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Thin Client With OSS for Developing Nations 252
FridayBob writes "The BBC has a story on a new, ultra-thin client that a group of not-for-profit developers, Ndiyo, hope will open up the potential of computing to people in the developing world. Not surprisingly, their system uses open source software. The system runs Ubuntu Linux with a Gnome/KDE deskto and OpenOffice. From the article: 'Licences for software are often a significant part of expenditure for smaller companies which rely on computers. But a recent UK government study, yet to be formally published, has shown that open source software can significantly reduce school budgets dedicated to computing set-ups.'"
Thin clients for models (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Thin clients for models (Score:2)
The third world need wireless mesh. (Score:5, Informative)
Such a bootable cdrom (based on Slackware) is already available from LocustWorld [mirror.ac.uk].
Maybe the Ubuntu guys should port it over from Slackware.
Re:The third world need wireless mesh. (Score:2, Informative)
You may be right but... (Score:2)
Probably the best thing for folks to do is just subscribe to the MeshAP user list [locustworld.com] and ask questions.
Re:The third world need wireless mesh. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:The third world need wireless mesh. (Score:4, Funny)
Yeah, it's such a pity that OSS developers can't write clean water.
Re:The third world need wireless mesh. (Score:2, Interesting)
I'd go beyond that... (Score:2, Offtopic)
Hopefully however these cultures can learn from the sickness pervading the developed world as a result of urbanization and retain some of their roots while they admit technology as a defensive measure.
And developed peoples need to stop thinking of "poverty" in terms of monetary income -- but rathe
Re:I'd go beyond that... (Score:2)
The "sickness of the developed world" (Score:2)
But it's really not all that bad.
And however bad it is, it's much better than high infant mortality and short lifespans (and don't forget brutal dictators and violent religious strife).
The only thing worse I can think of than dying young due to an easily preventable disease or lack of food is having your child die from an easily preventable disease or lack of food.
I guess maybe all of the above while the dictator's kids grow fat and healthy and the local gang cuts your arms off to claim the
You just described the developed world... (Score:2)
Brutal dictators and violent religious strife aren't characteristics of traditional tribal culture -- they're characteristics of development gone awry as it so often does.
High infant mortality and short lifespans have been with humans for a very long time. People are built to suffer those losses more than they're built to not even know why they're tryi
Re:The third world need wireless mesh. (Score:3, Informative)
Now, I'm pretty sure that there are places that are just like you described... but I guess it's not a rule.
See, I live at Brasil... we're on the third world, but we're also a democracy, as every other country here at South America.
And we know how to grow crops very well, indeed our governament agency for agriculture, EMBRAPA, develloped some amazing stuff like plague resistant varieties of a number of vegetables, that are also more productive. And agriculture is an industry around here, we have a hig
Re:The third world need wireless mesh. (Score:2)
A low cost, low power computer, can help with all of those. Given a suitable stack of CD's, or even better, an internet connection the computer becomes a library, language tool, political instrument and weather forcaster.
With one or two shared amongst a vill
Re:The third world need wireless mesh. (Score:3, Insightful)
1). Detects simple hardware i.e. video, mouse, lan, enough for 2D X Windows.
2). Gets an IP address via DCHP and generates a unique computer name.
3). Boots to a Remote Desktop login screen without needing to know beforehand a list of computers. Simply, the same as MSTSC where you enter the username, password and computer/server name/address.
This would cut down many licenses and make Windows thin client networking a breeze. I guess there are num
Re:The third world need wireless mesh. (Score:2)
Which typically will run you around 150-200 per seat.
Re:The third world need wireless mesh. (Score:2)
Re:The third world need wireless mesh. (Score:2)
Optimizing for client-side apps not cross-browser (Score:2)
Basically you want a good application platform that can get its apps downloaded as web pages and cached locally.
interesting approach (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:interesting approach (Score:2, Interesting)
Everyone else is trying to minimize the bandwidth use by moving to servers like NX, but these guys are going the opposite direction.
Wow (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Wow (Score:2, Troll)
[/trollmode]
Re:Wow (Score:4, Informative)
In most of the tradidtional cases a thin client is a networked computer using software such as Citrix.
