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Debian Aims For September Release Date 282
An anonymous submitter writes "Debian Planet has a good discussion of the most recent release update from the new Debian release managers. The most interesting point is the current hard freeze of base+standard and an optimistic but doable release date in September."
is this the one... (Score:5, Funny)
Debian... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Debian... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Debian... (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Debian... (Score:2)
Re:Debian... (Score:2, Informative)
It doesn't automate much more than keeping track of what stage of the install you're in.
It figures out the most likely two or three things you'll want to do next, and puts them at the top of your list of options.
Its questions are fairly straightforward (How do you want to partition your drives? What FS do you want? What partition should go with which mount point? What kernel modules do you want to install? DHCP? What IP add
Re:Debian... (Score:2)
Re:Debian... (Score:2, Informative)
http://www.debian.org/CD/netinst/
labels such as "Woody" or "Sarge" have no real meaning to me since I tell apt to use "unstable" anyways.
Stable = Stale, unless you seek stability... or somthing.
Unstable - Latest packages. NOT unstable but high quality releases. They HAVE been tested.
Testing - this is the latest really unstable stuff. Installing from here will screw up your system eventually.
Re:Debian... (Score:3, Informative)
Stable = Stale, unless you seek stability... or somthing. [correct]
Unstable - Latest packages. NOT unstable but high quality releases. They HAVE been tested.[inncorrect - this is testing]
Testing - this is the latest really unstable stuff. Installing from here will screw up your system eventually.[incorrect - this is unstable]
To recap its stable then testing and finally unstable.
Re:Debian... (Score:2)
Re:Debian... (Score:2)
The name fix (Score:5, Funny)
I think they could solve their name problems if they would rename everything like this:
Stable => Debian Server
Testing => Debian Desktop
Unstable => Debian Windows
Each name clearly denoting the level of stability for that branch.
(Let the flame wars begin
Re:Debian... (Score:3, Funny)
Well, you can, but I ignore it.
Re:Debian... (Score:2)
Re:Debian... (Score:3, Informative)
Stable = Stable = Woody
Testing = Stuff not in stable yet, but in the queue = Sarge
Unstable = Living on the edge = sid (and will always be sid)
http://www.debian.org/releases/ [debian.org]
Re:Debian... (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Debian... (Score:2)
steveha
Re:Debian... (Score:5, Informative)
Aptitude is the default apt frontend in Sarge - dselect is deprecated, although it's still available as an option in the new debian-installer for those who've got used to it.
I can honestly say that if it wasn't for aptitude, I wouldn't be using Debian. I tried to try Debian a number of times in years gone by, and always failed to get through dselect without accidentally finalising on a set of broken packages - this despite years of Linux experience. But when the debian-installer betas came out, I tried again, and aptitude was usable enough to get me through. And I like it enough that my old SuSE skills are gathering dust.
In short, Debian is no longer impossible to install. Let's hope more people who were previously put off by the bad old installation process feel inspired to try again come September.
Re:Debian... (Score:2)
Actually, that works surprisingly well. Sure, sometimes you have to do some digging to find a package that does what you want, but I can't count the number of times I've thought "I really wish I had software to do X" and did some quick digging and had it installed within minutes. And unlike source-based systems, installing packages is fast - you can generally install one and give it a spin in under 5 minutes, which makes it much easier to test-drive software.
Re:Debian... (Score:2)
Installation not quite that difficult... (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Debian... (Score:2)
Re:Debian... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Debian... (Score:2)
On a side note, is Debian's attempt at creating a source package distribution still chugging? I was looking forward to having the option to get anything as a source package, a la Gentoo.
Re:Debian... (Score:2)
Agreed, far to many people critisize the outdatedness of stable. It is outdated because it is STABLE, that may seem obvious but most people just don't get it. I have NEVER had stable break itself with bad dependancies etc. When a security update comes out I know that I can apply it without worrying about it breaking my system because of the extensive testing that goes into stable.
