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Ubuntu and UserLinux to Combine? 274

Posted by timothy from the plenty-of-u-to-go-around dept.
An anonymous reader submits "With all the noise about Ubuntu, and no sarge release in sight, we haven't heard much from UserLinux in recent times. Even Bruce Perens has admitted that the "lack of a Debian release is becoming a critical problem". Now, Ubuntu has invited UserLinux to combine forces. More distro consolidation -- without a corporate buyout in sight!"
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Ubuntu and UserLinux to Combine? More

Ubuntu and UserLinux to Combine?

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  • I'm Not surprised (Score:5, Insightful)

    by ciroknight ( 601098 ) on Wednesday March 23, 2005 @01:51PM (#12026665)
    The first one out with a working product tends to win the market, as long as their product is the best. And since UserLinux stagnated in a lot of trivial discussion, Ubunto got the one up on us..

    That being said, I believe that the collaberation of the two products will be a great support to the cause!!!!

  • Ubuntu, as a desktop and a server (Score:5, Insightful)

    by alienfluid ( 677872 ) on Wednesday March 23, 2005 @01:51PM (#12026669) Homepage
    i personally think it is a very good move. Combining forces with UserLinux will not only increase its userbase but will allow Ubuntu to conform to the standards that UserLinux was established on. Ubuntu is a great distro that is good for the desktop and the server alike. You just got to love the apt-get. Visit Lafayette Linux Users Group at http://lug.lafayette.edu
    • If you want to try a server running Ubuntu, here it is: Lafayette LUG [lafayette.edu]

    • Re:Ubuntu, as a desktop and a server (Score:5, Interesting)

      by AvitarX ( 172628 ) <me@@@brandywinehundred...org> on Wednesday March 23, 2005 @06:22PM (#12029963) Journal
      I strongly disagree.

      I tried to use Ubuntu as a server and it was disasterous. We have a heavy use "workgroup" server at work that needs to run Netatalk 2.x (1.6.x did not play nice with OSX). I had to apt a whole bunch of packeges to get stuff ready, and some of them were from debian even.

      In the end I was unable to get netatalk to compile, but I found an apt source for it (jones.dk). I install it and all is fine for about 12 hours, and then files turn into folders before peoples eyes. And everything someone clicked on would turn into the same folder. So someone decided to delete the duplicate and we lost it obviously.

      Long stoy short, I went back to my Mandrake image where netatalk was hand compiled, but I am dying to have a distro where it comes from a package and I am not stuck with stuff in /usr/local and a custom init script. It is just Ubuntu is definatly not that distro.

      The oft berrated Mandrake has been far better for me.

      Also the only thing I do without the console is adding printers (never quite made sense to me, and they kept changing the system).

  • No story here, move along (Score:5, Informative)

    by RevMike ( 632002 ) <revMike@gmail. c o m> on Wednesday March 23, 2005 @01:53PM (#12026698) Journal
    One person posts a suggestion on a discussion list. No one has yet responded positively or negatively. Ten minutes later it is a story on Slashdot?

    I'm going to post somewhere that I'm taking over IBM. Let's see if "RevMike to take over IBM" becomes a story in the next ten minutes!

    • Re:No story here, move along (Score:5, Funny)

      by winkydink ( 650484 ) * <sv.dude@gmail.com> on Wednesday March 23, 2005 @01:57PM (#12026730) Homepage Journal
      This means that Ubuntu has joined the ranks of Slashdot LoveFest companions Google, Apple & Linus Torvalds.

    • It must be a really slow news day. (Score:5, Informative)

      by Bruce Perens ( 3872 ) <bruce@perens.com> on Wednesday March 23, 2005 @02:20PM (#12026970) Homepage Journal
      Since this story is about my project and it's a complete non-event, I'm going to make an off-topic announcement before I get to the meat.

      We now have 4 paid editors at Technocrat.net [technocrat.net] and we're running Slashdot for Grown-ups. Please try it out.

      Now, about UserLinux: Debian will resolve its problems. We're trying to help. And the project will go on. There will be a commercially-supported UserLinux release about a day after the Debian release. There is nothing else but the Debian release on the critical path.