The advantages (according to the Citrix folks) are cheaper clients, lower TCO and easier administrations.
Re:Wow (Score:2)
However, one always needs to keep in mind the fact that having a single server control multiple PCs means that the failure point is concentrated and can wreak havoc when something goes wrong.
Of course, since the failure point is somewhat obvious, people usually clue in and accomodate for it.
Except me. I'm a dumb-dumb.
Re:Wow (Score:2)
Proposed new mod (Score:2)
TCO (Score:3, Funny)
Development begins at home (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Development begins at home (Score:3, Insightful)
Because the barrier to entry really isn't much of a barrier in the US. Dell sells a $300 machine, Walmart a $200 one. If you can't save up for that $200 Walmart box, you can't save up for the $100 one either. The only other option would be 'free'.
Re:Development begins at home (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Development begins at home (Score:2)
Meanwhile, thousands of perfectly serviceable PC's are literally thrown out every year by companies in the states. Let's use those.
Then we get into what the machines in the article are to be used for. Company desktop replacments, networked to a central server. Not standalone home use.
Re:Development begins at home (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Development begins at home (Score:2)
Re:Development begins at home (Score:2)
$25 PIII/550 desktops.
A Compaq PIII/1.0ghz currently bidding at $57. Hell, that is faster than MY main PC was until a few months ago.
Cheap PC's are very easy to get in the US, if you want one. And if you want the free option, the local library usually has one.
Re:Development begins at home (Score:2)
Re:Development begins at home (Score:2)
Re:Development begins at home (Score:2)
Re:Development begins at home (Score:2)
Re:Development begins at home (Score:2)
And believe it or not, there are tons of free, refurbished computers sitting around.
Re:Development begins at home (Score:2)
Re:Development begins at home (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Development begins at home (Score:2)
Home is taken care of (Score:2)
If you read past the headlines, you see that
Re:Home is taken care of (Score:2)
Re:Development begins at home (Score:2, Insightful)
TFA pointed out that the target users couldn't possibly afford to put any type of computer in their homes. Not even a $100 thin client, monitor, keyboard and mouse. Besides, buying a thin client won't suffice as a stand-alone home computer. You need a server to run it from. This isn't an entry-level desktop computer.
The 'thin client' system (see www.ltsp.org for a more detailed explanation) plugs one or two dozen of these thin clients
Re:Development begins at home (Score:2)
"worthy poor" with "foreign".
Re:Development begins at home (Score:2)
And perhaps the 'foreign poor' *should* be competitors to the 'American' poor.
'And American products filter out to the rest of the world after they're out of fashion here, so feeding the American poor would eventually feed the foreign poor, too. '
so naive. when's it going to happen then?
Re:Development begins at home (Score:2)
So deluded by your own preconceptions. No more free clues for you.
Re:Development begins at home (Score:2)
> referred to the projects as a group.
A group of unrelated projects?
Re:Development begins at home (Score:2)
Re:Development begins at home (Score:5, Informative)
Well first off, this article is about people in the UK. These thin clients are also designed for a centralized computer center, school, or business; not home use.
Second of all, in urban areas of the US, there ARE projects like this. Unfortunately, they don't get alot of news coverage-- not sexy enough I guess. They are small, poorly funded, poorly organized, stuck in politics, stuck in government bureaucracy, and there aren't that many of them. But they do exist.
There are also projects which can help in this sort of realm:
http://www.ltsp.org/ [ltsp.org]
http://www.osef.org/ [osef.org] (They've been quiet for a while).
Looks like you are NYC, and I don't know what's available over there.
There are projects. And yes our own poor people are worth helping, but that doesn't mean you can't help the poor people in developing nations.
Re:Development begins at home (Score:2)
Re:Development begins at home (Score:2)
I know they had a project around here where IT professionals donated their time to teach poorer kids how to use the internet. Unfortunatly, I don't think these kids had computers at home.
What I'd like to see is an organization that takes old machines, rebuilds them with OSS that a machine can run on without dragging ass, and passes them out to less affluent people.
I know there are parts of the city where a kid could probably afford the $7/mo for unlimited dialup, but probably couldn't afford a $300 machi
Re:Development begins at home (Score:2, Interesting)
There sure is a lot of us vs. them in your comment.
