks, be very careful. He might be speaking the truth, but the likelihood of a spin is great. You should also be careful whenever there's a Microsoft article on Slashdot, because while the summary might be saying the truth, the likelihood of a spin is great. In this case, the summary gave the impression the article was primarily about Open Source not being open, when in reality, it's about Microsoft's shared source license.
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Re:The Point (Score:5, Informative)
If you find a bug in a customized program, you try to reproduce it on a stock version. If it exists, you submit a bug report against that. It's their bug, completely.
If you modified the code, then you should be able to determine if the modifications are working as expected. If not, it's your bug.
Maybe you have shared your modifications with others who can help. Maybe it has already been merged into the standard codebase.
Even when it's not possible to reproduce the bug due to logistical contraints, or to determine whose fault it is, the vendor should still listen to the problem and offer guidance on how to isolate the problem.
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Re:That's Might Only Be True... (Score:5, Insightful)
Regards,
Steve
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Re:That is not true (Score:5, Funny)
Why is Bob Young posting as AC? Come on, Bob, show some backbone - we won't be that hard on you!
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you mean Redhat wont support my modified code!? (Score:5, Insightful)
Redhat wont go the extra mile to support some code that they have supplied and I have modified.
Wow that's preposterous.
What next? Ford wont honour my new vehicle warranty if I modify the engine?
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Re:you mean Redhat wont support my modified code!? (Score:5, Informative)
Ford will honor your new vehicle warranty if you modify the engine as long as the problem cannot reasonably be connected to the engine.
For example, if I install a high-flow air filter and a few months later the brakes stop working, Ford will honor my warranty. If I install a high-flow air filter and the cylinders break, Ford might be less willing to fix it under warranty. It would be up to Ford, by the way, to show that the damage was due to the modification and you can take them to court if you don't agree. Depending on what happens, it may not be worth it.
The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act [enjoythedrive.com] is the federal regulation in this case.
This may be off-topic, but it's a common myth that if a person modifies their car, they lose their entire warranty. It's not true.
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Worst, Microsoft, troll, ever... (Score:5, Insightful)
I can do whatever the hell I want with GPL'd open source, short of refusing to share my changes when distributing binaries to other users. Microsoft has all these licenses, but AFAIK they've released nothing of worth under any of them. I can't view or modify any significant Microsoft source without signing an NDA and paying millions of dollars, or risking serious prison time.
Supported? (Score:5, Insightful)
If you don't want official support from any vendor, you modify away - and support it yourself.
in other news (Score:5, Funny)
It's open (Score:5, Insightful)
The point is you can do whatever you want with the code, but you can't force someone else to use it. I mean think about it. Imagine a code repository where every developer could write anything and it was fully open. It would never build. Code that is good enough usually gets accepted upstream, that darwinistic process helps open source, not the opposite.
More MS FUD (Score:5, Insightful)
That's a new meaning for the phrase "lock things down" that I hadn't heard before. I don't believe redhat locks anything down. The customer might be responsible for fixing problems with their own changes, but that wouldn't affect the support that redhat provides (i.e. so long as the problem was not caused by a customer change).
In effect, it's more FUD from M$. They really appear desperate now, grasping at any possible argument against Open Source. I didn't see the M$ spokesman telling the audience that Microsoft would support its own software which had been altered by customers.
So Mr Matusow, please explain again, how a license which allows customers to do more than your license allows is bad for those customers? That's like the RIAA claiming that 20-more years of copyright post death of author is good for the consumer.
Not the point (Score:5, Insightful)
The catch is this: change something, lose support. (Score:5, Informative)
What the article doesn't say, is that M$ [microsoft.com] has the exact same stance. You run 3rd party software with Microsoft Exchange, you lose support from Microsoft on not only Exchange, but probally your install of Windows 2003 Advance Server. Go read your EULAs from top-to-bottom, and you'll see what I mean. For any Microsoft product.
God I hate people slinging FUD around.
Air is not free (Score:5, Funny)
Chaning the code in Windows? (Score:5, Insightful)
Ofcourse RedHat cant support somebody elses code, the programmer changing the code might as well be a monkey and there is no way RedHat can magically fix things if an idiot sits down and hits the keyboard with a pillow. What you can do is send those fixes upstream and if the fixes are good it will get incorporated into the next release.
Red_Hat != Linux (Score:5, Interesting)
So? Roll your own distro. Can you do that with Windows? No. Can I tweak XP and sell it as my own? No. Better yet, can I tweak the codebase for Windows Server 2003 so that I have a company wide distro for our internal systems? Hell no.
I'm sorry but this Microspin Doctor's argument looks to be in beta still. As per usual, I don't expect Microsoft's final argument to be worth anything until the third release.
I was at the conference and was in the audience... (Score:5, Informative)
first off, the argument went like this:
Say you're running SAP or some other large enterprise system. Say it's running on Linux. The fact that it's Open Source doesn't gain you much. You're extremely unlikely to be able to change things as companies like SAP, Oracle, etc. all specify exactly which versions of some of the various fiddly bits of Linux they support running their application on. If you deviate from those supported configurations - they don't support it.
And guess what - it's true.
Oracle isn't into supporting you bump-reving your kernel, and your upgrading to the latest c lib. They'll test a working stack - identify known issues (and work-arounds) - and that becomes a "known good" configuration. So - while you can do whatever you want with the source, that doesn't mean that other people are obligated to support it.
In any case - it's sort of a straw man argument. The fact of the matter is (and he even pointed this out) for the most part most people just use software. They aren't interested in actually modifying it in any way (substantively speaking). They aren't going to look at the source code, change it and re-compile it. Only 1% or 2% of software users are in that class. So realistically the fact that you can modify the source isn't such a huge advantage in practice. Other people have cited here what the real benefits are: Freedom of choice - you can still choose to make the change and support it yourself, and security - if the company supplying your software goes away, you still have the source...
And I see a lot of people reiterating the following OoC (Out of Context):
"But if a customer modifies the source code, [Red Hat] can't help you [without charging you extra]. They have to lock things down to provide value," Matusow said. "As open source becomes commercialized, it becomes less open."
What he meant by that - and clarified - was that Red Hat has supported configurations, and other software vendors upstream (Oracle, SAP) have supported configurations. They "lock things down" (not in the literal sense, damn us programmers are always soooo literal - I'm suprised more of us aren't fundies) to provide value - is simply saying they limit the scope of what they support... Deviations from those known configurations are not generally well supported. I'm very curious about how well Red Hat supports the following on the current set of it's "Enterprise" edition:
1> Downgrade a core component such as the C Lib, or similar library or set of system utilities that a lot of the system relies on.
2> Upgrade a core component as above.
3> Crossgrade a component like the file system to a different one.
Once that's been done, I'm also wondering what kind of support you'd get out of a company like Oracle or SAP...
Re:What? (Score:5, Funny)
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