      I have been acquainted with Mark Shuttleworth since the early days of Debian and fully support Ubuntu. UL will borrow from Ubuntu where appropriate. But UL seeks to do all development directly within the Debian organization, in order to achieve maximum transparency and public participation (a better explanation is in the UserLinux white paper). So, where UL borrows from Ubuntu, the result will be checked into Debian.

      I would have liked everything to go a year faster, but I'm convinced that the UL rationale is still valid and is important to the future of GNU/Linux.

      Thanks

      Bruce

      • Re:It must be a really slow news day. (Score:5, Funny)

        by CockblockTheVote ( 849450 ) on Wednesday March 23, 2005 @02:28PM (#12027053)
        I am unfamiliar with this "editors" concept. Could you elaborate on what duties and responsibilites would be?
      • There is nothing else but the Debian release on the critical path.

        Here's an idea on getting a Debian release out in a timely fasion:

        1. Wait a few weeks until Ubuntu Hoary Hedgehog is released

        2. Copy all of Hoary to Debian archives.

        3. Rebrand the graphics and strings

        3. Maintain the fork for as long as it takes to get the next release out. It might take a few years, but that might even be an advantage for conservative Debianists who don't want to upgrade every 6 months.
        • 2. Copy all of Hoary to Debian archives.


          3. Maintain the fork for as long as it takes to get the next release out. It might take a few years, but that might even be an advantage for conservative Debianists who don't want to upgrade every 6 months.

          Is that really stable enough for a Debian stable release? The two projects should fulfill different needs. Some linux users don't want a desktop distro which has been tested for a few weeks on the server. Some linux users want rock solid stablity, if not wh
          • Some linux users don't want a desktop distro which has been tested for a few weeks on the server.

            Well, follow and test Hoary for a few more months before releasing. Hell, wait through all of the 6month release cycle to see that it really is stable enough, taking bugfixes from Ubuntu and own developers as appropriate.

            Debian should be concerned with making a rock solid distro.

            The most important part of Debian is that it's completely free and independent. The 'rock solid' quality is to some extent a myt

          • Is that really stable enough for a Debian stable release?

            No. Glad I could help.

      • The design looks a little less professional all in all. I generally wouldn't take myself for someone who would care for those type of things, but it feels like it could use some editing.

        Either way, I've joined.
        • I haven't invested much in the slashcode and its themes, because I'm replacing it with a ruby on rails re-implementation. That doesn't use tables for layout and isn't wired into the web server, and has a lot more isn'ts and doesnt's that make it easier to maintain than the slashcode. I may get that to the point where I start showing it to people today.

          Bruce

      • I have been acquainted with Mark Shuttleworth since the early days of Debian and fully support Ubuntu. UL will borrow from Ubuntu where appropriate. But UL seeks to do all development directly within the Debian organization, in order to achieve maximum transparency and public participation (a better explanation is in the UserLinux white paper). So, where UL borrows from Ubuntu, the result will be checked into Debian.

        This is a good point. Mention of Ubuntu on a Debian mailing list often results in accusa
      • "...and we're running Slashdot for Grown-ups. Please try it out."

        A while ago, I gave consideration to abandoning Slashdot due to the number of immature posts. I was looking for alternate sources for my news fix. Your "Slashdot for Grown-ups" tagline was definitely an appealing one.

        However, here is one problem you might want to fix that kept me from switching:

        As far as I can tell, there are no POCs avaialble on the website. I typed my email address incorrectly when I registered, and there is no way

      • Re:It must be a really slow news day. (Score:5, Interesting)

        by mjg59 ( 864833 ) on Wednesday March 23, 2005 @03:32PM (#12027953) Homepage
        We're trying to help.

        That's an interesting thing to say. You haven't posted to debian-project or debian-devel this year. There are only three Debian bug reports mentioning Userlinux - two are by the same person and turned out to be due to a bug in Vmware, and the third is from a Userlinux developer who wants some extra fields in the default Samba config file. He didn't supply a patch. In fact, I can't find a single case of a patch being submitted with a note stating that it came from Userlinux.

