Retailer Refuses Hardware Repair Due To Linux

Tikka writes "Today I visited PC World (London, UK) because my 5-month-old laptop has developed a manufacturing fault: the hinge to the display has started to crack the plastic casing. Anyone in the know will know that this is due to the joint inside, and it means that in time the screen will separate from the keyboard. Repair was refused, because I have Gentoo Linux on my laptop, replacing the Windows Vista that was pre-installed. PC World said that installing Linux had voided my warranty and there is nothing they will do for me. I spoke to a manager, who said that he has been told to refuse any repairs if the operating system has been changed. I feel this has really gone against my statutory rights and I will do everything I can to fight it. I will review comments for your advice."

ahem.... are you sure?

[yagu (721525)]

Are you absolutely sure Linux did not cause that crack to form? Think about it, the laptop was rated obviously Vista® capable... did you see anything on the case to indicate Linux capable?

I think the best thing to do would be to publish as broadly as you can the make and model of this laptop and its shortcomings, better to serve others to avoid this vendor.

Re:ahem.... are you sure?

[Kryptonian Jor-El (970056)]

YOU'RE LUCKY THATS ALL! I've heard Gentoo can cause the computer to explode! You should put Windows back on there before the motherboard melts

Re:ahem.... are you sure?

[smitty_one_each (243267)]

Gentoo can only trigger explosions if you set -O6 or greater in your make options.
This is because the resulting binaries run so fast that the CPU melts too rapidly for any gas to escape, and then, BAM: yo' junk goes down faster than a Britney Spears/Michael Jackson revival duet, replete with wardrobe malfunctions.
OK, it's late, and even I didn't need that imagery.
So spare yourself the imagery and keep them make options real out there, rokay?

Re:ahem.... are you sure?

[adric22 (413850)]

Couldn't you just reload Vista back on it, then take it in for repair? It isn't like they could tell the difference. But I do see your point, it is a matter of principle.

Re:ahem.... are you sure?

[shellbeach (610559)]

It was pre-installed, so maybe he can't. Most vendors seem to provide a ghost image of the factory HD, or the install CD itself, but maybe his didn't.

If his laptop didn't ship with Vista, then he can hardly be blamed for not having Vista installed, now, can he?

He should have an OEM CD, though, and can just wipe and re-install. I've had to do this when my current laptop had (hardware-related) problems, and it's pretty standard practice in the linux-laptop world. It sucks, but there's nothing you can do.

However, for anyone about to do this, do consider using something like Mondo to backup your PC (and don't forget to verify the backups!!) That way, restoring your system *after* repair is as easy as shoving the disc in and playing tetris for a few hours :)

Re:ahem.... are you sure?

[langelgjm (860756)]

Possible scenario: the sleep function didn't work under Linux, so he just left the lid closed with the laptop running. The excess heat, over the course of many (5) months, weakened the plastic case, causing it to crack. So actually, Linux is to blame.

I am completely serious. This is totally plausible.

Re:ahem.... are you sure?

[QuesarVII (904243)]

One could have just as easily turned the auto sleep off under windows and gotten the same result. I've set a few friend's Windows laptops that way because they hated it sleeping every time they were downloading something and closed the lid!

A laptop should still cool properly with the lid closed.

Re:ahem.... are you sure?

[rtb61 (674572)]

Only problem of course for that fanciful scenario, is heat would cause plastic deformation and not weaken the plastic to allow brittle fracture unlike of cause exposure to excessive sunlight. Now of course the heat might cause problems for the lcd transistor and I could pretty well guarantee, that dead transistors due to heat would occur well before exposure to heat would cause brittle weakness in plastic, not that exposure to heat does not cause some types plastic to become brittle but generally speaking that just about right before things go up in flames, or specifically the plastic used in laptop cases does go up in flames.

So I can only assume you are being completely serious in ignorance.