On my Sid systems I have to manually fix apt about once a month. It is always something stupidly easy to fix, but I don't want t
Re:Debian... (Score:3, Informative)
Just because some software is _stable_ does not imply it's _outdated_, and vica versa, of course. It might not be _bleeding_ egde, but it's still fairly current.
A couple of years ago, I bought the offical Debian 3.0 DVD. On the cover they says there are 8710 packages included. With
eh? (Score:5, Insightful)
This isn't to say that Debian sucks -- it really doesn't suck at all and I love using stable for servers. It's just not a "fine desktop" for people who just want to get work or play done without applications suddenly failing on them.
Re:eh? (Score:2, Informative)
Re:eh? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:eh? (Score:2, Insightful)
(eh?)^2 (Score:3, Informative)
Maybe the grandparent does, but I don't have to admit any such thing on my testing system. Been running testing since... Geez, I can't even remember. Sometime around when RedHat 7.0 came out. No more or less stable than any other distro.
I'm sure that unstable is... wait for it... UNSTABLE. But testing? No problems.
(/me knocks wood)
Re:eh? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:eh? (Score:2)
The next day's update fixed it - but still.
HOWTO use Debian Sid (Score:5, Insightful)
1(a). this means: apt-get upgrade if and only if there is a serious vulnerability; optionally, once a week, preferably once a month.
2. USE apt-listbugs.
2(a). this means: READ the fscking bugs. take a special look in those marked by apt-listbugs with , but DO read all of them. in any apt-get dist-upgrade, I get at most 30 bugs.
3. USE apt-listchanges.
3(a). yes, you know the drill. READ the changes. SEARCH for changed functionality, especially in packages you tinkered with the config.
1+2+3 == NEVER breaking the machine.
Re:eh? (Score:5, Interesting)
I have to ask - have you actually even used the current Unstable release?
I'm not trying to insulting you, it's just that I've talked to many who've "heard that it's that way" without actually trying it. Can you provide some examples? I'm sure there are plenty, but as far as my own experience goes, I've used it for the last couple of years without hesitation. I'm not a developer, maintainer, nor a coder for that matter. I personally use Unstable on 3 machines for desktop systems, and install it for others, and have very rarely had anything break. I'm curious to hear some "real word" examples versus those who've "heard it's not for a dekstop".
Re:eh? (Score:2)
Re:eh? (Score:2)
Re:eh? (Score:2)
Re:eh? (Score:2)
Re:eh? (Score:3, Informative)
Odd.. I maintain 5 packages in Debian and another 4 outside of Debian, and I see things breaking every few weeks on Unstable. Normally such bugs just stop the install process, you wait until the package maintainer fixes the problem and try again, but I've seen many people get bent out of shape over trivial apt-get error messages. These are a fact of life with Unstable but co
Re:eh? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:eh? (Score:2)
Re:Debian... (Score:5, Informative)
And to top off including 13,000+ packages, they've even beaten [debian.org] the release times between Microsoft's barebones desktop OSes Windows XP [com.com] and Longhorn [3drealms.com]
Re:Debian... (Score:5, Informative)
* Alpha
* ARM
* HP PA-RISC
* Intel x86
* Intel IA-64
* Motorola 680x0
* MIPS
* MIPS (DEC)
* PowerPC
* IBM S/390
* SPARC
Re:Debian... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Debian... (Score:3, Insightful)
Yet "Unstable" continues to work well for me. Sometimes I get bitten, but I love getting new software when it is really new.
When you install Unstable, it depends on your luck at the time what works and what doesn't.
I've had few problems. The essential core stuff has never broken on me. One thing you can do to minimize the danger: have multiple computers, and run your update on a spare computer. If it's happy, you can roll that update out t
Re:Debian... (Score:2)
End-users can use Testing (not recommended) or Unstable if they wish, but these aren't as well tested as the packages in Stable. Stable isn't meant for end-users, it's meant to be stable. If you find Stable useful, then use it. If you find Unstable more useful,
Re:Debian... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Debian... (Score:5, Insightful)
And for those of us who've used Debian before, we can tell you that, every so often, unstable just breaks. It's not like it's planned, but the fact is, with so many package maintainers, something's bound to go wrong - and it usually does every few months. At that point, you've got to go and uninstall and reinstall packages to make dpkg not complain about weird circular dependency problems - an irony for a distribution that so many claim is the answer to "dependency hell".
