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Ubuntu Picks Upstart, KVM

Posted by kdawson on Mon Feb 11, 2008 10:05 PM
from the their-own-sweet-way dept.
Software Linux
derrida writes "Because the traditional System V init daemon (SysVinit) does not deal well with modern hardware, including hotplug devices, USB hard and flash drives, and network-mounted filesystems, Ubuntu replaced it with the upstart init daemon. Several other replacements for SysVinit are also available. One of the most prominent, initng, is available for Debian and runs on Ubuntu. Solaris uses SMF (Service Management Facility) and Mac OS uses launchd. Over time, Ubuntu will likely come to incorporate features of each of these systems into Upstart. Furthermore, heading in a different direction from its main rivals, Ubuntu Linux will use KVM as its primary virtualization software. Red Hat Enterprise Linux and Novell's Suse Linux Enterprise Server both use the Xen virtualization software, a 'hypervisor' layer that lets multiple operating systems run on the same computer. In contrast, the KVM software runs on top of a version of Linux, the 'host' operating system that provides a foundation for other 'guest' operating systems to run in a virtual mode." Slashdot shares a corporate overlord with Linux.com.
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Submission: Ubuntu picks upstart, KVM. by derrida (918536)
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  • Great (Score:5, Informative)

    by laptop006 (37721) on Monday February 11 2008, @10:10PM (#22387526) Homepage Journal
    Except Upstart has been in Ubuntu since IIRC 6.10, nothing has even changed about the design.

  • News? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by webmaster404 (1148909) on Monday February 11 2008, @10:23PM (#22387654)
    How is this news? The Ubuntu project came up with Upstart and therefore they are going to use it? Whats next Debian using apt-get rather then RPM?

    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by macshit (157376)

      Agreed, upstart doesn't seem like news, but I'd be curious to hear a bit of back-and-forth as to the benefits of the various initscript replacements. Ubuntu makes a case for upstart on their site; it would be nice to known what others think.

      Similarly for kvm vs. xen: xen is on roll these days, with everybody and their dog using it, but it seems like the company behind it is moving in an increasingly proprietary direction, so it would be good to hear what's up with that, and how kvm compares.

      • Interesting discussion here [osnews.com]. Along with a couple low-temp flame-squabbles.

      • so it would be good to hear what's up with that, and how kvm compares.

        Because KVM requires hardware support for the virtualization, it won't work on any of my computers.

        Xen does.

        • That is a rather loose definition of "works" from my experience.

          We tried Xen as a possible alternative to VMware and it isn't even close.
    • Not to mention, I think they've been using upstart since version 7.04.

      Slashdot
      Facts for nerds. Stuff that matters.

  • kvm (Score:3, Interesting)

    by debatem1 (1087307) on Monday February 11 2008, @10:56PM (#22387900)
    Not sure how much traction KVM is going to get here unless Ubuntu can wrap it well. I'm no expert but I know my way around most virtualization technologies and KVM seems to be one of-if not the- hardest to use productively. Ubuntu has a great track record with this kind of thing though, and *if* this signals a new push in that direction I eagerly await the results.

    • Re:kvm (Score:4, Interesting)

      by neotokyo (465238) on Tuesday February 12 2008, @12:47AM (#22388636)
      You've got to be kidding, right? You can install kvm without having to reboot and be installing a guest OS (given that you have the cd) in mere minutes.

      https://help.ubuntu.com/community/KVM [ubuntu.com]

      All of two commands after you've installed kvm:

      1. create disk image
      2. launch installer

      Maybe a little more description of your experience with 'one of-if not the- hardest to use productively' claim might persuade folks that the above is not trivially simple.
      • I believe the GP may be referring to the lack of a GUI. If not, then I am - VMWare, Parallels, VirtualBox and Xen all have various GUIs to manage them, some of which are very convenient. I am unaware of a convenient GUI for kvm (the Ubuntu wiki page to which you refer doesn't mention one), but perhaps I am just uninformed? If so, please correct me.

