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Interview: Ask the Debian Project Leader
Posted by
Roblimo
on Mon Nov 29, 1999 11:00 AM
from the heart-of-free-software dept.
from the heart-of-free-software dept.
Wichert Akkerman, our interview guest this week, describes himself: "I'm a simple MSc Computer Science student who likes to work on Linux projects. I have been the Debian Project leader since February and that has taken most of my time. Debian is a project to produce a completely free operating system and as such we currently have a GNU/Linux distribution and are working on GNU/HURD as well." So ask away. One question per post, please. Moderators & assorted others will select the 10 - 15 questions we forward to Wichert Tuesday afternoon. His answers will appear Friday.
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Question (Score:2)
Feedback from Corel (Score:5)
To what extent are you seeing Corel feeding back these changes to the Debian community? How good for Debian has Corel been, so far?
Debian BSD (Score:3)
Maintainers (Score:3)
Ports Out, so Starboard Home? (Score:4)
Is Debian looking to concentrate on a small set of well-established architectures, or are we going to see Debian for every conceivable environment that Linux can run under?
Volunteering (Score:5)
What's the best way to get involved with the Debian project? Do you have a list of tasks that need to be done along with the required skills?
I ask because that seems to be one barrier keeping more people from helping out various free software projects -- they don't know where to start. If we could point to a list and say "The boot disks need testing; we expect these error messages:" or "The foo package has these ugly functions that need to be rewritten:" it would give us more concrete goals to reach.
--
Packaging Front End (Score:5)
With the things that have been learned from those attempts, is there likely to be some sort of dselect-ng ?
When will KDE be included in Debian? (Score:5)
Also, do you feel it is better to keep Linux entirely DSFG free software only, or to include software in some way restricted, such as Pine, Qt 1.x and Netscape?
Choose HURD over Linux? (Score:5)
RPM vs. dpkg (Score:5)
Free as in... (Score:3)
GNU/HURD (Score:3)
dpkg, The Hurd, and FreeBSD. (Score:5)
1. Eric Raymond has stated (during a speech, NYC :) that he believes that the Debian project is making it difficult for Linux to adopt a standard packaging system. What do you have to say in response?
2. I'm rather disturbed by the GNU Hurd's Debian-like appearance now. I was hoping for a radically different OS but I was disappointed with seeing a different underlying OS that still looks much like Debian. Does Debian have a legitimate reason for doing this?
3. Now from the GNU Hurd to Debianizing FreeBSD. My only question is: Why? Does this help improve the state of the world or simply help glorify Debian itself? I don't see a practical reason for doing this.
I am trying to understand your motives. Not ridicule them. Thank you for your time.
Slow release cycle (Score:5)
Debian GNU/FreeBSD (Score:5)
BSD/HURD and others... (Score:2)
First of all, thanks a lot (to you and to the rest of the Debian team) for an oustanding job!
Several quick questions:
(A) What is exactly the BSD/Debian project? What are its goals? Is it officially supported by the Debian project, or is it just some sort of personal projects for some Debian programmers?
(B) When can we expect a release of the GNU/HURD? Do you think the HURD is the next great thing and that we'll all have to leave Linux/*BSD to install it on our machines?
(C) On a more personal note... how do you manage all this work? Jolt, Coca-Cola, designer drugs or just good old plain caffeine? Do you receive extra credit for working on Debian during your studies? =)
Thanks again -- keep up the good work!
Corel & download age restrictions? (Score:4)
Re:Volunteering (Score:3)
Check out:
IMHO one of the best things about Debian is its openness, not just in terms of Open Source, but things like:
Deviant Debian distributions (Score:3)
Given the problems experienced with Corel Linux, which is known to be "based on Debian", what are your feelings on having other distributions derived from Debian - in particular, how 'far' away from the original should they go and is there any preference in direction that they take?
Minor Release more often? (Score:2)
At what point will potato be released, and what revision number will it have? It seems to me it would have been better to have released potato a long time ago, and release 'sub-releases' often to keep up to date, instead of waiting for that never-to-be-seen 100% perfect release.
