Novell Releasing Hula and 200,000+ Lines of Code

H0ek writes "Seems Novell has announced at LinuxWorld Expo that they will be releasing 200,000+ lines of code to the community in the form of a project named Hula(TM). The project is derived from the Novell NetMail product and provides web-based email and calendaring. Seems our boy Nat Friedman has some info on this, too. If you were fortunate enough to get a MyRealBox email account, you will probably know what NetMail is like."

I am not an enterprise admin...

But if I were setting up an IT infrastructure at a 200+ computer office, I'd want to keep e-mail and calendars separate. I know it's probably just me, but I like having a separate calendar program.

Re:I am not an enterprise admin...

And if I were setting up [another] IT infrastructure at a 200+ computer office, I'd realise that every non-technical user expects calendaring to be part of their messaging system, since y'know their messaging system is used solely to schedule things...

Though personally, I'd love that messaging system to be IM rather than email, but that is yet to exist nicely [though Exchange supports something like it, but I've not tried it, since... it's Exchange...]

And it shows...

.. because if you were, and you tried to roll out an IT infrastructure that did *not* have integrated email and calendaring, you would likely be fired.

Seriously, if you have worked at any even moderately-sized organization, you would know that this is essential. There are people I work with, who I know would be totally unable to function without this kind of integration. And I don't blame them either - if I had to be in that many meetings / week, I would need it as well.

Re:And it shows...

I'm not saying that the functionality cannot be integrated. I'm saying that the services do not need to be tightly coupled and made into one to acheive that integration.

Re:I am not an enterprise admin...

You can run the Hula calendar separately from the mailer/MTA. We definitely want to follow the one-problem one-tool rule for people who want that.

Released as LGPL - Are you watching, Sun...?

"Licensed as open source under the GNU Lesser General Public License (LGPL) and the Mozilla Public License (MPL)".

See, that's how it's done. Simple really and no need for weeks of backtracking, bullshit and misleading statements.

Re:Released as LGPL - Are you watching, Sun...?

You're seriously comparing an

abandoned webmail program to an entire OS?

You sir are trolling.

I know of two colleges in the lower mainland of BC, Canada that are using NetMail in production for the last 4years (provide email to all students). One of these colleges just bought a new portal system that comes bundled with SunOne messaging server (email integrated portal) and they still stuck with NetMail for email. Why? Out of the box it is designed with features that make an admin's life easier (think seamless email quotas, etc).

w.r.t to the rest of your comments about Sun..
They still stick to an attitude and culture that is elitiest and down right snotty.
Reminds me of IBM in the 70s.
I don't know if Sun will survive; they claim they want to be a services company but still want to sell hardware+software bundles while VARs provide the real services.

And the reason?

So what's the rationale behind this? Is it basically the same as catching a fish and throwning it back becasue it was too little? Not enough profits? Are they hoping that open source developers will make as user friendly as Gmail?

Also, how exactly do they transfer it over to open source? Will company employees still head up the project, or do they just pick some leader in the OSS community and declare a project leader?

Re:And the reason?

This is a total stab in the dark but I'm guessing they're really going to be pushing their OpenExchange solution instead.

-dameron

Re:And the reason?

Open source hasn't yet succeeded in building a collaboration server that people can actually use in a variety of settings. We want to fill this gap with Hula.

We believe that people mainly just want the basics: mail, calendaring, addressbook, maybe shared documents.

The dominant solutions today -- Exchange and Notes -- are built on a 20-year old design that predates the web. They were intended to be platforms on which you could build tools like expense processing, vacation requests, and other things. This was called "workflow."

Today, those functions are all done on internal web sites. It's just better. Who wants to build on the Exchnage "platform" if they don't have to?

But still companies are stuck with these hopelessly big, complex servers, just to do basic email and calendaring. They are expensive, they are heavyweight. They overdeliver.

So what we want to build with Hula is, in a way, the "Firefox" of collaboration servers. Do the basics, and do them extremely well. Provide an extension system so other people can add things if they want.

Dave Camp is the maintainer of Hula; he has a lot of experience in open source and we think he'll guide the project well. Many of the Novell engineers behind the original code (notably David Smith and Rodney Price) are working on the Hula project and will continue to work on it.