You can't test to see how reliable Debian Unstable is, either. I mean, "Debian unstable works great for me" is kind of confusing as a statement. Did it work right a month ago? How about 36 days ago? 67 days ago? That is to say, it's impossible to actually be sure that it's working right any particular day because Debian unstable is constantly changing. Debian stable, SuSE, and RedHat simply don't have this problem, and it's why many people are not enamored of running Debian off the unstable packages repository.
Thus, Debian unstable is simply _not_ what you want for reliable updating and pain-free maintenance. Debian is many great things, but realize that it has big faults once you move out of stable. It pisses me off to no end when people proclaim Debian to be the most stable (in reference to the stable branch) and most up-to-date (in reference to unstable). It's the most stable OR the most up-to-date, not both.
Just thought I'd get that off my chest. I'm a big Debian proponent, but I'm not going to lie about what's going on with it.
-Erwos
Re:Debian... (Score:3, Insightful)
The "unstable" [debian.org] moniker refers to the state of the interdependencies between packages. There is no irony
Re:Debian... (Score:2)
"As always, those of you who whine about Debian being out of date have probably never looked at the packages available in unstable and testing."
There are a lot of distributions that are up-to-date (more so than Debian) AND stable. If you want Debian to have it's famed stability, then you can't proclaim that it is up to date. That is what the parent is saying.
So your advice, well whine, that people should just use unstable if they feel debian not so up-to-date doesn't work for the people that u
Re:Debian... (Score:2)
Testing is just fine for desktop use, IMO. It's the right blend of new stuff, and stability
The downside to testing is that it doesn't get security updates. Whenever vulnerabilities are found, unstable gets them as soon as the package maintainer makes the fix, and stable gets them as soon as the security team does the backport. Typically, both stable and unstable get updated within a couple of days after a security bug is announced, and they're frequently updated within hours.
Testing, on the other han
Re:Debian... (Score:2)
Backports.org is the solution, too bad it's too small yet.
I like debian, but it will never
Re:Debian... (Score:4, Informative)
huh?
$ cat
Debian GNU/Linux 3.1 \n \l
$ dpkg -l xserver-xfree86 |grep ii
ii xserver-xfree8 4.3.0.dfsg.1-6 the XFree86 X server
Wrong (Score:3, Insightful)
I have no idea where you get this idea of too many unavailable packages. One of Debian's strength's is the sheer number of available packages. A quick check on my system shows well over 10K available packages.
As someone else mentioned, unstable is using XFree 4.3
Re:Debian... (Score:2)
Re:Yes and No....The Labels are Wrong (Score:4, Informative)
A binary package targetted at Unstable could fail to install and run tomorrow because dependencies have incremented upward in version.
WHAT? Sarge might be RELEASED? (Score:5, Funny)
Let's see... (Score:5, Funny)
Sarge released... Check
Slashdot works better with Internet Explorer than with Firefox... Check
Walls bleeding...Check.
Yup, it's the End Times.
Re:Let's see... (Score:2, Funny)
*bzzt* Sorry, you're wrong, thanks for playing. You forgot the perennial favorite:
Duke Nukem Forever... Who the hell knows.
Re:Let's see... (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Let's see... (Score:4, Funny)
ode to 503 (Score:5, Funny)
five oh three
we've seen thee a lot two odd numbers sandwiching naught
seeing a good olde friend
such a grand time
a prime, a zero, another prime
we hope slashdot
doesn't fix their site
so we may enjoy you every night
grub
Only with Firefox (Score:2)
Re:Only with Firefox (Score:2)
Re:Only with Firefox (Score:2)
You must not be looking very hard...
Nope (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Nope (Score:2)
What is happening? (Score:2)
And that is text book bad customer service.