        So, what are you doing to help? What solid technical improvements have Userlinux made to Debian? Will the money earned by offering certifications and support go into improving security support in Debian?

        I'm already seeing Ubuntu gain adoption and support by commercial vendors. They've also put a great deal of code and money into Debian. What real, tangiable advantage will Userlinux provide over them?

      • Hi,

        I just went to have a look at your site and have a few questions.

        Did you consider hiring a designer to spend a few hours doing a design for the site? Did you have a look at some of the competitors [dig.com]?

        Did you consider using something other than slashcode? Admittedly editors missing in action is the biggest problem here, but the quality of the design/HTML is also a bit of an issue.

      • Thanks, Bruce, for the authoritative ratification of my hunch...that some (fairly pompous, as it happened) random guy on the mailing list basically saying "You guys should cash it in and just help with our distro" was in fact not causing revolt in the UL ranks ;-)

        Seriously. That fellow's tone is all wrong. That's not much of an invitation; "come check all your packages into Ubuntu so we can kipe your work."

    • One person posts a suggestion on a discussion list. No one has yet responded positively or negatively. Ten minutes later it is a story on Slashdot?

      I agree wholeheartedly. And yet I have an Ask Slashdot about combatting and dealing with burnout that was rejected...

      I guess my sense of priorities and relevancy are off the mark.

      (yeah, i know you're not supposed to groan about rejected stories...)
    • I'm going to post somewhere that I'm taking over IBM. Let's see if "RevMike to take over IBM" becomes a story in the next ten minutes!

      Not only would it, but it would also become a story in 24 hours and 10 minutes too.

  • Bruce is right... (Score:5, Funny)

    by rk ( 6314 ) on Wednesday March 23, 2005 @01:54PM (#12026700) Journal

    "If this goes on, there will be credibility for Debian or Debian-derived distributions in the enterprise setting."

    How many times have Windows releases been pushed back? Microsoft has credibility. It seems Debian is working towards the same credibility.

    • Re:Bruce is right... (Score:5, Funny)

      by Bruce Perens ( 3872 ) <bruce@perens.com> on Wednesday March 23, 2005 @02:24PM (#12027015) Homepage Journal
      Ugh. Of course I meant "no credibility". But you're right, maybe we need a longer vaporware period in order to be taken seriously by business people :-)
      • There really is a lesson here beyond the humor. Credibility amongst business types doesn't come from a predictable release schedule, or technical superiority. If we start to see a regular release schedule for Debian, they might earn some technical credibility, but the only thing that earns credibility amongst business people is marketing.

        The first marketing steps Debian should consider taking is renaming the 'stable' and 'unstable' branches. It's really hard to explain what they mean to people in an indust

  • New name! (Score:5, Funny)

    by Faust7 ( 314817 ) on Wednesday March 23, 2005 @01:55PM (#12026710) Homepage
    Ubuntu and UserLinux

    I give you... UberLinux.

    • Re:New name! (Score:4, Funny)

      by SmokeHalo ( 783772 ) on Wednesday March 23, 2005 @02:01PM (#12026783)
      I, for one, welcome our new Linux Uberlords.
    • Lets try to make it official

  • Huh? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Pxtl ( 151020 ) on Wednesday March 23, 2005 @01:55PM (#12026715) Homepage
    UserLinux? Wtf is that? The problem with all these desktop linux distros is that I never have any idea what the various merits and flaws of each are. The old standbys like 'drake and SuSE are easy, but with all these new ones sprouting up who can keep track?

    Vector = old hardware.
    Ubuntu = Debian unstable repacked as usable. Free CDs in the mail.
    Yoper = fast, semi-friendly desktop linux.

    but wtf are all the others? Ark? User? MEPIS? Ninnle (just kidding - where did that troll come from though)?

  • Makes sense (Score:5, Insightful)

    by aCapitalist ( 552761 ) on Wednesday March 23, 2005 @01:57PM (#12026734)
    Maybe it should be Ubuntu assimilates the few users of United Linux.

