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Debian On the Openmoko Neo FreeRunner Phone
Posted by
Soulskill
on Fri Aug 15, 2008 10:59 PM
from the now-with-extra-open dept.
from the now-with-extra-open dept.
BrianWCarver writes "It was inevitable. One can now run the entire Debian distribution (ARM port) on the Openmoko Neo Freerunner. We previously discussed the July 4th launch of this GNU/Linux-based smartphone, which is open down to its core, with the company providing CAD files and schematics for the phone. Openmoko released an update to their software stack earlier this month, called Om2008.8, which is still a work in progress. But now one can use these instructions on the Debian wiki to open up the possibility of using apt-get to access Debian's more than 20,000 applications on your phone, which, due to integration with freesmartphone.org efforts, can also actually be used as a phone. There were previous efforts to run Debian on the predecessor product to the Neo FreeRunner, the Neo 1973, but with the wider adoption of the Neo FreeRunner and the hard work of many Debian developers at the ongoing DebConf 8, carrying Debian in your pocket has just gotten a lot easier."
Related Stories
[+]
Mobile: OpenMoko In Stores On July 4 212 comments
ruphus13 writes "July 4 will be day when OpenMoko's Neo FreeRunner will be available to US consumers. Being Open Source, it is modifiable down to the core. From the article: 'The FreeRunner is based on a GNU/Linux, and it will initially ship with basic software to make calls, send and receive SMS, and manage contacts. But the company is encouraging users to write and install their own applications. Software updates will add features to the phone over time, and the company said an August update will enable location-based services.'"
[+]
Mobile: Canadian Firms Get Behind OpenMoko/FreeRunner 140 comments
mario writes "Now that the OpenMoko platform has stabilized enough to provide the OM2008 image (supporting the three major toolkits), things are starting to heat up. Linuxdevices is reporting on the start of a port of Devicescape's connect application. Koolu (another Canadian company) is also doing development for its W.E. phone (a branded FreeRunner). Which leads me to ask: Where are the American companies?"
[+]
Mobile: E17, Slimmed Down For Cell Phones 166 comments
twitter writes "Want to run Enlightenment on your cell phone? The Rasterman's recent efforts bring E17 to Open Moko FreeRunner and Treo 650: 'According to the Rasterman, when used with his updated illume stack and new Elementary widget set, E17 can now run in just 32MB of RAM, on an ARM9 processor clocked at 317MHz. To prove it, he is distributing a Linux kernel and E17/Illume/Elementary stack for Palm's Treo650. The stack can be launched from PalmOS without touching the device's flash storage, he says.' While Microsoft fumbles with limited 'instant on,' GNU/Linux rules the embedded world and that's the only thing going in the IT market right now."
[+]
Hardware: Debian Running On the T-Mobile G1 127 comments
chrb writes "Following hot on the heels of the G1 root exploit, Jay Freeman now has Debian ARM running on the G1. The RC30 update has fixed the root hole, but with utilities and images already available to replace the flash image with your own signed code, it looks like the manufacturer-hacker arms race is on."
[+]
Mobile: No More OpenMoko Phone 219 comments
TuxMobil writes "Bad news for FreeRunner fans: development of the first Open Source smartphone will be discontinued. (English translation via Google)
OpenMoko executive director Sean Moss-Pulz said at OpenExpo in Bern (Switzerland)
that the number of staffers will be reduced to be able to stay in business. OpenMoko
had high intentions: the offspring from Taiwanese electronic manufacturer First International Computer (FIC)
wanted to produce an Open Source smartphone. Not only with Open Source software pre-installed, but with
free drivers and open specifications of the hardware components. This would give programmers as well
as users complete freedom. Up to now the manufacturer has produced two models, the first has sold 3,000 units and
the second one 10,000. Both models were targeted primarily to developers. From the beginning,
OpenMoko had to fight with different problems. The smartphones came onto the market after a huge delay. Some phones
came with construction defects. Also, changes in the team slowed down the development. Software development
for the current smartphone will be continued but with fewer resources, Moss-Pultz said. He still hopes the
community will support the FreeRunner."
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Great (Score:4, Funny)
Debian's more than 20,000 applications on your phone, which, due to integration with freesmartphone.org efforts, can also actually be used as a phone...