        Also - again, not sure about this, correct me if I am wrong - but kvm requires hardware support, i.e., a fairly new CPU. Whereas some or most other virtualizat
        • Let me ask something related. I have a kind of slow home machine running Ubuntu (an old 1st gen AMD Sempron 2300+ @ 1.56 GHz, DDR1, SATA1, AGP, you get the picture), and I'd like to have some additional OSes available as virtual machines to just play around and maybe, eventually, who knows, do something useful in them. But all as a simple end user, someone who, in Windows, would be playing on something easy such as Virtual PC (which I in fact used before removing Windows and switching to Ubuntu).

          So, from al

          • Re:kvm (Score:4, Informative)

            by kripkenstein (913150) on Tuesday February 12 2008, @06:16AM (#22390220) Homepage
            VMWare Server is probably the safest choice. It's stable, works, and is fairly convenient.

            Parallels just came out with convenient installation for Ubuntu, I haven't checked it out yet. But it is supposedly very user-friendly on other platforms, so it might be worth a shot if VMWare isn't working out.
            • Except that VMware Server Beta2 replaced the simple server console app with a horrendous memory-eating Tomcat-based monster web application. I downloaded it once and when I saw a footprint of 350 MB without even a single VM instantiated, I checked the VMware forums. There, a clear commitment to this new management interface and its resource demands could be read, in spite of the protests of many many users.

              We will have to see how many have the type of hardware that one seems to need for VMware server 2. U

            • VirtualBox is just as good as VMware and it's open source. I prefer it for desktops and laptops and such. VMware is better for centralized server virtualization though.
          • VirtualBox seems to work really well.
            On an AMD AM2 machine I have run Vista Home with no problems.
            On my older AMD machine I have run Ubuntu, Kbuntu, Xbuntu, PCLinux, and Minux3 with no problems.
            Under Ubuntu you just install it from add software. The GUI is pretty simple and It seems to work just fine.

    • Re:kvm (Score:4, Informative)

      by twistedcubic (577194) on Tuesday February 12 2008, @03:01AM (#22389294)
      Wow. Dude, KVM is the only one I've gotten to work with no fuss. For me it was downloading kvm-57.tar.gz, ./configure; make; sudo make install; qemu-imw create ... image.img; qemu-system-x86_64 -hda ... ; qemu-system-x86_64 image.img. Installing Debian is best (vs, say, Fedora) because it's faster with a smaller amount of memory. Now go ahead and download KVM and enjoy!

  • Slashdot shares a corporate overlord with Linux.com.
    And I for one would like to welcome ...

  • It's a FSF/Cononical Conspiracy! (Score:4, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 11 2008, @11:59PM (#22388370)
    Beware! Richard Stallman is behind this! First they replace init with an event driven system. Next they start migrating services out of the kernel. It be proposed and seem natural to have these services driven by events (after all the init system is) . Then of course it will seem obvious to abstract the event system into its own package. This package will be called Mach. Finally a name change will be proposed that we rename Linux to GNU/Hurd. Don't say I didn't tell you! We will be butt of our own Hurd jokes.

  • Getting a tad annoyed at this.. (Score:4, Interesting)

    by arcade (16638) on Tuesday February 12 2008, @12:59AM (#22388722) Homepage
    Mac uses launchd
    Ubuntu uses Upstart
    Solaris uses SMF
    Debian uses initng
    RedHat uses sysvinit (?? not sure ??)

    Meaning that a sysadmin that needs to support those systems, need to write scripts that takes care to use the correct way on each and every platform. Blergh. I hate it when this kind of thing happen, instead of just sticking with the old stuff or _agreeing_ on a new way to do it. Instead, we now have a multitude of ways of doing it. Okay. Options are good. This isn't options though - this is differences being forced on you by various vendors, guaranteeing that you'll have to do more work.

    Blergh.