    I asked Jeff Waugh about this a few months ago on irc and he had said that Mark Shuttleworth and Bruce Perens had talked before, but nothing about a merger.

    I think there's a natural synergy here with Bruce Perens being an "industry insider" and Shuttleworth having deep pockets.

    And at this point in linux history I don't think a little consolidation of efforts is a bad thing.

  • I think at this point we can say... (Score:4, Funny)

    by example42 ( 760044 ) on Wednesday March 23, 2005 @02:04PM (#12026816)
    "lack of a Debian release is becoming a critical problem"

    I think at this point it's safe to say this isn't a bug, but rather a feature.

    "Debian users take pride in the fact that their distribution is always several releases behind the latest version of the kernel, but makes up for that by being more difficult to install and use."
    From here. [newsforge.com]

  • server versus desktop (Score:5, Interesting)

    by bcrowell ( 177657 ) on Wednesday March 23, 2005 @02:05PM (#12026834) Homepage
    Although I run generic Debian on my desktop, my perception is that Debian is really meant for two things: (1) a distro for use on servers, (2) a generic basis for other people to build customized Linux distros on top of. Given that perception, I don't really see how the slow release schedule is "a critical problem." People using it on servers don't care if it has the latest prerelease version of KDE, they just want it to be stable, and they want security patches (which they get). People using it as a foundation for their own distro are going to build their distro after updating whatever they think needs updating.

    Another perception of mine, which may be totally incorrect, is that UserLinux is a project that failed. Would any Slashdotters who actually use UserLinux like to share their counterexamples?

    It's like the joke that goes, "I don't have a drinking problem. I drink. I fall down. No problem." Generic Debian is doing fine on servers. People who run non-x86 architectures are presumably happy that Debian is continuing to support them. Ubuntu is apparently doing fine on the x86 desktop. Many desktop users (including me) run testing, not stable, and therefore don't have a problem with the slow time scale for releasing the next stable.

    So what's the problem?

    • Re:server versus desktop (Score:5, Insightful)

      by claes ( 25551 ) on Wednesday March 23, 2005 @02:12PM (#12026893)
      I don't think that is what Debian is meant to be, but that is what it is actually used for. And this has become kind of rationalization for slow infrequent releases.
      • Debian stable is "meant" to be just that: stable.

        That attributte happens to be the prime quality one looks for in a server OS.

        I don't think stable's use as a server OS is what drives the development schedule.
    • The thing is, Ubuntu is an user distribution.

      On the other hand, Debian is good for servers and for developers.

      Ubuntu does far more handholding than Debian. This is exactly what the non-technical user wants.
      On the other hand, the system doing automated things behind your back is an atrocity for sysadmins.

      You also have freaks like me who detest graphical fluff. And, Ubuntu isn't the very best console system. Use it and be happy while I'm fooling around on my Debian Unstable home box (I admit, my boxes a
    • Thing is, though, that so-called "Generic Debian" is just ducky on the desktop. The Sarge installer (debian-installer) *is* "ready for prime time" on sufficiently generic white-box PCs. It requires a little fiddling on more proprietary machines like laptops, but usually *any* install of Linux is fiddly on machines like that.

      Ironically the safest way to run Debian is to run at the least a hybrid Sarge/Sid system, if not a full-on Sid system. Don't be frightened by the "unstable" tag...Sid is about as unstab

    • There Is No Problem (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward
      and you are absolutely correct in pointing this out.

      Debian provides an outstanding foundation for the greater Linux community. Debian's contribution cannot be overstated as Ubuntu and their ilk are little more than cake decorators in comparison.

