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Microsoft's New Permissive License Meets Opposition
Posted by
ScuttleMonkey
on Sat Aug 18, 2007 01:38 PM
from the many-years-of-animosity dept.
from the many-years-of-animosity dept.
seven7h writes "Linux.com currently has an interesting story regarding Microsoft's new Permissive License, which they are currently trying to get certified by the OSI (Open Source Initiative). What I find interesting is not just that this has received a lot of criticism and opposition, but that one of the key opponents is Chris DiBona, open source programs manager for Google, Inc. Microsoft's strategies of creating open source like programs (ie Shared Source) has been called into question and whether the open source industry should become associated with Microsoft. This looks like it may be something to watch as it could allow Microsoft a foot in the door into Linux/Open Source, or define a line between Linux/Open Source and Microsoft."
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Microsoft already has a foot in the door to Linux (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Microsoft already has a foot in the door to Lin (Score:3, Informative)
The GPL is not the only open source license out there and each license type offers particular limitations and freedoms. One of the best know alternatives is the BSD license which allows people to publish source code, but from what I can tell the main requirement is to keep the license and have attribution.
If we are talking the Linux Kernel then we are indeed talking GPL, but Microsoft is free to license their code as they see fit. As long as looking at the source code do
Re:Microsoft already has a foot in the door to Lin (Score:5, Insightful)
Now, if you look at the license, it is indeed an open source license, and it can be used in conjunction with the BSD, Apache,or MIT licenses, but not the GPL. Thus, Microsoft creates this license, releases sufficient open source code to make people think twice about using the GPL (extend), and then once the GPL is dead, leaves the open source world (extinguish).
This is a very clever move, aimed at dividing the open source camp from the GPL camp. Currently they are divided in ideology but largely united in practice (as RMS says). Microsoft is aiming to divide them in practice as well. Personally I don't think Microsoft is willing to release enough code open sourced to make a difference, but time will tell. The next few years will be very interesting.
Parent
This is where the OSI fails. (Score:4, Insightful)
The OSI doesn't even correctly track the licenses that it has "approved" already.
http://www.opensource.org/licenses/category [opensource.org]
How about a diagram showing the progression of license restrictions? Hmmmmmm? That way you could look at the chart and SEE where a specific license falls.
It would also show any holes that are not covered by a license yet.
Then it would be easy to draw a line and say "anything below this line is GPLv2 compatible". Or GPLv3 or whatever.
Instead we have licenses that effectively duplicate each other. And we argue over whether Microsoft's proposed licenses are "okay" or not. Instead we should be able to look at the proposed license and see exactly where in the matrix it falls and whether it is filling an existing void. Or simply duplicating an existing license's restrictions and grants.
Where's the structure?
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Re: (Score:3, Informative)
This seems like a nice idea, but there are too many dimensions of variability for a simple one-dimensional line like you're talking about.
Perhaps a tick-mark table like one of those market-speak product feature comparisons might work better. It would be good to have licenses categorized in some way.
I think it is a very reasonable thing to require that any Open Source license submitted by Microsoft allow the code they release under it to be distributed in conjunction with GPL code. Microsoft should not b
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I think it is a very reasonable thing to require that any Open Source license submitted by Microsoft allow the code they release under it to be distributed in conjunction with GPL code.
Why? The OSI and FSF have approved a number of licenses that are incompatible with the GPL, including (off the top of my head) Apache 2, CDDL and MPL. More accurately, the GPL is incompatible with these, since it requires that all code in a project have the restrictions imposed by the GPL, but no others. You can mix APSL and CDDL code in the same project, for example, but you can't mix either with the GPL.
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No license but the GPL can be used in conjunction with the GPL. Heck, not even different versions of the GPL can be used with the GPL!
There are some "compatible" licenses, but that's merely a euphemism for relicensing. If a license allows to to relicense the software under the GPL, then it is compatible. If the MIT license, for example, said that you couldn't file off the license, then it would no longer be GPL. The GPL is a members only club.
Re:Microsoft already has a foot in the door to Lin (Score:4, Interesting)
That's not really accurate. What the GPL says is that the whole work must be distributable under the terms of the GPL. Neither the MIT, BSD or any other license I know lets you "file off the license", in fact it very clearly says The above copyright notice and this permission notice shall be included in all copies or substantial portions of the Software. [opensource.org] It is simply that the MIT license is very permissive and lets you distribute it in a way that gives you all the rights of the GPL.
Think of it this way, you're building a house and the BSD parts say you can use them in any building. The GPL parts say the whole house must be blue. Is that ok? Yes, because you can simultaniously fulfill the conditions of both licenses by building a blue house. You can't paint the BSD parts red anymore, but the BSD parts are still BSD parts. It is illegal (criminal offense) to replace a BSD license text with a GPL license text, unless you're the copyright holder. But as part of a house, the house needs to follow the rules of all the parts.