Personally, I am a citizen of the world--the extent to which I feel charitable toward the poor does not follow along national government borders.
If "our" poor are worth helping, what are you doing to help them?
Re:Development begins at home (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Development begins at home (Score:2)
Re:Development begins at home (Score:3, Interesting)
Why are these cheap entry-level systems always targeted at the "Third World", rather than poor people here in the US?
Because, for many users, this sort of technology just cannot deliver the user experience they want.
I've spent 3.5 years running a cybercafe in France that sounds remarkably like their proposed setup - 10 diskless terminals connected to a fast Linux server. For many things it's fine. But try watching a realplayer video over a remote X session and watch the network saturate. This proposal
FPGAs vs. SOCs (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:FPGAs vs. SOCs (Score:2)
Re:FPGAs vs. SOCs (Score:2)
Re:FPGAs vs. SOCs (Score:2)
Thin Clients are great (Score:5, Insightful)
The benefits of thin-clients are many. First, the client can be really bare bones (i.e. no HD, minimal RAM, low-end graphics, low processesor speeds, etc) so they can be cheap ($170 + monitor from WalMart or donated machines). Second, to upgrade all your workstations (perfomrance-wise) all you need to do is upgrade or add another server - not hundreds of workstations. Third, to upgrade all you clients (software-wise), you just upgrade the software on a few servers. Managing one or two Win2K3 servers for viruses, patches, malware, etc, beats the hell out of 200 WinXP workstations!
There are other benefits, but these are the ones that have really made a difference for us. Don't get me wrong, thin-clients aren't the answer for everything. There are many situations where you need to have a fully functioning workstation. However, with the money you save on thin-clients, you can afford to get really good workstations, which in turn can be turned into thin-clients when they are needing to be upgraded.
Most of our users simply need a means of doing basic office tasks like word-processing, spreadsheets, email, web-surfing, etc. Those are perfect for thin-clients.
What would I want to have to make it better? Easy. First, get OpenOffice to work properly on a Win2K3 terminal server, It's not real good in a multi-user environment like that (unless I'm doing something wrong - possible). And the number 1 thing that would make it better: can you say "Tiger Terminal Server Edition"?
Re: Thin clients cheap? (Score:3, Interesting)
First, the client can be really bare bones (i.e. no HD, minimal RAM, low-end graphics, low processesor speeds, etc) so they can be cheap ($170 + monitor from WalMart or donated machines).
Yep, thin clients are great, when used in the right places. And they have many advantages. But... price isn't one of them. Not yet, anyway.
Where I live, PC's up to around 200 MHz. (original Pentium and below) are effectively free. You want one? Look around, hand over a sixpack of beer, and you have one.
Now with a $1
Re: Thin clients cheap? (Score:2)
Re:Thin Clients are great (Score:2)
How is it with just plain old X? If all you are doing is simple office, email, websurfing etc I just don't see how you could justify the cost of a w3k terminal server system. YOu not only have to pay for the server but you have to pay for each client that connects no matter what they are using to connect with.
More of the same NON-SOLUTION. (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:More of the same NON-SOLUTION. (Score:5, Interesting)
"The truth is that in "third world" countries, bare bones PCs that run your choice of Windows or Linux simply don't cost a hell of a lot more than $100, and often less."
Welcome to the land of Generalisation, where one anecdotal observation trumps any need for actual data!
Sorry to be so crude, but what you're saying is so hopelessly wrong that it just about made me jump out of my chair. How do I know it's wrong? Because I'm sitting right now in a developing nation that adds a 40% duty to all imported computer goods. I cannot buy a new PC of any kind for less than USD 1000. (That's about 6 times the legal monthly minimum wage.)
I've spoken with officials from the department of trade, and they've been extremely receptive to the fact that high computing costs are a huge barrier to development. In fact, they're in the process of lowering those barriers. But even then, the best we could expect would be a roughly $4-500 computer, which still represents a huge amount of money for the average person. When you're earning very little money, every dollar has to count.
So guess what? We used 8 year-old Pentiums to operate as thin clients to connect to 'modern' PIII 450s running Ubuntu. Here's the press release [www.news.vu] we just published.