      Personally I'm offended when parasitic tier two re-distributions in their collective maggotry begin whining that the host isn't succulent enough. Clearly the Linux community is at no loss for psuedo developers hard at work individualizing their splash screens, back

  • A match made in Penguin Heaven! (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward
    When Bruce announced UserLinux, I liked what he talked about, but I was doubtful of his ability to gather a working community. The desktop Linux I'm using (when I can easily) is Ubuntu. There doesn't seem to be any misalignment in the two distros' underlying goals and philosophies. The main difference is that Bruce isn't a multi-millionaire who can invest a few strategically placed dollars in a small number of developers, infrastructure projects, and PR. This makes the difference for spreading the awareness
  • To buy someone out when you don't have any money ;)

  • my $.02 worth (Score:5, Interesting)

    by suezz ( 804747 ) on Wednesday March 23, 2005 @02:11PM (#12026885)
    I think it would be a great idea - I tried ubuntu and now it is all I use - hardware detection is second to none - can't wait till next release - got my apt-get ready - I hope unbutu sticks around for a long time - I plan on not doing another iso install ever - use debian on my sparc sun blade 100 at work - will never do another sun cdrom upgrade on that one either.

    if ubuntu puts out a sparc edition I will get it on my sunblade in a snap.

  • Ubuntu the new Debian (Score:4, Insightful)

    by affinity ( 118397 ) on Wednesday March 23, 2005 @02:13PM (#12026903) Homepage
    I would like to see..Ubuntu replace Debian as the base system for many of the current debian distros out there. I think with Ubuntu could promote other distros to focus work on the application and desktop layers while keeping better package compatibility.
    This could be what UnitedLinux attempted to be.
    No dis-respect to Debian or it's developers. I believe Debian as a base could have been managed better to take advantage of the many advances the "Deb based distros" have made.

    I am not a professional developer or Software Manager so take this opinion as you will....

    • Re:Ubuntu the new Debian (Score:5, Interesting)

      by xeno-cat ( 147219 ) on Wednesday March 23, 2005 @03:14PM (#12027663) Homepage
      I don't think this is such a good idea. Debian is a good base because it is stable. primarily, but also has a massive bredth of packages. The "Debian based" distributions generally add value to Debian by providing more limited but current set of packages by pulling from the testing branches and doing their own integration. They also target some niche. This is why Ubuntu has value. It targets the desktop.

      Debian does not really target anything, and that is good because it makes for a rich base to start from.

      What would the value add be for basing a distribution on Ubuntu?

      Kind Regards
  • So I downloaded this newfangled Ubuntu distro, fired up VMWare and started installing. Installed everything, launched Gnome and internationalization is nowhere to be found! Not just that, there's no keyboard layout chooser either. If you speak French or German or Russian, you're required to RTFM intensively.

    I'd like to remind you, folks, that it's year 2005 we're talking about here. Every god damn Windows app can accept unicode, and Windows itself can accept any language in five mouse clicks. I do realize

    • Re:Ubuntu and why it didn't work for me (Score:5, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 23, 2005 @02:39PM (#12027181)
      Er, when you run the install CD, it asks you what language you want to use, and what keyboard layout you want. You CANNOT install Ubuntu without going through these 2 screens, so I'm guessing you skipped past those and then complain? You're 100% wrong on this. Sorry.
      • I haven't skipped it. I _want_ the UI to remain in English. However, I also want to be able to type in my native language. In FC3 I can do this in three mouse clicks by adding another keyboard layout. In Ubuntu I need half a day of RTFM to do the same thing and then it's not guaranteed to work everywhere.

        • Re:Ubuntu and why it didn't work for me (Score:4, Informative)

          by Foz ( 17040 ) on Wednesday March 23, 2005 @05:27PM (#12029346)
          I'm running hoary, not warty, so I'm not sure if it makes a huge difference... Especially since Hoary is slated to be released April 6th or thereabouts.

          However, I can go to system->keyboard layout and select any damned keyboard layout I want from the list.

          There's some valid bitches about Ubuntu, but that isn't one. Try upgrading your system, you might be amazed at what is out there. Hoary is quite a bit more polished than warty. It's also relatively trivial to upgrade from warty to hoary.

          Oh, and as for working KDE as well? Again, update your system and try the kubuntu-desktop meta package.

          -- Gary F.

    • Re:Ubuntu and why it didn't work for me (Score:5, Informative)

      by makohill ( 683440 ) on Wednesday March 23, 2005 @02:40PM (#12027210)

      I'd like to remind you, folks, that it's year 2005 we're talking about here. Every god damn Windows app can accept unicode, and Windows itself can accept any language in five mouse clicks.

