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Dueling Distros - It's All Good, Apparently
Posted by
timothy
on Wed Apr 25, 2001 07:26 AM
from the insert-disk-into-drive-zero dept.
from the insert-disk-into-drive-zero dept.
An Anonymous Coward points to a review listed on osfaq.com, summarizing: "Red Hat's latest release is here with the much improved 2.4 kernel. Its new features make it a compelling upgrade for both server and workstation installation. In addition, there has been more of an emphasis on security in this release than in previous Red Hat releases." Similarly, another nameless reader writes: "
The Duke of URL has given Libranet a favourable review.
It looks like Libranet may be heading toward becoming one of the big players in the Linux distributions game." I'm still looking for a good review of Mandrake 8.0, which seems to have generated few reviews so far. (Or distro reviews willing to be a little harsher in general.)
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Dueling Distros - It's All Good, Apparently
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Re:Requiem for a Debian User (Score:3)
Re:The old too many distros argument again (Score:5)
I've seen a complete computer newbie sit down at a PC running WinME and be completely confused. There's little pictures of things they can't quite recognize (yet) and just about everything moves, or pops up a window, or a menu, or something else. After an hours worth of coaching, they get the basics of how to doubleclick, how to click in a dialog box to type, possibly even how to start up IE/OE and browse the web, send email, etc...but it DOES take some time.
And they still can't figure out the filesystem. They don't understand the concept of a directory (even if you go with the "folder" analogy) - they don't know how to download a file anywhere but the default location - they don't know how to save an attachment from an email before they run it - half the time they don't know that the things they download ARE files. If it's not on their desktop, it doesn't exist.
Take this same person, now that they've "learned" Windows, and sit them down in front of a *nix box - OF COURSE they're going to be confused! *nix doesn't work the same way Windows does (and auguably, it *shouldn't*), so all that "knowledge" they have about the way Windows works can't be applied. (Well, not entirely true - moving the mouse around generally does still move the pointer, etc...)
Now - take a complete computer newbie, and sit them down in front of a *nix box. Again, confusion - the *same* confusion the total newbie had when they sat down in front of the Windows box. After an hour of coaching, they can be at the same level.
Configurability is another matter - and there's a signifigant hump to get over - that being that hardware manufacturers (who would be the ones who know their hardware the best) seldom provide l*nix drivers for their hardware. They tend to only provide Windows drivers. Why? Because Windows is what *most* people have - and *not* supporting Windows is going to hurt their bottom line. Compared to Windows, the *nix installed base of home/workstation systems is pretty low - so generally not supporting *nix doesn't hurt their bottom line.
In addition, they tend to be SO protective of their "intellectual property", that even if a third party developer approaches them and says "I know you don't support *nix, but I'd like to write a driver so people who want to buy your hardware and use it with *nix can do so" gets denied, or forced to sign so many NDA agreements that the final product would be incredibly tough to distribute anyway.
This sets up a catch-22 of sorts. End-users (home/office) want support for the latest and greatest hardware NOW - not 6 months from now when a few brilliant and dedicated people have finally been able to reverse-engineer, legally, the means with which to support that hardware at the most basic level. They don't want to have to do research before they go to the store, in order to buy hardware that is compatible, and well supported - they want to buy the newest, flashiest thing they can find on sale.
Without support from the manufacturer, you're not going to GET that kind of support with *nix. SO people stick with Windows, and turn the whole situation around, blaming *nix for a lack of hardware support, whin in fact the blame rests on the manufacturers for not providing drivers, and placing roadblocks in the way of third party drivers.
Add to this the recent legal developments with regard to reverse engineering (IE: DeCSS) and you have a VERY hostile environment for good hardware/consumer tech support on a *nix platform.
Add to this the *nix community's distaste for binary-only releases of proprietary hardware drivers, and you have a REALLY bad situation.