We're serious about making Hula work. Stop by #hula on freenode if you want to meet us.

Re:And the reason?

I'm a (newish, but still) software engineer at Novell, and I'd like to answer your questions quickly from my little point of view.

The rationale behind this is that we'd like to put out something that's simple at first but can seed an ecosystem of its own, and, with some luck, one day become "the Apache of collaboration". Netmail was a good fit because there were very few issues IP-wise in releasing the code, and because it's a young and extensible base that has the potential to evolve into a killer enterprise-level system. If we were to open up GroupWise, for example, (if that were even possible, which it isn't) we'd be saying to the world "hey, come on and help out with our finished, mature product", which isn't nearly as stimulating as "hey, come on and help shape the future of collaboration!" The latter may be a smidge optimistic, but that's honestly what we're shooting for, if I understand Nat correctly.

As for transferring development of Netmail to the open Hula project, here's what I know and (I hope!) am allowed to say: Netmail was a very small team. The Hula team is bigger. So no, we're not just tossing it out and watching to see who in the OSS community should be the project leader. It's still our project, though everybody is free to fork if they decide we're headed in the wrong direction. That does two things: it forces us to stay honest and on the up-and-up with the OSS community, and (as of right now, no turning back) it gives to the world a useful piece of free software that can and will get more and more useful over time.

There was a joke made in the hallways here (and possibly elsewhere in these comments) in reference to South Park. Step 1: Release Hula. Step 2: ??? Step 3: Profit!

Step 2 is to play the game right, to give OSS folks what they want and what they need to help us build (or build themselves, if they so desire) a really sweet communications system. Something that there would be demand for at the enterprise level. Right now, Hula is mail and calendar. A year from now, I would be very surprised if it did not include IM, some form of VOIP, and some things I can't even imagine right now. Apache, QT, MySQL, and so on have shown that there is money to be made from a free-as-in-speech, free-as-in-beer tool if: 1) It's good, and 2) An ecosystem develops around it. That money, of course, is what Novell is looking for in the end, and I've got to say I'm pretty excited to see the way we're going after it. Microsoft built a proprietary community around Exchange, and it has dominated collaboration for years. I'm rooting for Hula's free, open community that was officially born today.

So there's two cents from a rookie Novell programmer.

Re:And the reason?

Of course, we all can't know exactly what the top-execs are really thinking, what's PR and what's for real, but I for one am glad to hear Novell has at least an rookie programmer with that sort of optimism about FOSS. I just hope your attitude is indicative of the general tone over there.

All public indications are that Novell's participation in open-source communities is in earnest, and they've been releasing some pretty good stuff to GPL (YaST, Ximian Exchange connector, now this). I'm really hoping y'all over at Novell succeed in showing that it's possible to play nice, contribute to FOSS, and still get past that old "2) ????" step and see some profit. It could provide a good contrast to other companies who seem to feel like they need to screw over everyone else and stifle their competition in order to succeed.

Anyway, have fun storming the castle!

Why the silly names ? :(

Why do people insist on calling these projects such silly names ? :P I've been trying to get my company to go with NetMail, but... Hula ? My boss will just laugh at me:(

Re:Why the silly names ? :(

Why do people insist on calling these projects such silly names ? :P I've been trying to get my company to go with NetMail, but... Hula ? My boss will just laugh at me:(

just make up an important-sounding acronym:

High-end Ultimate Life Assistant.

ok, that sucks. make up your own.

Capitalize on 'em! (was Why on silly names? )

Why do people insist on calling these projects such silly names ? :P I've been trying to get my company to go with NetMail, but... Hula ? My boss will just laugh at me:(

Ah, you mean silly names like:

Amiga or apple, bob or beowulf, cairo, dongles, EBCDIC or EULA's, FOSS, GoDaddy (I was the only one at my superbowl party to know what they sold/did before or after their ad), honeypots, intuit, java, the Kompany, lisp or LAMP, macintosh or mozilla, newegg or numega, outlook, python or perl or php-nuke, quark, raid, scsi (whether you pronounce it scuzzy or sexy), twiki or TeX, unix, vax, wifi or windows, x, yahoo, zip or zope?