      Try the preview of the new version released several weeks ago. A Unicode world has been both the default and assumed everywhere in development Ubuntu for nearly six months now. You can select a language at the GDM screen and get it up and running with full internationalization quite easily. The language-support and language-package project that Ubuntu is running is doing great things for l10n but help from those communities that speak the language and use the input methods is going to be essential.

  • And Bruce said as much on /. a few days ago (Score:3, Informative)

    by LittleLebowskiUrbanA ( 619114 ) on Wednesday March 23, 2005 @02:21PM (#12026987) Homepage Journal
    Right here. [slashdot.org]

  • No. (Score:5, Informative)

    by Doc Ruby ( 173196 ) on Wednesday March 23, 2005 @02:23PM (#12027009) Homepage Journal
    UserLinux answers "no" [userlinux.com] (in European).
    • I'm not sure I understant that "rowing the boat together" methaphor. What is Ubuntu doing wrong exactly?
      • I'm not really sure. It has something to do with joint marketing of Ubuntu by others at the recent Euro conventions mentioned in that thread. At least some people think that Ubuntu was handling that partnership "undiplomatically", like exploiting it without giving any value in return. I'm not sure I agree with either side's assertions (historical or logical) in that thread. But it does seem that the invitation to which the Slashdot story linked was very hasty, and the immediate reply, to which I linked, was

  • Long way to go (Score:4, Informative)

    by mr. marbles ( 19251 ) on Wednesday March 23, 2005 @02:24PM (#12027018)
    I've heard so much about Ubuntu for so long and being a long time Debian user I felt I had to try it. Allow me to be the lone voice of descent here but I really think this has a long way to go from becoming a user oriented desktop. I think what Ubuntu gives you is sane defaults, faster releases, and tested unstable, this is great for a regular Debian user who has to configure Debian to make it more useful for desktop use, but for a regular computer user or even a new computer user I still don't think it's anywhere near ready. Synaptic is still too complex a procedure for average users to install software with, a normal user wants to click "Software to do my taxes" and have it ready, not struggle with package management. The system administrative tools are still so immature I find myself constantly retreating back to hand configuration, if the install made a mistake configuring hotplug and it slows down my boot process there was no way to disable that from my bootprocess graphically. A default install will wipe a user's drive unless they know how to repartitian a drive on their own. Which makes me worried to ever give an inexperienced user a CD.

    For experienced users the one thing that really annoyed me was the complete lack of GCC in the default install. They had time to package a windows version of openoffice on the install cd and didn't deem it necessary to have basic development tools. When I boot Knoppix I can compile an entire LFS system while running on the CD alone, I can't do that with a default install of Ubuntu.

    Having said all that there are things Ubuntu is doing right. I like the disabling of Root and enabling the user to do more with the desktop. I can't remember how many times I get pissed off by Debian when I can't do something necessary like configuring a printer, or looking up my IP, without become root. I like the small install size, though what is up with all the python tools? I like that they package only the most useful desktop programs in default install thought I wished they'd give you more options to add programs on the default install. And the hardware detection for a Debian distro is one of the things every Debian user pray for.

    • Re:Long way to go (Score:4, Insightful)

      by ultrabot ( 200914 ) on Wednesday March 23, 2005 @02:43PM (#12027242)
      Synaptic is still too complex a procedure for average users to install software with, a normal user wants to click "Software to do my taxes" and have it ready, not struggle with package management.

      I assume you don't consider Windows users average users then? The current approach is still much easier than searching the web for the program, downloading it and installing it (only to stare constant shareware nag screens and tolerate limited features).

      For experienced users the one thing that really annoyed me was the complete lack of GCC in the default install.

      Experienced users should be able to use apt-get or synaptic to install gcc. gcc is still completely supported ('it's in main' as they say in UbuntuSpeak).

      what is up with all the python tools?