'Release Often' is a term often used to describe Open Source projects, but it doesn't seem to apply to Debian. Just sticking in 'beta' forever.
No need for speed? (Score:2)
The current stable debian distribution "slink", is still based on the 2.0.x kernel, while the other big players couldn't adopt 2.2.x fast enough just because of the version number. With the 2.4 kernel just around the corner, how will Debian be able to compete with i.e. Red Hat, as they even might launch the next version with the 2.4 kernel as the Debian maintainers are still working on getting potato out the door?
What are the plans to do something about it? Hon the lot of geeks that are eager to help out join in, or what are the criteria or needed skills? Does one have to be an über-geek to get in?
Okay... I'll do the stupid things first, then you shy people follow.
Is debian getting too big? (Score:5)
There are many packages and they are getting more and more. ("What? There is a new window manager? - Package it!") - I don't think this is the responsibility of a distribution.
A distribution should be the base system to run linux. Every more advanced system should be installed by the unix administrator.
To make it even more worse, packages like netstd get split up in many others and packages which should be split, don't. (Look at tetex-bin. You only need xlib6g because there is xdvi in it. - If you drop xdvi in it's own package you don't have to install xlib6g and xbase on your servers)
What will you be taking from other distributions? (Score:4)
--
Updates to current stable releases (Score:5)
Is there any provision being made to allow for and support a more aggressive backporting of newly released software in current, stable releases, such as newer versions of xmms, netscape, mozilla, and so forth?
I understand and recognize that some software (e.g. gcc, glibc, X, perl) may affect too many other dependent packages to be supported in both stable and development trees, but other software such as xmms and enlightenment don't fall into that category at all, yet debian packages often are never created to support the current stable release.
Size (Score:5)
Re:Free as in... (Score:2)
This (from http://www.debian.org/social_contract [debian.org]) may partly answer your question. However, I wish I could get apt-get et al. to allow me to install from the non-free sections but always warn me when I request to do so.
Programs That Don't Meet Our Free-Software Standards
We acknowledge that some of our users require the use of programs that don't conform to the Debian Free Software Guidelines. We have created "contrib" and "non-free" areas in our FTP archive for this software. The software in these directories is not part of the Debian system, although it has been configured for use with Debian. We encourage CD manufacturers to read the licenses of software packages in these directories and determine if they can distribute that software on their CDs. Thus, although non-free software isn't a part of Debian, we support its use, and we provide infrastructure (such as our bug-tracking system and mailing lists) for non-free software packages.
Debian bureaucracy (Score:5)
Rethinking release cycle (Score:2)
- akop
Debian and the FreeBSD kernel (Score:3)
worlds as to what the `natural unit' of an operating system is. In
the Linux world it seems that the kernel is regarded as the operating
system, and the various different distributions are regarded as
flavours of Linux with their component parts being expected to be as
interchangeable as possible.
In the BSD world the whole distribution as deployed is held to be
the OS, and moving a piece of software from one distribution to
another has a bit of the flavour of a port. I think there are
advanatages to the BSD way of looking at things, since some properties
of OSs, especially security, make sense only when applied to the
system as a whole.
I am concerned, therefore, that the port of the Debian distribution
to the FreeBSD kernel might undermine this view. Is the Debian port
going to be positioned as an entirely new branch of BSD (say
DebianBSD), or is it going to be regarded more in the Linux way of
doing things? If the latter, how seriously do the Debian team take
these cultural differences between the BSD and Linux world? Who do
you see as your target user?
appliance revolution (Score:3)
Re:Debian GNU/FreeBSD (Score:3)
If a FreeBSD/Debian amalgamation were to take shape, the WORST thing that could happen would be to base the distribution around the GNU libc.
This would make binary compatibility with standard FreeBSD a nightmare, and would hamper the performance of the systems that would run such a distribution. Imagine two big C libraries, two different versions of each library depending on which C library is used, etc. Memory consumption would be phenomenal, and there is really no good reason to do it, anyway. The FreeBSD libc is at least as capable as the GNU libc, is maintained by a conscientious set of developers whose goals are quality, stability, and robustness, and just, in general, rocks.