You're saying that I can install debian on my computer and use it as a phone? The computer weighs about 15kg already. I just need to add a truck battery (another 20kg I guess) and a small array of solar cells (another 180kg). I will then have an utra-portable cell phone! And, it weighs in at only 215kg!
Re:Great (Score:5, Funny)
There we hae it ladies and gentleman. After years, I think we can say we have found the person with the least understanding of the article and summary.
RTFA? This guy obviously didn't even read the TITLE fully. In fact, given his laughably silly comment, it very well may be that he only read the first word of the title and had some objection with "Debian" and portability.
May I present the new standard setter for Slashdot cluelessness, the man who didn't even RTFT!
Parent
Re:Great (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:Great (Score:4, Funny)
I lagged behind, thought it was just another deadline.
Parent
Can it reliably make phone calls yet? (Score:5, Insightful)
Last I checked, the dialer and address book applications weren't done yet. While it's great that it can do shit like compiling code and whatnot, it's not gonna do me -- as a person who, although a fan of Free Software, doesn't plan on doing OpenMoko development -- any good until it can make phone calls!
Re:Can it reliably make phone calls yet? (Score:4, Informative)
Parent
but (Score:2, Funny)
but does it run.. oh, wait, yes it does.
Re: (Score:2)
Great (Score:5, Interesting)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6c0eVdj4E7w [youtube.com]
...and run Debian on it too! "Hold on honey, just one more minute...or so...and we'll be running XTerm. It'll be cool!"
On a more serious note, I do happen to love this. You can't expect a geek to know how to do a debian install *and* grasp things like interface design or usability, but nothing's stopping somebody with the skills from building on that foundation.
Great learning tool. But what else? (Score:5, Interesting)
Somebody help me out here. I get that the OpenMoko has great potential as a learning tool - that's unquestionable, and I applaud their efforts. But I'm really struggling to understand whether there is any use for this outside of the learning context.
In terms of platform, Symbian is on its way to being open-sourced, and Android is supposed to be F/OSS as well. I don't think LiMo is going anywhere, but it has the same virtues of openness. And if you care more about open development environments than license types, Windows Mobile already has a huge and growing smartphone applications ecosystem. On top of that, there are also easy ways into developing for the RIM, Palm and iPhone platforms.
In terms of hardware, this device seems to be lacking even a workable data connection - GPRS is tunneled packet data over channelized voice so you're looking at best case speeds of a 1994 modem (9.6 kbps or so). So broadband apps are out, as is useful e-mail/calendar syncing - at least over the GSM networks. It's also more expensive than the carrier-subsidized devices that everyone likes to complain about how overpriced they are with subsidies ...
So this isn't a rhetorical question, it's a serious one. Other than for folks who just want to learn about the guts of GSM and mobile devices, who would get a practical benefit from buying this phone vs. a Nokia/Symbian, HTC/Android or any other devices from the WinMo, Palm or iPhone families?
Re:Great learning tool. But what else? (Score:5, Informative)
The answer is that OpenMoko predates all those things.
Parent
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
The answer is that OpenMoko predates all those things.
So? Just because it's first doesn't mean it's any good.
I guess maybe that Openmoko is great for leading the whole Open Source Smartphone movement, but Android actually has backing and is usable out of the box. Once you unleash Android, there's no turning back and Openmoko will be a useless anachronism, that is, unless they have a plan to compete with Android (step 1: Make it so that you can actually use it as a phone without a bunch of complex incantations and rituals).
Re:Great learning tool. But what else? (Score:5, Informative)
Devices that run Android don't even exist yet. How can you possibly claim it will be usable out of the box?
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
He installed it on the OpenMoko
Re: (Score:2)
Symbian goes back to the late nineties.
Re: (Score:2)
I meant that OpenMoko predates the freeing of Symbian.
Re: (Score:2)
openmoko is the only one that is not currently vaporware.
There is a sdk called android, and a promise to open source symbian (anyone know the licence?).
The only phone and software stack where you can actually make any changes is openmoko, we need to wait till the first devices come out and for google to decide before android is open source and who knows how many months/years till simbian is open.
It does have 2.5g (edge) so it should be fast enough for some internet even if it isn't as fast as 3g.
The extra s
Re:Great learning tool. But what else? (Score:5, Informative)
I have high hopes for OpenMoko - if they can release a HSPDA phone in a year or two with a bigger screen then I'll definitely buy one.