      Ubuntu aims to be a premium development platform for Python developers. Python is one of the priorities of Ubuntu, which is one of the reasons why it will be swiping the floor with other distros RSN ;-).
      • I assume you don't consider Windows users average users then? The current approach is still much easier than searching the web for the program, downloading it and installing it (only to stare constant shareware nag screens and tolerate limited features).

        On the contray I believe windows doesn't do software installation perfectly at all, but at least because so many companies support them people can get their software from a nicely packaged CD with everything they need in it. I think we want computers to b
        • I like python a lot, but would a regular desktop user really use all this?

          The python libs are needed for running apps that use those libs. So I guess the idea is that you can easily start using various third party python applications 'out of the box', without the need to install anything else. That's going to be important if there is no net access which is the case in a lot of the third world.

          It'd be nice if I can just select up front before installation began what kind of work I want to do with my sys

  • Thank GOD (Score:2, Interesting)

    by bonch ( 38532 )
    Finally...a case of consolidation of efforts. Now if we could only get the GNOME/KDE factions to combine, we could set an example for the rest of the community who is hell-bent on forking and reinventing the wheel every time they have a beef with some dev. Right now, just running KDE, a GNOME app, Firefox, and OpenOffice at once loads up four entire sets of widgets to get things done. Seriously, think of how many times a single string class gets invented between those four projects.

    I know the "choice" a
    • This isn't really any different from, say, Microsoft. If you're running Visual Studio, MS Office, and Visio, that's four widget sets right there (counting the regular WinXP one). Throw in Firefox, and that's five. That application set isn't even contrived --- I ran exactly that combo while working on a Windows app. The only big OS that is really free of having a plethora of widget sets is MacOS X, and even then some apps (like Adobe's), include a lot of their own widgets.
      • You're not the first one to make this error. Office isn't loading entirely new GUI libraries into memory. It's using owner-drawn menus. It is still a standard Windows control but with an overrided Paint function that draws the blue squares around each item.

        That is completely different from what is going on in the OSS world, where actual multiple GUI libraries are being loaded for individual apps and environments. The equivalent to Windows would be if all those apps used GTK but with custom visual theme

  • Looking at the graph (Score:4, Insightful)

    by fozzmeister ( 160968 ) on Wednesday March 23, 2005 @02:29PM (#12027074) Homepage
    on http://bugs.debian.org/release-critical/ it looks like debian stable isn't going to be done till at least 10/05 at best or 01/06 at worst. Jesus how long has it been. I really love debian, But the longer you leave the stable distribution, well stable, the longer it gets behind testing/unstable and makes the upgrade to the new stable unimaginably worse.

    I always try to keep to stable, but I recently had to swith one server to testing coz I needed some updated programs which could not run under stable. To say it was a mess is a major understatement. It trashed my ldap and my mail configurations, the ldap had to be restored from ldif's! Heck the only thing that stayed working was NFS which was generating warnings.

    I really think testing should be kept at a "just about ready to go stable" stage, whereas stable should be "run this for a year (or whatever is deamed to be reasonable), it won't change".
    • I'm not quoting any of your post because the whole thing hits the nail on the head wrt the problem with Debian releases: Testing is broken.

      The sad thing is, nobody can fix the problems you encountered because a month from now the packages you're using from Testing will be replaced with new ones from Unstable. Despite it being the design goal for the Testing branch, it's impossible for Testing to ever be "almost ready to release" because it's never frozen. If it's never frozen, no one will be able to cont

  • Gentoo wouldn't go from roumor to story in 10 min. It'd take a really long time to sync and compile two whole distros!
  • How is the lack of a Debian release any sort of problem? I am very happy with up-to-the-minute Debian Unstable (not to be confused with the actual adjective 'unstable', which it isnt) packages. I know of quite a few servers running Debian Testing, and even a few running Debian Stable. I dont know a single person or sysadmin who runs a Debian "release" version.
    • Isn't that a problem? Maybe testing should be the new stable. The idea is I would not ever run anything labeled unstable.....no matter what it means. If unstable means it's unstable because it can crash, that's one thing. If unstable is unstable because it's constantly being updated, that's another problem. Some of it is politics. My boss would never let me load anything labeled unstable because, well, it's a political thing...;) Like it or not, good manipulation of office polotics makes you look bet
  • Since Ubuntu got a KDE by default varient called Kubuntu, will Redhat match it with Kedora, a KDE based Fedora? I am thinking about switching to Kubuntu because I prefer KDE and apt, and Redhat seems to want both of those moved to second class citizenship in favor of Gnome and yum respectively.