Being in the UK there is bound to be a consumer affairs department to which the complaint can be forwarded, for remedial action, I know of the ones for South Australia and for Australia. These government departments are very useful as they will handle any prosecution, so not only will your laptop likely be repaired, but other people in similar situation could also get legal rectification and very likely the retailer could get stuck with penalties well in excess of the cost of repairs.

The Linux installation definitely broke the laptop

[kawabago (551139)]

The laptop was designed to be unusable, that's why it had Vista installed. If you can't use it, it won't break. By installing an operating system that could make use of the hardware, you subjected the laptop to use it was not designed to take and voided the warranty. If you read the EULA closely you'll see that any computer with Vista installed is not actually intended to be used.

Re:ahem.... are you sure?

[Psychor (603391)]

It's not the manager's fault, he'd just heard that Linux users were all a bunch of crackers.

Re:ahem.... are you sure?

[MajinBlayze (942250)]

Those white boys shouldn't even be near computers

Re:ahem.... are you sure?

[daddymac (244954)]

Must've forgotten to

insmod dont_break_screen_hinge.ko

Common newbie mistake.

Re:ahem.... are you sure?

[AbbyNormal (216235)]

Virtual flying chairs caused the crack when it was switched to Linux.

Re:ahem.... are you sure?

[Trogre (513942)]

I like those Certified For Windows® Vista® stickers. I peel them off and stick them to the sides of rubbish bins about the place.

Re:ahem.... are you sure?

[archen (447353)]

Been doing that for so long that my trash is still certified for windows 98 :)

Re:ahem.... are you sure?

[srmalloy (263556)]

I like those Certified For Windows® Vista® stickers. I peel them off and stick them to the sides of rubbish bins about the place.

Right next to the Intel Inside stickers.

Re:ahem.... are you sure?

[soloha (545393)]

I just sent the companies customer service a department a link to this posting on Slashdot to remind them that word of mouth still means something, along with a statement that I would never buy from them. If anyone else has got two minutes to spare, do the same. If they get enough maybe it will help this guy out. What a load of crap...

Re:ahem.... are you sure?

[nick_davison (217681)]

You're making a fundamental mistake: Assuming anyone at PC World has the slightest clue what Slashdot is.

It's kind of like writing to McDonald's customer service department and telling them they are getting a bad reputation amongst the Michelin Guide people: they'll wonder what on earth tires have to do with anything.

You have far worse problems...

[RobertM1968 (951074)]

Hi, just so you know, your problems with getting your laptop repaired are probably worse than you envisioned.

Please, DONT take any of this personally against YOU... it isnt. It's just what you will experience and why...

Here's why your problems may be worse:

The manufacturer's warranties do not cover broken plastics or hinges. If *you* think it is a manufacturing defect, that is usually quite irrelevant to the manufacturer (who is the one who needs to approve the in-warranty repair - and will NOT send the hinges or plastics to the repair center). (See note at bottom)

Now, I am NOT disputing that this may be a manufacturing defect - I'm advising you (from years worth of experience) what additional problems you will run into.

IF your machine is NOT an HP or Compaq, you can remove the drive and bring it someplace else for repair - explaining to them that you dont want to risk your data being lost/drive being formatted (which the vendors often do), and NOT mention Linux at all.

IF your machine IS an HP or Compaq, then you can TRY that method, BUT, HP/Compaq require service centers do a FULL diagnostic of the machine for ANY warranty work - which presents a problem if the drive is not installed. Sometimes, you will find a sympathetic service center manager who will take the machine in anyway and fudge the diag results, and send the machine to HP/Compaq with a note saying that the service center has the drive and all diags passed.

I truly think your battle will be related to the fact that plastics and hinges are not covered under warranty though. The way to TRY to combat that issue is to have documented proof that others with the SAME model are also experiencing such problems (hinge issues rarely occur to just one machine... the batch off that same assembly line will show such problems). If you can find sufficient proof that others with the same model have the same problem, then the service center manager can fight the manufacturer to try to get the plastics and hinges (which are quite expensive).