    • Re:Getting a tad annoyed at this.. (Score:4, Informative)

      by Daengbo (523424) <daengbo.gmail@com> on Tuesday February 12 2008, @01:04AM (#22388742) Homepage Journal
      Upstart still accepts the SysV init scripts.
      • So does SMF. Maybe others do to, but SMF is the only other one I know well besides SysV Init.
    • Debian uses initng

      Uh. Debian *can* use initng. I'm pretty sure it's not being installed by default, unless they've made this decision in testing (I don't have any testing/unstable boxes atm). That seems like a fairly irregular thing for debian to agree to do.

      ash
    • When I moved from Red Hat to Debian (remember Bruce Peren's UserLinux ?) and to Ubuntu the thing I missed was the clarity of SysV init and the simple tools to add and remove programs from a runlevel.

      The article quoted shows examples of upstart scripts. I don't quite see if compatibility with SysV init is a goal of upstart.

      It sure would be nice if upstart means easier application sharing between Red Hat and Ubuntu.
      • "When I moved from Red Hat to Debian (remember Bruce Peren's UserLinux ?) and to Ubuntu the thing I missed was the clarity of SysV init and the simple tools to add and remove programs from a runlevel."

        The problem is just your ignorance; don't put the blame on anyone else.

        Debian and Ubuntu *use* SysV init scripts by default and they have *one* single tool to add and remove programs from a runlevel (update-rc.d).
        • I happened to be interested in this, so took the opportunity to see what man had to say about update-rc.d.

          Please note that this program was designed for use in package main-
          tainer scripts and, accordingly, has only the very limited functional-
          ity required by such scripts. System administrators are not encouraged
          to use update-rc.d to manage runlevels. They should edit the links
          directly or use runlevel editors such as sysv-rc-conf and bum instead.

          Thus is from Ubuntu 7.10 x86_64.

    • Which is why everything needs to stay on a common standard communication interface while behind-the-scenes system reformation is allowed to occur, and entirely new features are tacked onto the interface as additional settings or new commands, ensuring backwards compatibility.

      There is no point in using a completely different interface for two things that do the same thing though, and going back to the topic Upstart is supposed to be "compatible", though it'd be nice to use an identifier/name and flags that
    • There is no way Apple will agree on agreeing with anyone else - especially if it's some pesky open-source distributors or Sun, who are not in the desktop, but the server market (mostly). They are a) going to buy the stuff (cups, khtml) b) or completely ignore everyone else and roll their own, like they always did.

      I don't say this is a bad thing - I'm rather trying to point out that the OP is wishful thinking. And to add to the list: Gentoo has several alternatives. Heck, there are two versions of their ba

      • There is no way Apple will agree on agreeing with anyone else - especially if it's some pesky open-source distributors or Sun, who are not in the desktop, but the server market (mostly).

        Actually, Apple frequently adopts technologies and standards from both Sun and Linux distros. The thing is, Apple also is not willing to compromise on all things and will sometimes roll their own when they think they can do it better and cleaner (sometimes just better for them). They are less interested in being just like everyone else than they are in doing what is right for their developers and users. I think LaunchD is one example of this and Webkit is another. In the first case they created a new solu

  • At last year's Linux.Conf.Au I attended both the virtualization mini-conf and kernel hacker virtualization talks with interest, since I dabble a bit in virtualization but not enough to keep up to date on current trends.

    I was struck with the immense gulf in opinion between the "virtualization folks" and the "kernel folks".

    Most (possibly all) of the talks in the virtualization stream could be summarized as "Xen! Xen! Xen! Yay! Yay! Yay! Xen, xen, xen, xen xen, xen, xen. Xen! Xen Roxx0rs! Xen! Clients! Xen! Xen! XEN!!!". Lots of action, lots of progress, lots of excitement, lots of Real People in Real Companies doing Real Work and discovering Best Practices.

    It was quite a shock to walk into the "kernel hacker QA" with kernel maintainers from several big linux distros and some major names and here a simple "Xen sucks. Use KVM". Talking to one unnamed kernel hacker who actually wrote a big chunk of Xen code, even he basically flat out said Xen was a terribly solution which he only saw as a stop gap until KVN had picked up some speed.