(forgive me, I know there are plenty of wierder names... my point is that any new brand name or jargon carries a risk of misinterpretation)

Based on past experience, do like I do and say you think 'HULA' is an acronym. Better yet, slather on some business jargon or statistics. Your bosses will nod and and pretend to have read about it being the next new thing so they could claim credit for ordering you to use it. That's how I got to implement a LAMP server and a few other FOSS apps long before they'd trust Linux. Or how I got the ok for Numega. 'Raid'ing the important database drives scared one company's leadership until we explained it. One old boss was screamin' mad to find out that 'scuzzy' drives cost *more*. And one of my homebrewing friends got all excited when I mentioned I was helping put together a honeynet. Not that I blame him... free fermentables sound a lot more interesting than getting hacked on purpose.

Speaking of which, it's beer-fiftynine. Gotta run!

nuts for webmail

hopefully this app will work better than a certain other webmail named after a rodent with a big bushy tail.

Re:nuts for webmail

Do tell, why don't you like our ChewbaccaMail product?

Re:nuts for webmail

That statement implies you find something drastically wrong with Squirrelmail. Care to let us in on it, or shall we just chalk this up to unsubstantiated FUD?
I use the Squirrel and find very few issues with it. A couple of people at my company have gone so far as to give up standalone mail clients completely, and just use Squirrelmail, and they have no complaints with it.

Integration

For a long time I've thought that a calendar server that integrates with Outlook is the missing killer app for open source. Then we hear Evolution will be ported to windows, and an Outlook replacement is suddenly available. With OpenOffice we'll have a complete open source office and groupware suite.

Of course life is never that simple, and there's a new target for integration - cell phones. PDA sales are declining fast as the cell phone becomes the computer for outside the office. Most rhe big names, Sony, Nokia, Motarola have been offering a calendar for some time and recent ones will happily sync with Outlook. If we can have an open source calendar server that has a good web interface as well as a desktop application like Outlook and a hook into the big name mobile phones, then we'll have all the angles covered.

Outlook integration - OpenConnector.Org

For a long time I've thought that a calendar server that integrates with Outlook is the missing killer app for open source.

I thought so too, and started OpenConnector.Org [openconnector.org] a while ago to fix this.

An Outlook connector would allow the thousands of Microsoft Outlook users to connect to a CalDAV calendar server or something like Hula

Although we've come a long way with the OpenConnector project ( we now have a MAPI Message Store that loads, and lots of code to base the Transport Provider off of...) a full Outlook connector is still a lot more work. Most completed commercial connectors, I've heard are developed by a team of fulltime developers, so help is *always* needed. Even simple things like the network protocol library, which requires no knowledge of Outlook or MAPI.

At any rate, I think it is a good time for internet calendaring, especially with CalDAV coming out with so much support ( OSA Foundation, Oracle, Mozilla, and many others... ), and on track ( 5 drafts in a few months ).

Novel netmail crashed a lot

And I lost several important emails even the guy from Novel tried hard to recover data as his time permitted.

Hope this step could change it.

a reliable alternative to microsoft outlook

I really hope this turns into a reliable alternative to Outlook. Every manager will tell you that they need/rely on Outlook calendering functions.

And every time the server goes down almost every nerd at the place I work (99% UNIX shop) says something about how we need a unix mail server. But that already exists. We need an open source calender server.

Does something like this exist already or is it in the works? Last time I looked I couldn't find anything comparable.

CalDAV vs. webcal:// ?

Are they the same thing?

That is, in iCal which uses WebDAV to store .ics files, I can subscribe to various calendars via webcal:// URLs.

Is CalDAV the 'official' way of doing this?

Abandonware. Try Citadel instead.

I'd like to remind everyone that the Citadel project [citadel.org] has a complete, robust, flexible open source groupware server that, unlike Hula, is not abandonware. And, it works today, has developers actively working on it, contains a high-performance standalone messaging engine, does IMAP, calendaring (with support for upcoming versions of Kontact and Evolution built-in thanks to GroupDAV), a nice web-based front end, and all the other stuff you expect. Go check it out.

By the way, CalDAV is starting to become widely regarded as too cumbersome to implement properly. GroupDAV [groupdav.org] is the upcoming standard -- not only is it simpler to implement (resulting in fewer buggy implementations) but it also supports all the usual groupware object types -- not only calendars, but tasks, contacts (using vCard), etc. GroupDAV support is currently in beta for Kontact, Evolution, Citadel, and OpenGroupware.org. Go check that out too.