When you bring the machine back in, please keep in mind that the decision to repair the hinges and plastics is NOT up to the Service Center Manager - he does not approve the parts shipment - or the shipment of your machine to the manufacturer - the MANUFACTURER does... so be patient, and don't go off on him because the manufacturer says no - and give him as much info as you can find to help him fight their decision - BECAUSE, their decision is NO (and told to the service center managers long before you ever brought your machine in), and that NO stands except in two cases... (1) a service center manager that you have not pissed off to the point he wont fight it and/or have helped give enough proof it IS a defect, and (2) a class action lawsuit (or threat thereof) that forces a manufacturer to take the blame for it.

Keep in mind, until #2 occurs, you and the manufacturer are bound by that warranty - which states no plastics, no hinges covered - UNLESS the manufacturer is convinced it is a defect - which they won't be just because you think it is (no matter how right you are).

Robert

Former Tech Manager
CompUSA

Re:ahem.... are you sure?

[Minwee (522556)]

But pretty gay of Acer to not even support their own software

Some day, somebody is going to have to explain to me just what being gay has to do with not supporting software.

Is this some flavour of "pride" that I just hadn't heard of before?

Re:ahem.... are you sure?

[Kris_J (10111)]

Didn't you know that homosexuals were incapable of writing good drivers? All they do is sit around reading women's magazines and matching their belt to their shoes.

All the best drivers are made by heterosexual cross-dressers. Post-op transsexuals are gods at compression utilities, while operating systems are best written by eunuchs.

Re:ahem.... are you sure?

[gv250 (897841)]

operating systems are best written by eunuchs

There was a time, before Windows, before Linux, when I had to explain to my dad what I did for a living. "I'm a UNIX wizard", says I. "A eunuch's what?" says he.

Re:ahem.... are you sure?

[by Anonymous Coward]

As a lawyer I would suggest next time you kick the manager squarely in the nuts and reply "Software did it".

Re:ahem.... are you sure?

[PixieDust (971386)]

Actually it isn't the retailer at all. It's the manufacturer. And it isn't just Linux. I installed Windows XP Pro after wiping XP Home off a new laptop, and HP immediately voided my warranty upon finding out. Again, hardware problem (which was common in the DV6045NR I had), but because I had "Upgraded my drivers to XP Pro" my warranty was void (don't EVEN get me started on the "knowledge" of HP's Tech Support). Luckily, I had a service plan from BBY on it, which did NOT provide for being void due to a change in software (it doesn't cover software problems, so they don't even consider software when determining if their service plan will fix something), and so now I have a nice shiny new laptop, and HP can suck it.

But don't blame the retailer (in spite of the suckage) because the manufacturer is the one that screwed you. The retailer just was unfortunate enough to be the messenger.

Re:Their website...

[RealityMogul (663835)]

Hey look, they have Wii's in stock!


You have much to learn about slashdotting young grasshopper

install windows

[Eugenia Loli (250395)]

re-install windows and go back to them (or another outlet). It's as easy as this.

Re:install windows

[Richard_J_N (631241)]

Or, just say "Sorry - my data is confidential, you can't have the hard disk".

Re:install windows

[by Anonymous Coward]

I recently took a Tablet PC purchased at CompUSA in for service (screen problems). I, of course, removed the hard drive for privacy concerns and they said it is corporate policy to not perform repairs without a hard drive. I asked for clarification and was told it just needed to be "a hard drive," not necessarily the original. So, I returned home, found an old, dead laptop HDD and drove a nail through it for good measure. Brought it in, they sent it away, and I got it back with a brand new HDD :)

Re:install windows

[Shadow-isoHunt (1014539)]

I do consulting work for a small electronics shop in Salt Lake City, and we do waranty/service center repairs. There was a Tablet PC that came to us from CompUSA about 2 months ago. It fit this description - and bugged the living hell out of us as to what could have possibly gone wrong with the drive to cause that. There were *no* tooling marks otherwise on the area... do you know what it's like to find a harddrive that EXPLODES on a head crash, man?