For configurability under *nix to match that of Windows, we need manufacturers to support, or at the very least allow third party drivers to be written, with proper documentation of their hardware's features. In order for this to happen, the *nix community has to give a little, and allow for the possibility of proprietary, binary-only driver releases (at least until an open-source alternative can be developed). Both of these are big steps, and both sides quibble about taking small ones, let alone big ones like these. It's going to be a while before the situation gets better here.
OK - enough rambling - back to work =)
Re:Mandrake reviews (Score:3)
IRNI
Red Hat 7.1 (Score:3)
Wow. I have to say, I have never seen a cooler desktop. Plus, it runs bind9, has all of the crypto stuff that was added back in Red Hat 7.0 and a ton of other stuff that makes this the way to go for anyone who wants to get their feet wet with Linux or the long-time hacker.
Not to belittle everything else. Mandrake, Debian, etc are all good distributions and I applaud their efforts and those who use them, but Red Hat has been focusing right where I want a distribution to focus: latest and greatest tempered by usability and stability. I've always found that, eg, Debian does not make this trade-off where I want. Unstable is just a little too unstable and stable is just a little bit too old. I want a middle-ground, and Red Hat seems to walk that tightrope well, making the occasional gaff, but fixing them fairly fast with their updates.
I'm a karma whore! (Score:3)
ÕÕ
Just installed Libranet last night (Score:3)
Well, as the story goes, I vowed a month ago to completely switch %100 to Linux once Mandrake 8.0 was released. I had been using Mandrake 7.x for a while, and it was pretty damn spiffy... but the versions of KDE 2 were kind of unstable among other things. With the release of Mandrake 8.0, I was really excited about an easy transition to a stable user-friendly Linux desktop. I downloaded the ISO and ran through the install. Everything was brain-dead-easy until I finished installing the application packages and went for the initial reboot. The installer kept giving me a no hdlists error, and so I tried expert install and many other options. Things got frustrating, so I decided to try something else.
Libranet was that something else. Any open-minded techie will be able to see the superiority of a Debian based distro, with regards to system updates etc, using apt-get. However, I also have two eyes which can see the superiority of KDE 2.1 to anything Gnome has the offer. I never got involved in any emotional or religious license arguements are crap like that. I just simply wanted the best Linux setup possible, and I didn't want to have to spend allot of time/effort/money to get it.
Libranet 1.9.0 has all the features I want, with a cutting edge journeling filesystem, the latest great kernel, KDE 2.1, etc... It is easy Debian based!
So the install. You want to know about the install? Well, lets just say that it ain't as easy as Mandrake, when Mandrake dosen't shit itself on you. When Mandrake's installer works, a 3 year old could install it. But Mandrake wasn't working for me at all, so maybe Libranet's more involved install actually helped.
The biggest problem with Libranet's installer was its reliance on floppies. Excuse my foul language, but it ain't fscking 1997 anymore guys. Most workstations don't use floppies anymore, using CD-RW instead. CD-RW is more dependable and its cheaper than floppies. Libranet's install requires you to make floppies if you are installing Libranet on SCSI harddrives. So, yes, the biggest and most difficult part of the entire install for me was trying to dig up an old floppy drive that I had stashed away at the bottom of a closet full of boxes of knick-nacks. After hooking it up and making the boot floppies, I try to boot my soon-to-be Linux box on them. Yup, the disks were bad, so I was back to trying to rawrite more boot disks until I found some old floppies that didn't have bad sectors all over them.
Floppies floppies floppies! After the floppy fiasco, the rest of the install was a piece of cake. And I mean easy easy easy! The installer didn't have a theme manager like Mandrake's, but the installer was doing one thing that Mandrake's installer wasn't doing for me yesterday: it was working!
Libranet's installer is super easy to use. You need to know a few obvious things to properly move through the installer for Libranet:
Again, just incase you guys don't get the point of how easy the install is... floppies can be a bitch and partitioning the drives requires actual though, but even the partitioning is as straight forward as cutting a birthday cake or a pizza, which most people have done at least once in their life.