Parent
Re:Great learning tool. But what else? (Score:5, Interesting)
If that doesn't matter to you, it probably isn't the phone for you. Others are more mature, and offer greater economies of scale. If you do want Freedom on the handset, the OpenMoko is it.
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
If that doesn't matter to you, it probably isn't the phone for you. Others are more mature, and offer greater economies of scale. If you do want Freedom on the handset, the OpenMoko is it.
Fair enough, that is a reasonable rationale.
The reason that I asked the GGP question is that I don't see what the value is to "Joe Mobile Phone User." My personal belief is that mobile devices are one area where simplicity trumps openness/configurability for the everyday user.
My personal $.02 is that mobile devices (potentially excluding the iPhone) have been Exhibit A in the case against software developers understanding the value of usability. Nearly everyone - from RIM and Palm to WinMo and LiMo - develo
Re:Great learning tool. But what else? (Score:4, Interesting)
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
Honestly, I just bypass the phone and go directly to my Nokia N810.
Since it does basically everything except calls, just tether it to the network of your choice and use it for everything except making calls. You could even install the Skype or sign up or Gizmo and then it actually does makes calls! As long as there is Wifi around, or you've got set up a connection to the faster gsm/cdma networks.
These are the people that bought up Trolltech, after all. And just about any OSS app that can run on the thing
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Pretty simple: The Openmoko is the closest thing to a "PC" of the phone world that you can get.
That doesn't actually sound like a good thing. It sounds like something to avoid.
Re:Great learning tool. But what else? (Score:5, Insightful)
Then you're missing his point.
The great thing about PCs is that they're open, you have full control over what software you run on it and you can do whatever you like with it.
Traditionally, phones have been excessively locked down.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
even with jailbreak the iphone is still more locked down than windows mobile.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I have a Freerunner with the hope that I'll be able to use it as a learning device. Right now I've got the Om2008.8 installed and it's barely usable.
I'm hoping Openmoko will be able to keep up a quick development pace. Since switching away from GTK and moving to Qtopia over X11 and Englightenment they've really come a long way. I have doubts that the Openmoko software will be stable and reliable any time soon, but hopefully a developer community will grow out of all the new Freerunner customers.
Another p
Right, but...? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Right, but...? (Score:4, Informative)
http://www.joachim-breitner.de/blog/archives/297-guid.html [joachim-breitner.de]
The hardware
It was smaller than I thought, and is quite light. My girlfriend says it's ugly, but I'm fine with the look of it. Besides being a GSM-phone, it comes with some nice gimmics: GPS, accelerometer, WLAN. The touchscreen works fine, although I don't have anything to compare it with.
The software
The system it comes with, even after upgrading, is still very rough. It mostly works for doing phone calls and SMSs, but there are a number of unsolved quirks that prevent me from using the Freerunner as my sole phone for now. The suspend mode is left too often, resulting in a battery life of about eight hours, and there are issues with the audio for the conversation partners, who will hear static and echoes. But, as this is free software, there is hope that this will be fixed eventually
It's ok if you bring a Lauterbach and a laptop with you when you carry it. And TALK LOUDLY to make sure people can here you over the static and echoes. Echoes. echoes. ec...
Parent
Re:Right, but...? (Score:4, Funny)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
``However... what is it really good for? A phone? Because it really looks like the typical "you can run Linux on it" thingie: you spend 95% of your time tinkering with it and the remaining 5% using it... if you're lucky.''
Not the way I see it. To be completely honest, that used to be the way I used Linux on my PC. Perhaps it used to be the way anyone used Linux on their PC. But it's not like that anymore. Nowadays, I use Debian, because:
1. It costs me less time in maintenance than any other operating system
Can you still buy it direct? (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: Great learning tool. But what else? (Score:3, Interesting)
Everything starts this way.
> Symbian is on its way to being open-sourced
So is Java. Has been for ten years now. Wake me when it happens.
(To be fair, Java *has* made real progress in this area, but it was not as smooth or fast as anyone thought it would be - to the point that it got to the very brink or obsolescence a couple of times)
> Android is supposed to be F/OSS as well
Except, compiled against non-standard libraries. Which, in practice, is the only thing that stops it being used, as a software platform, by the OpenMoko itself, right now (and in principal, even this could be overcome, depending on exactly what form the Android codebase ultimately takes)
> Windows Mobile already has a huge and growing smartphone applications ecosystem. On top of that, there are also easy ways into developing for the RIM, Palm and iPhone platforms.