Well duh.

[by Anonymous Coward]

Everyones knows with Linux you've been bashing your laptops shell. Of course your hinge is messed up.

Gentoo?

[Nimey (114278)]

The poster must be leaving something out, like the big spoiler on the screen, neon lights, and the Type R sticker that he riced^Wmodded the laptop with.

Re:Gentoo?

[Minwee (522556)]

And speed holes. Those make the computer go faster.

The operating system does not matter

[unlametheweak (1102159)]

It shouldn't matter what operating system is installed. Many (most?) of the large retailers will tell you to expect your hard disk to be reformatted with a "Recovery Disk" when you send your computer in to be repaired. I doubt if they would even try to boot off a virgin customer disk do to liability and privacy issues. This is a case of warranties gone wrong and managers not having common sense to resolve issues outside (the warranty) box. My advice: take it up the chain of command, or threaten to sue them. That seems to get the ball rolling in my professional and personal experience.

kdawson Magnet Thread Here

[Nymz (905908)]

Can we please start keeping all posts regarding kdawson in a single thread? That way he won't overload the server, while using the search function to troll for his name.

<voice=Shatner>KKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKDAWSON!!!</voice>

Easy to fix

[joeflies (529536)]

#emerge display_hinge_2.0

In the US, your warranty would be valid

[mpoulton (689851)]

The Magnusson-Moss Warranty Act is a US federal consumer protection law setting requirements for consumer product warranties. One key provision of the act is that a warranty cannot be voided by the use of "unapproved" or "aftermarket" parts, or by modification, unless it can be proven that the damage or failure was caused by that action. The legal burden of proof is on the manufacturer to demonstrate that the customer's actions caused the problem. The intent of this law was to prevent manufacturers from locking customers into using only their own consumables and replacement parts -- a practice that was popular at the time, with products ranging from vacuum cleaners (generic-brand bags void warranty) to cars (OEM replacements parts only, or the whole warranty is void). Many companies will still try to dishonor a warranty if a product has been modified, but this is clearly illegal and case law has upheld the consumer's right to modify products and use "unapproved" accessories and replacements time after time. Long story short -- in the US, you shove the laptop where the sun don't shine and threaten to sue (the American Way). In the UK? I don't know.

Remove the HDD

[hopbine (618442)]

When I was fixing laptops - Compaq in this case - we had many laptops come in with no HDD (security reasons) In any case we would test them with our own drives with test S/W on them.

Sale of Goods Act 1979

[hoofie (201045)]

I reckon you have an open and shut case [if you will excuse the pun]. Write a letter to PC World [make it registered delivery so you know it was received] pointing out that the laptop has a MECHANICAL defect and you require it to be fixed. Be sure to include when and where you bought it, COPY of receipt, the managers response and a picture if you can of the damage. The fact that you have changed the operating system is of no consequence as its a mechanical hinge. Make it polite but also point out that PC World has a reponsibility under the Sale of Goods Act 1979 and they are in breach of that. If PC World say take it up with the manufacturer, ignore that, your sale contract is with PC World.

If PC World still refuse [and they probably will] then take them to the small claims court. As long as you have documentation, letters, dates and can prove that you have given them ample opportunity to resolve the matter there is a good chance the Judge will rule in your favour. Collecting your money after that can be a bit of a pain, but you will get it - they are not a 2bit operation after all.

See this link [dti.gov.uk] to the DTI, especially Q3 and Q10. Be polite but stick to your guns.

Management is right

[SlappyBastard (961143)]

You stuffed a damn penguin into the thing and you wonder why the hinge broke!?!?!

Lunix machine failure

[retired03 (741960)]

In the US, there is a common law that states any product must be fit for it's intended purpose and thus carries an implied warranty. I bought a computer from Fry's, 1 month store and 1 year manufacturer's warranty. It failed after 17 months. I asked them to fix it or replace it or give me my money back. They refused so I filed a claim in small claims court for all the costs involved. They called 30 minutes after the summons arrived and paid all costs. Fit for it's intended purpose means the product should last as long as any other like product - for computers that should be about 5 years.