In fairness, there are a number of countries where computer hardware is cheap. But the fact that some developing countries have cheap computers does not mean that 'the developing world has cheap computers'.
Thin Screen Computer! (Score:2)
Re:Nonsense. (Score:5, Informative)
"Jesus. What kind of box are you trying to buy? $1000 US? Maybe you should set your sights a little lower and realize that not everyone needs a game box."
I wasn't going to reply at first, but then I realised that you genuinely don't get it. The country where I live cannot survive on income tax revenues, because the cash economy is almost non-existent. This means that it relies on import duties, business license fees, etc. for its revenues. This means that things like computers have hugely inflated prices. PCs, for example, have a 40% duty slapped on them. Vendors also add large markups because they pay extremely high business license fees.
All this means that a low-end computer that would cost about USD 4-500 ends up costing not less than USD 1000 when it arrives here. Is it clearer now?
And stop calling me Jesus. 8^)
Re:Nonsense. (Score:2)
Re:Nonsense. (Score:2)
The proposal that I brought to the Ministry of Trade was that they should reduce the tariff on components to zero. That way, they could still raise needed funds for government, but they'd be helping to increase (semi-)skilled employment here. That would also make computers more affordable for everyone. They were quite receptive to this idea. I haven't seen the final rate proposal yet, but I believe they're lowering duties on systems somewhat, and components even more.
Re:Nonsense. (Score:2)
And stop calling me Jesus. 8^)
I'm confused; do you hear "religious messages" in your head or are those bastards ignoring the DNC list and masquerading as someone else again?
Re:Nonsense. (Score:2)
Re:More of the same NON-SOLUTION. (Score:2)
Can you cite an example of that? It seems to me that shipping alone would cost most of that.
Note: I'm ignorant on this topic. I'm not challenging your point.
Re:More of the same NON-SOLUTION. (Score:2)
OT as usual (Score:4, Informative)
The solution that eventually occured was that IBM donated a number of G40e laptops (thank you guys!) so we were able to put low-power, fancy computers out in the field.
Now the crux of the issue to me, and this is something which I've brought up earlier, so bear with me, is the question, Now What?
I've got a 2.8 gig 802.11g machine with 512 MB of RAM sitting here, doing what?
The hard part is making it useful. Not many people out in the villages enjoy reading slashdot regularly, so we have to find useful things that they can use these beasts for.
Essentially, what we did was to create an information portal, data was downloaded every day over a CDMA 1x connection, and presented in a form which was accesible to people. Weather forecasts, crop and vegetable prices, information about government schemes, employment opportunities in the nearest town and so on. If you want to know more, then drop me a mail and I would be happy to give you full details. Better yet, if you are involved in something similiar, please do get in touch.
Now the technology part is cool. I designed it to work completely in our favourite browser - Firefox - *ducks*, I used CSS to make sure that when you print out the information it's in an easy to read form. Also, since Open Office, FF, the Linux distro itself a number of other applications have recently been translated into the local language (Tamil) it has been easy for the people themselves to use it, rather than needing either an external person, or to have to painfully learn a new language.
Just to quickly respond to the infrastructure part, India has been really good at providing communications infrastructure at a grassroots level. Every village is linked with a 2 mbps pipe, and wireless internet using CDMA is fairly easily available. This is a god-send for us, who want to put an IT project in, without having to build this stuff up from scratch. I speak from experience in Indonesia, where we had to transmit using VHF. Fuck, that hurt.
Now sub-$100 machines are good. But, like someone else was saying here, the people themselves are NOT going to be buying this. It's more likely to be governements, NGOs and the like who do bulk-purchases and then provide them in conjuntion with various other schemes. Remember that in many parts of the world the annual income is less than $350. This is equivalent to somebody paying about $13'000 for a computer in the US (if they earn about $40k, which I assume an IT manager will).
The technology is cool for us. How useful is it for them?
R.