Of course the kicker is that the GPL says you can't add no more restrictions (good or bad), so you can put MIT code in GPL projects, but you can't put GPL code in anything but GPL projects. But that they can be distributed under the terms of the GPL is substantially different from them being relicensed to be GPL code.
Parent
Re:Microsoft already has a foot in the door to Lin (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, you know what they say - a dozen times bitten, thirteen times shy. They've resorted to underhand methods so many times in the past, it's only rational to expect any action like this to be "a trap".
Parent
Re:Microsoft already has a foot in the door to Lin (Score:5, Funny)
Well, when the guy with the hammer keeps hitting you in the head instead of fixing the hole in the roof, the next time he shows up you start thinking about calling the cops, even if this time he's carrying some nice roofing tiles.
Parent
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
any time Microsoft even tries to do anything even reasonably associated with open source, the OSS community shits itself and starts with all the Admiral Ackbar "it's a trap" crap. They don't even get a chance.
Yes because as everybody knows, if there's one thing that can stop a multi-billion-dollar corporation in it's tracks, it's a bunch of whiny geeks!
I mean, how on earth can a company with $7B to spend on research hope to accomplish anything when anonymous people on message boards start criticizing them?!?!
Got a clue for you: if MS *REALLY* wanted to play nice with the OSS community, they would. Yes, there would be complaints and verbal attacks, but eventually the community would accept them.
Just remember -
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Considering that the OSS community, almost by definition, actually is just a bunch of whiny geeks...
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Actually, most of the flack IBM caught was for being stuffy corporate drones - all the straight faced guys in perfectly pressed black suits, white shirts, and black ties. They were generally considered to be more laughable than nasty - the big, slow, heavy dinosuar in the world of fast, sleek mammals.
Completely different creature.
AT&T was the evil one in the view of most of the people in the tech community. Remeber that t
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And ... ? (Score:5, Insightful)
Microsoft says that Linux "violates" how many Microsoft patents?
Microsoft paid how much money to SCO for a license Microsoft doesn't appear to use?
Microsoft arranged for Baystar to invest how much money in SCO?
And the list goes on and on and on.
Microsoft can, at any time, download the source code for almost EVERYTHING in "Linux". And they can write whatever apps they want that "interoperates" with whatever in "Linux". And they can release it under whatever license they want.
But we aren't seeing that, are we? And the reason is that Microsoft's goal is to find some way to cripple Linux as a competitor. That's it. That's all it is.
So we should be wary of any and all "changes" that Microsoft wants. Keep the distinct and separate from Linux.
Parent
Re:Microsoft already has a foot in the door to Lin (Score:4, Funny)
Parent
Why is it interesting? (Score:4, Funny)
I mean, those aren't exactly love seats being thrown out of Microsoft's office windows.
Better wording maybe? (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Better wording maybe? (Score:4, Funny)
Parent
Re:Better wording maybe? (Score:4, Funny)
Parent
My opinion (Score:2, Insightful)
Section 3
Part A.
I wouldn't add this clause, but I have no problem with it, I just think that it is redundant.
Some may argue that MS is just being explicit to protect their asses, and we'll get back to that later.
Part B.
FUD possibility: The patent clause only covers contributors, it doesn't include users. The community has every right to reject this license if it is handling
MS really trying to get involved with OS (Score:4, Interesting)
Historically, Microsoft has often had alternative (often dishonest), motives for initiatives they put forward. Usually these revolve around dividing and conquering markets. The most likely ulterior motive here is to divide the OS community by carving off the GPL and FSF people (the only license the MS-PL would not play well with), and to maginalise individuals like Richard Stallman in particular.
I predict that if the MS-PL license is accepted and MS becomes part of the OS community, from that day forward the general understanding in the press/media will be that there are two different camps of open source. "Serious" (business-related) open source, and "Flaky" (left-wing FSF open source). The very fact that the second group is open about the ideological basis of their movement will work against them as it does in the political realm as well. Both camps are actually just as ideologically based as each other, but only the FSF is up front about it.
While this over-simplification of the field into two camps may be spurious, Microsoft is driving public perception here as they always do. All those folks that have never really thought seriously about open source at all will suddenly "discover" it because MS is into it, and their perception of the playing field will be defined by Microsoft's participation and seen through the Microsoft "lens" on open source.
I would expect all the major tech media outlets, especially the mainstream/popular ones, to jump right on this interpretation, in the same way as they jump on all Microsoft pronouncements. I also can't think of a single reason why any of MS's Enterprise customers or any large corporation for that matter would not also be happy in that camp. Even great open source supporters like IBM would probably much rather prefer it if the FSF were "just a bunch of kooky hippies" that no one had to worry about anymore. This kind of perception could be hugely popular, and not just with Microsofties.