Re:ode to 503 (Score:3, Interesting)
Five Oh Three Error
Service Unavailable
Slashdot Slashdotted
Debian Noobie (Score:5, Interesting)
to achieve their aims do they bug fix other peoples' code? do they inform the original authors of a problem? if so, what effects on code ownership does this have - does the Debian team become co-author?
anyone got any interesting stories about the Debian process along these lines?
Re:Debian Noobie (Score:5, Informative)
Sometimes. Other times, they simply "backport" bug fixes to older versions.
do they inform the original authors of a problem?
Gentoo always sends its fixes upstream when appropriate. I would imagine Debian does the same.
if so, what effects on code ownership does this have - does the Debian team become co-author?
Depends on the author of the original code and the patch. Some will require you to assign copyright to them, others don't really care because it's all GPL'd anyway.
Re:Debian Noobie (Score:2, Informative)
See the Debian FAQ [debian.org] for more information on what is "testing" [debian.org] and how it becomes "stable" [debian.org].
Re:Debian Noobie (Score:5, Informative)
For instance, I usually hang out in the #debian-desktop channel, and i'm subscribe to the debian-gtk-gnome mailing lists. In there I get to help others fix their problems, help developers find bugs and re-do packages, etc.. etc... Usually all bugs reported to the bugs.debian.org bug repository or to the mailing list get sent upstream.
After years of distro-hopping from various Linux distributions, I find Debian to be the one that gives me the most confidence in all senses: from a security point of view, from a non-vendor "lock-in" point of view, and even more importantly from a stability point of view.
Surprisingly enough, I run debian "unstable" as my main workstation at work and at home, and I rarely see a piece of software that breaks (this is despite the fact that I have become an apt-get junkie! Which means that I usually update as soon as there is some new piece of code added to the "unstable" branch).
The future version of Debian stable, code named "Sarge", is a very very solid distro as it is at this moment. I have started to exclusively install this distro on friend's and family's desktops as they move away from other OSes and welcome the Linux beauty into their lives. Out of 20 or so "upgrades" i have done, only one has gone back to the dark side after a month or so using it. Usually after they get to use a very well configured (and stable) desktop based on Debian, they never go back.
My hope is that Sarge becomes a rock-solid, easy to install, modern OS a la Mandrake or Xandros, but totally royalty free. And so far I believe that very goal has been achieve, with a few things missing here and there that might be addressed in the near future. (Like the need for a GUI to the installer, and a way to manage drivers for hardware from a GUI).
Re:Debian Noobie (Score:2)
Let's try to be orderly (Score:5, Funny)
Zealotous supporters of other Linux distributions over by the wall. If you have no clue how apt works but still want to say that rpm/emerge/tar is far superior, just raise your hand when we call on you.
If you think you're being pretty darn rebelious by railing against the use of "GNU/Linux", then stand over by the wading pool. We'll get to you once the grown-ups have had their say.
BSD supporters can congregate near the exit. We've heard some rumours about you and I want to make sure you have a clear path to the ambulance in case anything happens.
Everyone who thinks Yggdrasil is the one and only true distribution, there's a special thread for you over in the cafeteria.
Re:Let's try to be orderly (Score:2)
Re:Let's try to be orderly (Score:2)
Re:Let's try to be orderly (Score:2, Funny)
Netinstall!!! (Score:5, Informative)
It's beta 4 of Sarge but I think it lets you throw on Woody as well. Netinstalls are good obviously because it's a small DL, you end up DLing only what you need, and what you do download is fresh regardless of when you burnt the CD.
Also, I'm batting a thousand with this installer as far as getting X video working without a hitch... I can't say that for the sound server, but as they say, if you're interested in sound, you shouldn't be running Debian. :)
Re:Netinstall!!! (Score:2)
Sound has always worked perfectly for me with Debian (3 boxes, Audigy 2, Crappy integrade Ali POS (laptop), no-name POS integrated AC97 crap). One of your problems may be the use of the 2.4 kernel. I find that it is alot less likely to work (bigger chance of mistake) with the 2.4 kernel due to the lack of integrated ASLA. Give 2.6 a shot
Re:Netinstall!!! (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Netinstall!!! (Score:2)
Just scroll down to the i386 section and you'll find a floppy installer.