Really? (Score:2)
Re:WTF is Electricity??? (Score:2, Insightful)
When I lived in New Delhi, brown outs were a frequent problem and surges were a real hazard. A colleague of mine returned home once to the smell of ozone and burning plastic and found that a surge had left a scorch mark where his fax machine used to be. Any kind of electronic device required a special kind of expensive current regulator to protect against spikes, and even with one you were no better off if the power ever up and died. A desktop sys
Great... (Score:5, Insightful)
The people you're targeting get paid $50 a month, my friend, and their kids go to a school which is basically 4 walls, a floor, and a roof if they're lucky.
Oh yes, a server and some thin clients is really what's needed there.
Not paper and pens. Text books. Teachers. Electricity (what are they planning to plug these things into?).
The thing about developing nations, is not that they're poor, it's that the divide between the rich and the poor is vast.
At the other end of the scale, here, you have your rich, your ex-pats, etc - and you have your $5,000/term "International School" organisations who have wireless internet, computer labs, international standard teachers, and they don't need this. Nor do the businesses, most of which are thriving, thank you very much.
I'm sitting here next to a 3Tb server in my office and a server room full of Dual Xeons next door reading about how developing nations need some sort of solution for cheap computing?
These people have so lost direction they couldn't find it with both hands and a map.
It actually looks like a nice system, that would be ideal for reducing costs in schools and some businesses world-wide, I have NO idea what they're doing thinking they're doing this for the good of the "third world".
If they really want to do something "not for profit", try volunteering for an aids project, a humanitarian project, or a teaching project.
Sometimes I look at my driver - I pay him $65 a month, and I wonder what he would have been if he'd had the education I did. HE would be sitting in this chair, for a start. I could teach him in front of this PC for a month of Sundays, and it wouldn't make up for the fact he has no basic education.
Re:Great... (Score:2)
it's that the divide between the rich and the poor is vast.
From your description, these people need a revolution to redistribute the wealth. Obviously the rich people in your country don't really give a fuck.
Re:Great... (Score:3, Insightful)
I don't recall rich people anywhere in the world giving a fuck, generally speaking.
Revolution? Yeah, that'll work. Gather up every cent in the country, and redistribute it, bring the entire population up to $100 a month instead of $50. I can see how that would help.
Re:Great... (Score:2)
Nice.
I see danger lurking (Score:2, Insightful)
Pay attention to the beef which is OpenOffice. I am afraid that SUN may pull the plug on java, which OO.o has come to heavily rely on of late. SUN could simply change its license. Let's remember that SUN is practically in bed with M$ after having received some big cash ftom M$, and has never criticized SCO for its actions.
I personally advocate the forking of OO.o portions that are GPLed so that we can finally be fr
Re:I see danger lurking (Score:2)
Re:I see danger lurking (Score:2)
If this is the case, why won't some parts of OO.o run with IBM's java implementation? IBM has tried to make its implementation work but things are not as smooth as the real java.
Ideal American school/library client (Score:3, Insightful)
1) video, keyboard, mouse, optionally local removable read/write storage
2) operating system, e.g. Linux, with essential utilities, e.g. firewall and antivirus software
3) web browser
4) most common lightweight apps, e.g. low end word processor, and perhaps software specific to the given installation, e.g. front end to a card catalog or other database.
5) remote access to heavyweight, lightly-used apps like OpenOffice, running on a nearby server
with hardware just beefy enough to run the local apps plus a few web browser windows plus a few remote-access windows.
All of this would boot from a read-only, or at least read-only without administrator action, medium, to all but eliminate the threat of malware and end-user malice - reboot and the damage is undone.
Re:Ideal American school/library client (Score:2, Insightful)
LTSP (Score:3, Informative)
What's nice about the thin client setup is that once an application is loaded, it boots really fast on all the clients. For instance, we start OpenOffice on the server and it boots with a second on a client.
Another advantage with this setup is control. Since all the clients run on the server, we can restrict access and prioritize security.
Here's a better idea for the developing world... (Score:3, Insightful)
Where's the economic foundation (Score:2)
What they need more... (Score:2)
Amazing (Score:2)
So, in other words, mostly free software can save money?
Environmental cost (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:First Post! (Score:2, Offtopic)
No.
RTFA (Score:2)
Re:RTFA (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:RTFA (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Yawn, Sun already has this technology (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Nice (Score:2)
In other words, who needs it?