Don't further pollute a FreeBSD-based Debian by making the mistake of putting GNU libc in the mix. PLEASE.
Besides, porting a libc to a different kernel is not a terribly trivial task. Why do all that extra work when the work has already been done for you, and the results are useable by everyone and their dog?
--Corey
Is the HURD alive? (Score:3)
I've been following the development of the HURD for one or two years now, and I haven't seen much change in it. Do you expect the HURD ever going to be finished in the sense that it can be used in a serious way?
Cheers,
Martin van Boven
What is Debian (Score:4)
size/speed of Debian (Score:5)
1) it seems Debian will forever be compiled i486,
and thus never benefit from the oft-huge speed increase of egcs/pgcc
2) the size and growth rate of Debian are, IMHO,
inexcusable. The main section no longer fits on one CD!
If it were just #1, I could probably live with it and just install a seperate compiler and library to compile and run the apps that I really need the speed from. But #2 is just nuts. The multi-CD method of install is very rough and difficult to figure out / use, and installing via ftp is simply not an option for those of us with 28.8 modems. Worse yet, this has caused the pace of Debian to slow to a crawl. "Stable" released versions contains libraries and apps of ancient (by the linux time scale) version, and the dependency structure of dpkg makes substituting self-compiled versions effectively impossible. In short, it's very difficult to have a Debian system that is at all current.
So, my questions are these:
1. Is the Debian project planning, at any point, to create a Pentium-optimized release?
2. Is the Debian project planning, at any point,
to create something like a Debian-lite, that includes only a core of packages such as commonly used libraries, X, popular user agents such as mutt, lftp, and lynx, essential and popular server daemons like sendmail, yp[stuff], nfs, and apache...? Basically, a distro of similar size to the more popular distros that fit easily onto one CD.
If Debian were to do those things, which I see as modernizing and streamlining respectively, I would switch back (or at least try it out in vmware =]).
MoNsTeR
Re:Updates to current stable releases (Score:2)
You could always build the newer package yourself. Just use apt-get source ... to fetch the Debian-ized source code (from unstable), and then run debian/rules binary to compile and build a .deb file.
You could leave your sources.list pointing to the stable binaries but the unstable sources to achieve this.
(With the unstable version of apt, you can even use apt-get -b source ... to fetch and build automatically.)
Re:Volunteering (Score:2)
That's a good place to start, thank you! I'd seen the bug tracking system before, and it's also good.
I guess what I was looking for is a place that says something like "Package X could use someone with Perl knowledge to write an installer script" or "Package Y could use a C graphics guru to optimize and prettify these functions." It's a lot of details to keep track of, I know, but it may save a lot of work later.
--
Just an idea... (Score:2)
** A lot of open source projects make projections about when a new release will be made or one atleast knows the next version number obviously. Why not build a distribution in the following manner.
(1) Look at the open-source projects included in your distro or that you want to include. Look at your current distro set your new distro to include the next versions of open-source projects you currently include or plan to include. Make that your goal for the distro and when it is reached, up your version number and set a new set of goals.
(2) All the while, maintain your current stable and basically keep upgrading it with updates with the intent of meeting your goals for the new distro version. Once it is met, your current stable goes up one version number.
(3) Allow the users to set their version level. Maybe they don't want to touch packages above the goal of their current distro. They don't need the latest windowmaker, icewm, gnome, etc.
Basically, your current stable is a set of open-source project versions (kernel 2.0.36, GTK 1.2, etc.) that interoperate together. Then you have additional packages that fit into your new distro such as kernel 2.2.12, 2.3.18, etc.) A lot more testing would be required, but considering the larger developer base debian seems to be getting, it might make better use of the resource. This is in no way a totally developed thought. You may have already considered something like what I described, assuming what I described makes any sense at all.
Releases... (Score:2)
Jumping the HURDle (Score:3)
What exactly would it take to ramp up work on the HURD so that *Debian/HURD* actually becomes reality... or maybe the question should be "is there no Linus Torvalds or Alan Cox for the lowly HURD??"