That's really good... (Score:5, Insightful)
September? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:September? (Score:2)
They probably meant the Usenet-september. You know, the one that started in 1993 and that will never end.
Why this obession with release dates? (Score:3, Insightful)
I've never understod this obsession with debian release dates. Since you can apt-get dist-upgrade every day to keep up to date, "release date" is simply the assigning of a particular date to a set of file versions.
Utterly unimportant in the grand scheme of things, if you ask me.
Re:Why this obession with release dates? (Score:5, Insightful)
I used to do apt-get dist-upgrade all the time on my workstation but it is not acceptable for some computers.
Re:Why this obession with release dates? (Score:2, Insightful)
You apt-get upgrade the debian/stable boxes regularly to get the latest fixes, right?
I don't see how the set of versions of a debian/stable upgraded continuously up till date X would differ from one installed with a release dated X. So the goal is the same.
Now, since it's the stable branch, updates are safe -- at least compared to not upgrading and being stuck with security issues. So the path is safe.
If you believe otherwise, if being "stable" is so important that you can't rely on [blindly] upgradin
Re:Why this obession with release dates? (Score:2)
One possible reason for slow releases (Score:5, Funny)
Not yet! It's too soon! (Score:2)
New Installer yet? (Score:3, Interesting)
The installer is what keeps many away from using Debian.. that and the *perceived* slowness in releases and having to stick with 'old' versions of items...
Reason i say perceived, is that you dont have to stick with the released version forever, you can upgrade fairily easily to something a bit more current. ( or even bleeding edge if you are brave )
Re:New Installer yet? (Score:3, Informative)
With that said, the new debian-installer is pretty nice...if you're afraid of anything not GUIfied look elsewhere, but if you have intermediate-expert skill you'll love it.
Debian sarge (Score:3, Interesting)
Yes, the security updates are a mite slower to get into testing, but usually only by a few hours or a day.
It works fine. I like it. I'm just sitting up here on my mountain being happy.
Ray Debian! Ray Fedora! Ray Gentoo! Ray Freedom! (Score:3, Insightful)
The aim of open source is freedom, and I think it's great that the Debian team, the Fedora team, and the Gentoo team each try to further the cause in their own way, each with their own focus, giving everyone so much choice.
Look how at-home Linux is on EVERY computing platform; THAT is beauty. THAT is truth, THAT is freedom!
I know I'll come off like a Microsoft (or ANY OTHER monopoly) - basher, but the days of closed-source-we-decide-what-is-best-for-you are OVER!
Thank you very much, development teams, engineers, beta-testers and users!
Ever onward! Excelsior!
Sarge Release (Score:2, Funny)
A new release system is on the horizon... (Score:5, Informative)
The following excerpt is from an interview at http://www.pctechtalk.com/view.php?id=3230 [pctechtalk.com]. It seems people are not going to be able to bitch about the outdated releases for too much longer.
technobeast: Why is the latest stable version of Debian outdated? And why is this idea with several releases? Any purpose to announce outdated versions as stable and currently usable as unstable/testing?
Martin Michlmayr: Debian has traditionally had very slow release cycles. One reason for this is that Debian has often been used for servers. As it is being used increasingly for desktops, our release cycle is not adequate anymore. We know about this and are working on implementing faster release cycles which will meet the needs of server and desktop users. Another reason why Debian is often slow with release is that our system is very large. We have more than 10,000 packages and support 11 architectures. However, we are working on solutions which will allow faster release cycles. In this process, we are moving away from a feature based to a time based release. This will ensure predictable releases.
Re:503 Errors & ^D HTML (Score:3, Informative)
long and the short of it.. someone at slashdot's end broke something... There isn't anything we can do but complain for now.
Re:503 Errors & ^D HTML (Score:3, Informative)