    So the impression I walked away with was that while Xen is the current poster child for virtualization, its days are numbered.

    Once KVM has had time time to move away from being shiny new code that only a kernel dev could love to a Real Product Xen is going to have its ass kicked by the new Blessed Child.

    Fortunately I don't have anything invested in either side (I mostly use qemu because my needs are more for pure isolation and speed isn't needed at all) but it looks like this match is shaping up as a hell of a flame war.

    And by the sounds of it, Ubuntu just threw lit up the first flamethrower on behalf of KVM.

    Now where did I put those marshmallows.
    • So, what, your point is that, since KVM is better than Xen in the opinion of experienced techies, it will kick Xen's ass on the market?

      When did technical superiority ever matter on the market?
      • If we end up with two competing open source virtualization strategies with commercial support, but one has the blessing of (and encouragements for) the kernel devs and the other doesn't, then over the medium term, then quite possibly yes.

        Or at least that's the impression I got from the kernel dev I had a few drinks with.

        But hey, he could be wrong.

        My point is that by the looks of things, we've got a pretty major competitive war coming, and Ubuntu going to KVM isn't as unusual a choice as it might seem.

      • When did technical superiority ever matter on the market?
        Since when did market share dictate Linux design decisions?

        Linux (and open source in general) is much less swayed by commercial popularity than proprietary vendors are.

        • IIRC, in the time of discussions, it was said that Xen can always use KVM.

          KVM is essentially official kernel interface to virtualization hardware. But Xen has to work even without hardware support so they do lots of things on their own.

          As soon as number of servers with hardware supported virtualization reaches critical mass, Xen would start using KVM where available since it is part of kernel, since it is official interface.

          IOW, in long term Xen and KVM are complementing, not competing technologi

    • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward
      "the first" flamethrower? Huh? Fedora has been supporting KVM for a while! Yes, Fedora _also_ supports Xen, but that might change, given that Xen is always a few kernel versions late and Fedora ships very recent kernels (so there's now a special old kernel-xen used for the Xen Dom0 and DomU kernels, basically the situation sucks).

    • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

      by digipres (877201)
      And if the virtualisation waters weren't already muddy enough, we have kernel hacker Paul http://www.rustyfacts.com/ [rustyfacts.com] Rusty http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rusty_Russell [wikipedia.org] Russell coming up with lguest http://lguest.ozlabs.org/lguest [ozlabs.org] .

      So we have a kernel guy and his own take on Linux and virtual machines. This may prove hugely popular, though I hear that not too many turned up for Rusty's lguest tutorial at LCA08. Then again that may be because he scared us off with a "if you haven't done the homework, d
  • Doesn't KVM require virtualisation extensions to run? Will Ubuntu be integrating qemu's CPU virtualisation into the UI they write so it can be used for more than a tiny fraction of the Ubuntu using population?

    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by CmdrTHAC0 (229186)
      It requires them to run with performance, yes. It falls back to pure emulation when they aren't available, because it *is* still qemu as well.

      Meanwhile, my crystal ball shows me that VT-capable hardware is not going away, so the "tiny fraction" will become the majority. It seems important to consider them when thinking of future directions.
  • If UML gets SKAS support on AMD working there wouldn't be any argument about what is the best VM on Linux. It works great on Intel hardware.
    • Some folks don't like the terms of Apple's APSL license, and that'd be a factor. But notice that the major Linux distributions is agreeing on any other single system, either.

      I think mostly they're going off on their own because it's a fun little problem to work on, but obviously it'd be to the advantage of sysadmins everywhere to have a standard, maintainable services startup system. Maybe a clear winner will emerge, and at least keep Linux from fragmenting too much.
      • The license problems refer to time when initd was not apache licensed. This is a newer comment (from the page you linked to, btw):

        it still doesn't meet our requirements, so would be only a base for our own work. We've already implemented enough that it'd be a backwards step to start again based on launchd.

    • Re: (Score:2, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward
      It's actually dildi.

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