What is Libranet actually like? Well, I could better answer this question a month from now, after using it everyday, but from what I have seen so far, Libranet seems rock solid stable and loaded with cool (and useful) apps. Of course, I was one of the cursed Northpoint customers that got his line cut, so I suck down the net through a 28.8 dialup now, but apt-get is just way too cool! With it, I probably won't download a new distro for another 2 years! If you have a dedicated net connection, like a cable modem or a DSL line... apt-get would be the Holy Grail of Linux for you. Installing and updating software is easier on a Debian Linux than on any Mac OS or Windows OS!
IT JUST WORKS!
Why more people don't use a Debian based distro is weird to me. I suggest Libranet 1.9.0 if you want to experiment with a Debian based distro, or if you simply want a better rock solid Linux setup. In my opinion, Debian should be THE core standard for all distros.
By the way, I am posting this from Konqueror, which after several hours of frantic use, hasn't crashed once. Konqueror is THE Internet Explorer killer.
Using RH7.1: BEWARE Mandrake 8.0 (Score:3)
Sadly, there is a definite bug in the Mandrake 8.0 release that is just getting recognized: The kernel was compiled with the ps/2 mouse support disabled in many configurations, including ThinkPads. Apparently, they thought that 'no ps/2 keyboard' (i.e. USB keyboard) was thought to mean 'no ps/2 mouse' as well. My ThinkPad could not access the trackpoint device (the keyboard mouse-pointer) in any way... on a kernel level. If you replace kernel-2.4.3-20mdk with kernel-linus2.4-2.4.3-2mdk, you get the ps/2 port back, but you must dig out compatible pcmcia modules for the earlier kernel. (I'm presently switching kernels between a mouseless session and a networkless session.)
It is Wednesday today, and I've been watching the cooker/cooker-fire for a new kernel, but to no avail. IMHO, Redhat got the 7.1 release out a timely way, panicking Mandrake into a premature release.
Don't get me wrong, I'm a featuritis junkie who loves Mandrake otherwise. I just wish this user-friendly distribution ideal for notebook systems were actually ready for this release.
Re:The old too many distros argument again (Score:4)
You want something thats easy to setup and configure as Windows.
You want a decent desktop OS.
You want to do C and Perl.
Why not use.. Windows?
Flamebait as I may seem, theres nothing *wrong* with Windows as a desktop OS. It doesn't feature the same level of security as *nix, nor does it have the zero cost outlay advantage, but it does work, its simple to use, and there are squillions of apps and games and stuff for it. Its a case of using the right tool for the job. Windows might just be the right tool.
The old too many distros argument again (Score:5)
I currently run Redhat 7 and after loosing some stuff on it that I liked (such as enlightenment) and general flaws and badly built stuff (missing files etc.etc) I figured I'd move to something else.
I use it mainly as a desktop OS, would like everything I possibly need already configured and if possible running, reasonably secure and dare I say it?, as close to being as friendly as Windows as possible. Ie. I don't have to piss about with config options, it does it for me and i can get on with doing fun stuff.
I use my machine for web development and socket programming (so C and perl really). I don't have a perminant connection, just a dial up which I hardly use (since the phone is miles away from the PC and we in the UK still have to pay for isp calls) so cron jobbing apt-get-whatnot isn't really useful.
I've asked about and can I get a sensible answer about what is the best desktop-come-development-come-nice-windows-style-t hing-but-running-linux distro for me? Nope, everyone comes up with totally different distros for a variety of reasons! At the end of the day its confusing me and whilst I'm by no means a linux expert, I'm not a total dunce.
I'm totally lost. Do I upgrade or not? I'm no closer to picking a distro than I was when i first started. Its times like this when I really start to wonder if maybe it would be better to have a few really good distros rather than lots that seem to do some bits well and some not.
I just know I'm going to get shot down in flames and marked as "Troll" but i'm not. I'm totally and completely lost in the maze of distributions and seem to be unable to get a sensible consistent answer from anyone.
Am I alone?
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