Re:Abandonware. Try Citadel instead.

It's ok to suggest alternatives and all, but if you're going to criticize a project, at least learn something about it. Novell is basing future versions of NetMail on Hula. It's not so much abandoning as it is getting people to help them work on a project for free. Read the FAQ. [hula-project.org]

Re:Abandonware. Try Citadel instead.

Hula is not abandonware. It is a project we have only started to invest in.

Come by #hula on freenode, count the 20-25 Novell employees there, and then determine for yourself what kind of project it is.

It's Mature Too

I see on their Calendar idea mind map [hula-project.org], in the lower left is 'Rob Secretary'

How many lines for..

How many lines for Novell Linux [osdir.com]?

From the same company that brings you...

... Open Xchange [open-xchange.org]...

It would be interesting to catch the differences between the two, Open Xchange has a few more collaboration engines in it, namely a project manager and bulletin board.

In full disclosure we plan on releasing OX in the office sometime soon after their .8 release. Especially now that it looks like they integrate with any IMAP server (freeing us from having to switch to Cyrus).

Another one bites the dust

Looks like myrealbox.com just became myrealslowbox.com. Thanks /.!

Without Outlook connector....

.... You're not gonna be able to get any of these in a MS shop.

Unfortunate but true.

200,000 lines of code!

That might sound impressive to a non-technical person. And sure, it is _a_lot_ of code! Only, a lot of code is not an asset, it's a liability.

A web mail system at 200 KLOC sounds like a nightmare to maintain, both as a developer and as an administrator. I bet this was a corporate project that went horribly wrong somewhere and this is an attempt to cut some losses.

Still Waiting

I'm still waiting for the Exchange killer. This look s close, but its still not there. As much as it pains me, I routinely recommend Exchange to my clients that need shared calendaring, shared contacts, a Windows client (no web stuff), and PDA sync. My clients are lawyers, accountants, and insurances agencies. All are huge users of all these features, and I can't just say "Use linux on the desktop". In the real world this all has to work in windows, and the only solution I can find in Exchange/Outlook.

I wish the hula people good luck, but there is a long way to go to match Exchange in features.

Let the flame war begin!

Code is broken/incompleate?

I just pulled hula of their svn server and guess what? It doesn't compile. Apparently novel forgot to include definition of atomic_inc and atomic_dec macros. Has anyone else had this problem?

For the sake of compleatness I'm building this on a nearly fresh fedora 3 box + reacent updates that I use for my daily work (devel). Novel claims no external dependencies are needes as can be seen here: http://www.hula-project.org/index.php/FAQ#Does_Hul a_have_any_significant_dependencies.3F [hula-project.org]

nothing new

openwebmail [openwebmail.org] does already all of it, and much more, apart from having not being officially tested for heavy use.

hula hasn't mail filter, so it cannot be considered as desktop replacement.

gmail has the abstract of the first lines of the message, and nor hula neither any other opensource or closed source webmail application seems to have this simple feature.

i couldn't see either if hula supports a javascript WYSIWYG rich text editor. or international spellchecking.

i use openwebmail as desktop replacement (web)mail application so i can have my sent-email folder always synchronized independently if i work home, office or elsewhere.

i wonder how many lines of code are needed to implement such features in hula or openwebmail.org...

Death??

Or rebirth, think about it, the older usenet gets the less knowen and used it is becomeing these days, soon it wont be worth the time of spamers as only the l33t soto speek will b euseing usenet, and then the signle to noise ratio might rise just enough to have a decent arguemtn over whos the hotest starwars babe =>

native clients and desktop shell integration

there are scads of web-based mail/calendar/project applications. if you want acceptance from the average windows-monkey in business, it will take native clients, and shell integration - right-click context-menu stuff, a "my projects" folder in "my computer", drag/drop everywhere...

who knows - once evolution is ported to windows, maybe we'll see progress on this front. a cross-platform native groupware client would be a huge win for desktop viability in businesses.

BorderMangler

I'm still holding out for the coveted BorderManager code. Not as comfotable, maybe, but much more gratifying than toilet paper.