Keeping current with kernel releases (Score:3)
I've seen a number of comments already dealing with this subject but none have asked specifically what I want to know. As a new user to linux if anyone has a simple answer to my question, please answer
I've been wanting to try Debian for awhile now, the only thing holding me back is the tendency for Debian to fall behind by one current kernel release. With the upcoming release of pototo based on the 2.2 Kernel as well as the 2.4 kernel is Debian destined to fall behind once again? Are there any plans to adjust the release schedules or come up with a new release system to keep more up to date with the new software we're seeing more frequently?
IMO opinion most of the die hard Linux fans are faithful devotees of Debian yet they also want to be on the bleeding edge. It seems to me Debain would benefit greatly by keeping more up to date even if it was with sub-releases incorperating things such as KDE 2.0 and the 2.4 kernel. As I said before I'm releatively new to Linux and since I've had literally no experience I would not be surprised to find all of this is easily solved with dpkg or something similar. Please let me know if it can be.
LiNT
Re:Free as in... (Score:2)
However, I wish I could get apt-get et al. to allow me to install from the non-free sections but always warn me when I request to do so.
Then add it. I've poked around in the apt sources, and this should take about 5 minutes to add to apt-get. Now that you've mentioned it, my frontend (<PLUG/aptitude [sourceforge.net]/) may gain this ability..
Daniel
Corel Distro - User Friendly (Score:3)
Re:dpkg, The Hurd, and FreeBSD. (Score:2)
I can't speak for Debian, but the fact that the two distributions are called GNU/Linux and GNU/HURD seems to give a clue as to their intentions. They are both essentially the GNU OS, but differ in their choice of kernel.
Re:Is debian getting too big? (Score:3)
I strongly disagree with this. To me the joy of Debian is that any program I want is already available, correctly configured for my system, and I don't have to do any more than
apt-get install package_name
to install it.
Re:dpkg, apt interfaces (Score:2)
I'm also working on a frontend (so my opinion is not objective!), but I don't want to say anything else until the next release as all its nice features, including downloading packages (rather important for a package manager) are currently vapor; I know pretty much how I'm going to implement them but final exams are happening
Daniel
Re:Updates to current stable releases (Score:2)
Look (in the list archives of -devel and -project) at the recent discussion of "package pools". Essentially they are an attempt to make the archive much more flexible and make it easier to release multiple versions of a package with differing stability levels, etc. Wichert will probably tell you more when he replies, assuming your post gets sent to him (hope it does!)
Daniel
What do you say to a new Debian person? (Score:2)
With Slink being SO out of date(based on a 2.0.x kernel for starters), that's not an option to install. I need stuff like XFree86 3.3.5 for my voodoo3, some programs need to be run on a 2.2.x kernel, etc. So I decided to just point to Potato and install from there. The Potato install scripts crashed on me 3 times in a row(yes I know it's "unstable") and I finally Just re-installed RedHat 6.1.
So my question. What do you say to someone that wants to use debian, but Slink is out of date, and Potato won't install? It possible to just install Slink and "apt-get dist update" and point to Potato after a successful Slink install? How does one do a freah install of Debian now, and have an up-to-date system(2.2.13, XFree86 3.3.5, etc.)?
Re:When will KDE be included in Debian? (Score:2)
There is a project [tdyc.com] which packages KDE for a number of different distros, including Debian. You can add it as a source under /etc/apt/sources.list if you want to add KDE or KDE-based packages to your system, see here [tdyc.com] for more info.
don't forget ppc (Score:4)
there's a PPC section of the Potato part of the debian ftp site, but it doesn't have a lot of support, and last time i checked there was _no_ documentation. and potato's supposedly unstable anyway.
Please, please say this will eventually come to be a full distribution. i would _really_ rather have debian on this here mac than the quasi-redhat that is linuxppc. Not to mention that linuxppc's distribution, well, isn't perfect. there are a _lot_ of things broken right out of the box. It would be nice to have something resembling an alternative.
Phrasing the question a little better ... (Score:2)
Since you are working on both Linux (established) and the HURD (experimental), what new mechanisms, facilities or areas do you see the HURD opening up in future years beyond the Unix space that is covered by Linux?