Yeah, if you want apps specifically for a phone. If you want to compile a current desktop application and use it on your phone, or even the other way around (maybe you really like your calendar/contacts application), well, none of those platforms really allow for that. It's not an Achillie's Heel (yet), but it is a weakness (from the point of view of a developer, mostly, but still).
> In terms of hardware, this device seems to be lacking even a workable data connection - GPRS is tunneled packet data over channelized voice so you're looking at best case speeds of a 1994 modem (9.6 kbps or so). So broadband apps are out, as is useful e-mail/calendar syncing - at least over the GSM networks.
You have WiFi and Bluetooth if you can use it, GPRS as an emergency fallback. It's a phone, not a mobile contact manager. The distinction has been blurred, but primarily, it's a mini computer that can also make phone calls. It also has USB, so there's the possibility of a HSDPA adapter working if you want. If you *must have* built-in world-wide location-independent high-bandwidth wireless data communication... then yeah, this might not be for you. The next revision might be, but this is version 1.0. Don't you know what they say about 1.0 software? It's never as good, in quality terms, as the idea behind it. But it will be, if it makes it to a few versions beyond that.
> It's also more expensive than the carrier-subsidized devices that everyone likes to complain about how overpriced they are with subsidies ...
Carriers will never subsidize a truly open phone. They lose the ability to lock the phone to their network, to extract premiums from DRM'd software/music sales, etc. Any truly open phone will have to succeed on its own merits, because people will have to want to buy the phone at whatever price. One great way to do that is make it do non-phone things as well, so the phone portion of your purchase price is smaller (except, this only works if you *want* the non-phone portion of the phone - think cameras or mp3 players). Think of it more as a micro-form-factor sub-notebook, with a GSM module, making it a practical phone. Common folks don't want their phone to be a computer (heck, they often explicitly refuse to accept it), but that's okay - it's not for them. If, and only if, it is successful enough, then either economies of scale will bring it to the masses at a price they will accept, or clones/imitators will persuade them to embrace this kind of phone.
> So this isn't a rhetorical question, it's a serious one. Other than for folks who just want to learn about the guts of GSM and mobile devices, who would get a practical benefit from buying this phone vs. a Nokia/Symbian, HTC/Android or any other devices from the WinMo, Palm or iPhone families?
I want Open, no matter the cost. I want to be able to open it, dismantle it, reconfigure it, alter it, change it (not necessarily *do* and of those things; just be able to). That's why I got one.
What other phone do you know of where you can buy a debug board for it from the same store that sells the phone - the same board that the phones' engineers used to develop it?
But is it a phone worth having? (Score:5, Insightful)
I've been saying this about my laptop for years, but I guess now it's time to say it about my phone as well.
The phone I use is small, sleek, looks and works great, and does everythin I need it to. It makes phone calls, does SMS messaging great, and I can sync it with my laptop so all my contacts are updated, always. It also has the nice benefit of having a unix core, dpkg, apt, and a slew of unix utilities. It has a terminal with SSH and telnet, I can mount it as a volume over the network, and it plays music too. Even making ringtones for it is as simple as encoding them as AAC.
So they have Debian on a phone. Great. But just like Debian on desktops, I have to ask myself why anyone but RF geeks would ever care.
My phone, like my computers, are for getting things done. Call me when this thing is useful and usable.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Yeah, iPhones are cool - *if* they are jailbroken (Score:4, Insightful)
...I've got one too. And until I jailbroke it, it couldn't ssh, it didn't sync very well, I couldn't install any unix apps...
If you keep the iphone firmware intact, it is just frustrating to know that there is this awesome bsd-based smartphone that stores basically everything in little sqlite databases - THAT YOU CAN'T USE!
I love the functionality of my hacked iPhone, but Apple's attitude with the appstore has really underscored the need for free software to me.
I have decided to no longer purchase apple products or services as a result of my experience with the iPhone (been a Mac user ever since they rolled out OS X).
An openmoko freerunner is definitely on "to buy" list - not because I expect it to be super-functional out of the box, but because I want to (financially) support the concept.
I'm sick of being unreasonably prevented from using the full capability of products I purchase.