What sort of user store? (mailbox/maildir/other?)

What sort of user store do the default MTA and POP/IMAP services use? What store does it use for storing calendar objects and entries?

Dear Novell, CEASE AND DESIST IMMEDIATLY...

... or the Hawaiian Islands will be forced to shut you down for dilution of the word "Hula". For example, uses such as "Hula Calendar" dilutes the calendar of events for hula competitions, such as our Merry Monarch International Hula Competition which takes place in May of each year.

Mahalo nui loa

It doesn't work yet.

WebAdmin isn't working right now, and won't be working until (they hope) noon tomorrow. I got all excited, emerged subversion, downloaded the source from the svn server, built and installed it... And discovered that there is no WebAdmin. Uhhhh... okay? You can log in as the admin user, but you can't actually do anything with other people yet.

Hopefully they'll iron this out, and I'll get a chance to update tomorrow and use the thing. I'm absolutely ready to blow away my qmail+vpopmail setup in favor of this sucker. I might have to install a postfix proxy to handle virus scanning, though.

shared addressbook and calendar?

Okay so I saw the screenshots and from the description it is mentioned several times that this is mail + calendaring. Two questions for anyone involved with this project or whoever has used Netmail.

1. Does this allow a team to share their schedules, calendars? Can you modify each others?

2. Does this ship with an addressbook that can be shared with other people on the server? Can you add entries in others?

Who used it?

Is it worth making a FreeBSD port for this software?

2Mail?

What does this release have to do with Novell's GroupWise, and the Open-Xchange GPL "version"? Does Novell really offer 3 different email servers, each including other groupware features like shared calendars, contacts etc? Are there more in the wings?

JWZ

has some interesting thoughts [livejournal.com] on this.

And in a related story...

And in a related story...

SCO sues Novell over the use of the number 200,000 which was used in the original unix implementation in a header file.

IBM is being subpoenaed to discuss licensing issues, and Novel is being ordered to release all 200,000 lines of public code to SCO (whose lawyers apparently didn't know that the code is publicly accessible).

A Microsoft owned company has already purchased 500 licenses of "litigation protection insurance" from Microsoft to avoid litigation in the future if SCO should win the legal battle.

Another microsoft company purchased 500 SCO licenses directly from SCO to avoid the potential of litigation, because, as it turns out, 500 licenses is slightly cheaper than the litigation protection insurance.

JWZ on Hula. Bonus track: Insides of Netscape fate

The DNA Lounge [dnalounge.com] owner comments [livejournal.com] about the "groupware Hula" (advises/admonishes Nat Friedman on?) and by the ways clarifies about the Netscape-Collabra innards.

The name NetMail...

...brings back the memories of Fidonet, doesn't it?

An interesting opportunity

With regard to a previous article [slashdot.org]:

This and other similar projects give us an interesting opportunity to compare open-source vs. closed (originally) code quality.

As a swede...

... I find it funny they call this software "Hula", which is swedish slang for masturbation. :-)

Re:Web-based email? Oh, that's sooo exciting

Yeah, but 200,000 lines of code! Think about that! Even after you remove all of the lines of "this comment intentionally left blank", you'll still have, what, 20k, 30k lines left? :)

Seriously, though: if you want webmail, what's wrong with Horde/Imp? I use that at home; it's pretty nice and full featured, if you can get past the configuration.

Re:Web-based email? Oh, that's sooo exciting

Read the article. It supports web mail---and having used MyRealBox I can say it's quite good. But, it also supports POP3, IMAP, LDAP and webcal.

So, doesn't this now start to sound more like a free Exchange Server replacement?

Re:Needed! open access app servers

iFolder is peer-to-peer. (altho it can also be done via server)

Hula is more than a webmail front-end, it is also the server.

Re:Too much Novell in GNOME?

I searched for other groupware servers in Footnotes, and at least OpenGroupware was subject of an article. No bias here. But Planet Gnome marketing really seems to be a little overboard...

Re:A pity their products suck

like what?

Being that I'm the author of the IMAP code in Evolution, I've found a few niggles in GW's IMAP code but they have all been resolved and they are quite eager to fix any bugs you can find in their IMAP implementation.