    Sure KDE and apt can be had on Fedora, but it isn't a default first-class thing as exists with Kubuntu.
  • Well, it doesn't sound very likely. Bruce loves Debian, and Mark has invited him on before. He said no, and that was that. Doesn't matter-Ubuntu is Debian's new (and very needed) steam- Bruce is going to have to follow Ubuntu one way or the other.

    UserLinux would do well to jump on Ubuntu's popularity though, before Debian officially becomes "the distro you build others on."

  • I find that UserLinux is itself more of a Standardization group over a distro provider. I feel its more likely that Ubuntu will get some interesting development from such a relationship. I feel that Ubuntu has already proven itself amongst normal users , by normal I mean run of the mill standard Linux users (if there is such a thing called that). That be said, I feel also that Ubuntu is alsmost safe enough to put a non Linux user in front of it and with some nominal instruction.

    I do aggree with prior opin
  • Usebuntu!
  • Of people are saying that Ubuntu is Debian done right. I agree for the most part too, But its only desktop. I'd love to see a server based distro taking the same way. It largely doesn't matter if _everything_ isn't in debian, I reckon 70-80% of desktop [GNOME] users would be happy with ubuntu even in its current reasonably immature state. I'd expect this to be > 90% when it becomes more mature.

    A server version that achieved the same thing would be amazing. I've been trying to run Debian Stable on my Dev
  • Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the main problem with Debian releases is that it supports so many platforms? And if that's the case isn't the logical solution simply to release a rock solid distro for the more dominant platforms first and allow the other ports to catch up to current release?

  • I've been running email, web, ssh and samba services under Debian Woody for quite a while now. It is still humming along nicely and not giving me any problems whatsoever. In fact, in all the time I've been running stable, there have been exactly two instances where a feature I wanted required that I install newer versions of software. Security issues are still being promptly plugged and I have had no issues along those lines. I'll grant you I may not be typical but I would MUCH rather the release took a few

  • A desperate plea to them both... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by gt_swagger ( 799065 ) on Wednesday March 23, 2005 @04:08PM (#12028361) Homepage
    I don't want to stray too far off topic, but they will probably go over how they do things and package their distros... this is a great chance for them to make a subtle but important change... PLEASE embrace LSB and try to make it stronger. If Linux could have a strong and comprehensive core platform it would solve ALOT of problems. LSB in it's current form is very very weak. I think many distros make it optional... only distro I've seen in awhile with it as an upfront option is Mandrake. A brief rundown of things a strong LSB would help: - Finding things. Where did distro X stick important app Y? No more! - Driver support. No need to greatly complicate engineering a driver for Linux by accounting for the various ways distros place and configure things. - Ease of use. Take a Linux newbie and swap distros on them. Odds are they won't be happy when some things are mysteriously gone or put elsewhere or changed around. I realize Linux by it's very nature tends to have endless variations... but driver support and familiarity would essentially "force by choice" many distros to comply if they want added userbase and drivers, etc.

  • debian (Score:4, Interesting)

    by XO ( 250276 ) <blade.eric@gmEIN ... minus physicist> on Wednesday March 23, 2005 @08:13PM (#12031025) Homepage Journal
    If it wasn't for the fact that I would have to spend a couple of entire days fixing a different distribution if i install it, every day I use my Debian box, is every day that I get more and more pissed off about how stupid it is.

    apt-get sounded great, but if you don't use "unstable" or newer, you have basically unusable software, if you need to keep up to date on anything. And the package dependencies are a living farking hell. I love "apt-get install *someprogram*" and it tells me it needs to download 300MB of completely unrelated junk to make something work.

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