This Calls For Thoroughly Childish Retaliation

[flyneye (84093)]

You could burn a bunch of live cds ,sneak in while the help is touching each others bottoms 'round back and reboot all their boxen to live cds .Shout "Fix that morons!" as you leave.
Check back later to see if they really figured it out.
(Remember kids,recycling old live distro disks is fun when the jokes on them.I like to recycle at *est *uy because they really go into convulsions)

I worked for Currys..

[Bhalash (797330)]

I worked for Currys for eight years, and that manager is talking rubbish. We as a company won't resolves issues that stem from you changing your operating system, but for an actual hardware fault your warranty is still good. Please contact me.

I installed on a different HDD

[gweihir (88907)]

For this and other reason I replaced the HDD in my laptop with another one before installing Linux. If it breaks I can swap HDDs again and avoid giving my personal data to the manufacturer and can avoid risking my installation at the same time. Sure, they will probably know I did swap disks, since the original one only has seome hours of sue time on it, but can they do anything about it? I doubt it very much.

Re:Seriously... wtf?

[Dr. Eggman (932300)]

They're not saying it caused it, they're just looking for an excuse not to pay to repair it. I make it clear to my retailers when I send my stuff in for repair, I'm not sending the hard drive in with it. Whenever I send it with the hard drive in, something bad happens like they wipe the thing.

It's happened to me before...

[ChePibe (882378)]

While working tech support for an elementary school, I encountered a G3 iMac that wouldn't boot properly and "sad mac-d". I was able to get the error codes and it showed bad motherboard. I called up Apple tech support, explained the situation and gave the phone tech the codes I'd received and mentioned the symptoms I'd noticed. I was then asked what software we were running. The school happened to have an older version of Microsoft works or some such (this was over 8 years ago, forgive me if I'm foggy on the details) and, humoring the phone support tech, I mentioned the software. I was promptly informed that Microsoft Works was clearly causing the computer not to boot, Apple didn't support it, and not to call again with this problem. Figuring I wouldn't get anywhere with this guy, I hung up, called again, explained the problem to the new tech and Apple had a man on site in 48 hours to replace the motherboard. Unsurprisingly, the computer with the new motherboard worked fine with the old version of works - just like the 100+ other iMacs on the campus.

I assume the tech was simply lazy and was looking for a way out. Had to be pretty lazy to not want to fill out a simple form. He also could've been extremely stupid. But in any case, it's not unheard of, even from a company supposedly known for customer service like Apple.

Re:File a complaint

[click2005 (921437)]

Unfortunately, DSG (the group that runs PC World) are the worst retailers here in the UK. Part of the reason is probably that their staff are too stupid to realise the OS makes no difference... they get their PC training off the back of a Cornflakes box.

They dont care about bad publicity that much because they drawf other retailers for electronics/PCs over here. Most people in the UK dont even realise that PC World, Dixons, Currys, Comet (and a few of the big mobile phone chains too) are all the same company.

You can try mentioning the Sales of Goods Act but I doubt it will help much. Their staff mostly works on comissions and are largely just walking salesmen that know nothing about what they sell unless its on the price/info little card next to the PC.

They threw me out of the local store once when I told someone about to buy some ram that they were charging 150% more than the PC shop 400 yards away.

Re:warranty document

[Petrushka (815171)]

They probably don't have a leg to stand on anyway. Unfair terms in a warranty are void under English law, and it's hard to see how a term in a warranty pertaining to software could have any fair bearing on design flaws.

To the OP: a good first stop is www.consumerdirect.gov.uk [consumerdirect.gov.uk], a site run by the Office of Fair Trading that offers advice to "consumers". Their advice is extremely vague, but you can contact them with the details of your situation. But an encouraging word from this page [consumerdirect.gov.uk]:

Exclusion clauses

Some traders might try to escape their responsibilities under contracts by using exclusion clauses, for instance by saying that they accept no liability for loss or damage. If an exclusion clause is unfair it is legally void and cannot be used against you.