If you're happy with one company being in charge of what software you can run on your phone, what network ports you can connect to, what access you have to backup your own personal information...then by all means, stick with the iphone. Good luck with that. I've been burned one too many times by vendor lock-in I guess.
Just my $.02
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
More links (Score:2)
Could you have put any more links in the summary?
Open down to its core?? (Score:2, Insightful)
We previously discussed the July 4th launch of this GNU/Linux-based smartphone, which is open down to its core, with the company providing CAD files and schematics for the phone.
I don't think so. Provide all the CAD drawings you like, but companies still own the designs and patents for the processors and other chips used to assemble the phone. Providing a CAD drawing of the assembly doesn't give you the ability or legal right to reproduce those chips. So how can the hardware be considered open or "free" to the core? That's marketing bullshit, not truth.
One would think the "core" of phone hardware would be you know, the actual units that do the work, not their arrangement on a circu
Re:Open down to its core?? (Score:4, Insightful)
Totally Free hardware is an ideal, but it's not feasible at the moment. If you want to go over to OpenCores and start designing a HSPDA chip, then that would be really great. I'm sure the OpenMoko people would love to use it in the next generation, assuming that they can find someone who will fab it cheaply and pay for getting it certified.
The reason people care more about software being free than hardware is twofold:
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
What are you, stupid? Do you not understand that chip fabs are slightly less accessible to normal individuals than compilers are?
Yeah, more limited like an abacus! Even a fucking four-function calculator requires millions of dollars worth of equipment to manufacture the integrated circuits, LCD screen, etc.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
If you used individual transistors, you'd barely be able to fit a single ALU in the space occupied by the entire case of a modern mini-tower PC. Your "computer" would fill up a large room, consume megawatts of electricity, cost millions of dollars, have a clock frequency measured in the tens or hundreds of hertz, and have the same capabilities as that same four-function calculator that I mentioned before.
Umm, Debian on the Neo1973 is working just fine (Score:3, Interesting)
I currently run Debian on my Openmoko Neo1973. The summary implies that it doesn't work, but it absolutely does. I run xfce, with compositing turned on, and it works fine. The pkg-fso is the bit that gets the whole freesmartphone.org stack integrated with debian, so you can use it as a phone.
FSO is the stack that I ran on my phone pre-debian, and it was plenty stable as a phone. The only issues the phone /really/ has are that the other party gets echo sometimes, and yeah GPRS is less great than 3G/EDGE.
But I'll take a phone that's open source any day. Seriously, this is the wearable computer I've always wanted. Couple it with a bluetooth keyboard and just get happy already. I've run at least four different distributions on the phone so far, and it just feels like computers used to.
-Josh
Getting a Carrier Account? (Score:3, Interesting)
How do I get an account with a mobile carrier in the US, so this device can actually connect to a wireless phone network and actually make calls?
Is every carrier going to charge me some ripoff fee for an account because I didn't buy my phone from them? Or maybe this unlocked phone will finally let me buy an account with multiple carriers, so I don't get ripped off when "roaming" that does the exact same thing.
When will the US let me choose my mobile phone carrier the way I choose my PC's ISP?
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
well we are talking about Debian here.
Re:Neo 1973? (Score:4, Informative)
(I think you're being funny here, but for the record) 1973 was the year of the first call on a mobile phone.
Parent
Re:Neo 1973? (Score:4, Informative)
No it wasn't... the first (cellular) call of a mobile phone would have been somewhere in the mid-60's...
The first "mobile" phone call, was probably in the early 1900's, using radio, however it was limited to a few channels, but could be linked into an actual phone network, albeit cumbersome and annoying, with middle-men.
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
Isn't that a good thing? I don't know about you, but I have rarely seen the need to take the spur of the moment photo.
Plus, lighter the mobile stack is, the more reliable it gets. I can give examples of my current phone where turning on the camera almost always causes the phone to crash.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
PS: Please don't respond with one liners and/or comments about how "free" this phone is, you're missing the point. It's a phone.
Actually, I think you are missing the point. I don't see the Freerunner as a product, I see it as a proof-of-concept. The best outcome for the OpenMoko project is similar to that for OLPC - have other manufacturers take their designs and build improved versions. Right now, Apple, Nokia, and all of their competitors spend a lot of money developing their hardware and software. This is exactly the situation that the personal computer market was in in the early '80s. Then systems like CP/M and DOS started