Generally, only a court can decide if a contract term is unfair. But any exclusion of liability, whether in a contract term or on a notice, is always void if it is used for the purpose of evading liability for death or personal injury caused by negligence. Also, a trader selling goods cannot exclude liability for a breach of your statutory rights - for instance by displaying a sign saying: 'no refunds given.' An attempt to do this is an offence.

Similar statements about services - for example: 'no responsibility for loss or damage to garments, however caused' on the back of a dry cleaning ticket - are not illegal. But such terms are not enforceable if a court finds them unfair.

There's another line saying they have "more information about Unfair terms in contracts", but the link doesn't work. Like I said, it's vague. I could wish for your sake that UK law had something half as useful as exists in my country. Cold comfort, I fear.

Re:UK consumer protection laws

[Anonymous Brave Guy (457657)]

In the UK, new goods sold from a shop to a private customer must be fit for purpose. This is a statutory obligation, and the related consumer rights cannot be waived regardless of anything the shop says. Those rights derive primarily from the Sale of Goods Act. The law provides for various replace/refund possibilities, depending on what is reasonable given the nature of the problem and how long it has been since the item was bought.

Protection can last for several years if this is the normal expected lifespan of the item purchased, but the law isn't stupid: you probably aren't entitled to a full refund if your device that should last at least six years fails after only five, for example, though you might find you're entitled to a contribution towards repair or replacement.

For recently purchased items, shops might like to offer you gift vouchers or something rather than a refund, but they'll be out of luck if they try to make it stick and you fight them. Most managers know this, and will back down when confronted. They know they will likely lose a case in the small claims court, and incur costs (we have a loser pays legal system) and damage to their store's reputation as well as having to pay up in the end anyway.

There are additional legal remedies connected with various specific circumstances, such as the Distance Selling Regulations, but these don't seem to apply in this case.

If I were the guy who'd been screwed here, I would first return to the shop, ask politely to speak to the manager, inform him that I didn't find his staff's behaviour reasonable, and ask for what I believed that I was reasonably entitled to under the consumer protection legislation. If that didn't work, I'd consult my local Trading Standards folks, who are generally knowledgeable, helpful, quick to answer questions and on the consumer's side. Then I'd probably do whatever they suggested was best in the circumstances, which might mean anything from sending a registered letter of complaint to the business's head office to filing against them in the small claims court (which can actually be done on-line quite efficiently these days).

Insert standard disclaimers here: I'm not a lawyer, this isn't legal advice, and if you follow any advice you find on Slashdot without checking it for yourself then you deserve whatever comes of it. If you want real legal advice, speak to a lawyer, or at least your local Trading Standards, Citizens Advice Bureau or similar reputable organisation.

Re:sigh

[ari_j (90255)]

"Ask Slashdot" (the correct section) article asking for legal advice? Check.

Stop asking Slashdot and start talking to lawyers when you have this kind of problem and think that your "statutory rights" have been violated. Slashdot is almost guaranteed to be the worst place to get advice on anything other than technology and technology careers. Up next: "Ask Slashdot: My left labium is swollen, do I have the clap?"

Re:sigh

[catbutt (469582)]

I assume you must be a lawyer. A couple hours of a lawyer's time costs more than a brand new laptop.

I see no reason why normal people can't give each other advice that has to do with legal issues, even if the advice sometimes turns out to be "talk to a lawyer" (which, in this case, I think is an option, but certainly not a requirement). You really think every consumer complaint has to be handled by a "professional"?

For that matter, what if I have a squeaky door, can I just ask my handy friend for advice or do I have to hire a certified carpenter? Is there something so special about legal issues that a regular person can't do anything whatsoever, even on the simplest situaton, on their own?

Your attitude tends to either come from 1) people who want to keep everyone in the dark so as to protect their revenue stream or 2) gullible people who are fooled by people in category 1.