As a long time left-wing kookie hippy I am not in favour of this, but I can certainly see how wildly popular this could be to large chunks of the open source community. This is classic Microsoft divide and conquer stuff and I can't see any reason why it won't work like a charm.
Parent
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Then again, I take issue with your last statement in some ways, because my spider sense is tingling with this
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TFA says it all (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:TFA says it all (Score:5, Insightful)
It's an effort to split the open-source community into two camps, one around the GPL and "ideology," and another around the BSD and MS licenses and "pragmatism." In time, Microsoft can just grab all the code from the BSD and MS license camps, incorporate it into its own products, break compatibility, and walk away from the whole thing. At the very least they get a lot of work done for free, at the most, they've killed the GPL, which is open-source's main weapon against proprietization.
Parent
GPL prevents exploitation of programmers (Score:3, Informative)
Well said!
IMO, the m
Re:TFA says it all (Score:5, Insightful)
They have released the MS-PL and MS-LPL, with names purposefully similar to the GPL and LGPL.
The MS-PL is mostly okay, but the MS-LPL says the software can only run on MS Windows.
I see this as an attempt to confuse the situation and muddle up the name space.
Parent
Is it any wonder people are suspicious. (Score:3, Insightful)
That said, if Microsoft were to release code under an OSI approved license, it would be foolish to choose not to use it on ideological grounds alone.
Forget revolution, insurrection is where it's at. The more open code the better.
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If OSI is to retain credibility, it must approve (Score:5, Interesting)
They have no choice but to approve it, unless they want to lose credibility, and change "Open Source" to mean "whatever they happen to like", rather than "a license that meets this specified list of objective criteria".
All of the objections raises are very pointless. For example, there was the objection to how it does not get along with some other licenses. Hello! The same thing applies to many of the already-approved licenses. The objections from the Google guy are even worse--they don't seem to have anything whatsoever to do with the stated purpose of OSI. He's just using the mailing list as a soapbox.
Re:If OSI is to retain credibility, it must approv (Score:3, Interesting)
Sure they do. The OSI could reject a license fundamentally identical to another license simply on the grounds that license proliferation is a bad thing.
Nonsense! Re:If OSI is to retain credibility,... (Score:2)
OTOH, I must also admit that I am suspicious of this license in particular *BECAUSE* it comes from MS. MS is a company with a history, and not one that would cause one to wish to associate with them. This could, possibly, be as open as it superficially appears. But it could be
Re:If OSI is to retain credibility, it must approv (Score:3, Interesting)
The license meets every criteria for "Open Source" that OSI has published, and MS is following all the published procedures for approval.
They have no choice but to approve it, unless they want to lose credibility, and change "Open Source" to mean "whatever they happen to like", rather than "a license that meets this specified list of objective criteria".
I agree in general though I would state there are instances where a license could meet every criteria but still hurt Open Source in general, I feel that's part of the reason that we have a credible organization like the OSI to give approval.
All of the objections raises are very pointless. For example, there was the objection to how it does not get along with some other licenses. Hello! The same thing applies to many of the already-approved licenses. The objections from the Google guy are even worse--they don't seem to have anything whatsoever to do with the stated purpose of OSI. He's just using the mailing list as a soapbox.
He does seem fairly biased but I do think some of his objections have merit. For instance the term "Shared Source" can cause confusion, if Microsoft does get approval it's possible that they may start taking about their "Shared Source" licenses, and mention this partic
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
You're showing your ignorance. MS has 5 shared source licenses.
MS-PL, MS-CL, MS-LSL, MS-LCL, MS-RL. You're referring to the MS-LPL and MS-LCL, which are not on the table for OSI approval. Only MS-PL and MS-CL are at issue.
What others are finding at fault... (Score:3, Informative)
Have To Defend MS Here (Score:3, Insightful)
Besides, I think it creates all the wrong incentives when we give MS shit for improving its relation with open source. Admittedly maybe I'm a bit influenced here by this post [tirania.org] by Miguel de Icaza's blog but I do get the sense that MS is being treated worse just because they are MS. Of course it's only natural for people in the open source community to want to get back at MS when they can given how MS is treating them but in the long run I think giving them grief over their attempts to open source stuff just contributes to the perception in MS that open source software is a fanatical rabid anti-capitalist movement not reasonable people making software they can work with and make compromises to.
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Also I agree that there are genuine issues with the MS license that make it problematic to use. I fully support attempts by the OSI to work with MS on these issues but these problems don't mean it isn't an open source license, only that it could be a better licences. Naturally I hope MS can be persuaded to change the terms b
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Don't quote me, but if I remember well, I think I read a post from Scott Guthrie (one of the main guys in the
Why the concern? (Score:2)
Just look at what Microsoft did for Java!
Bill Hilf caught in a lie! (Score:3, Interesting)
.
Based on what was said by Bill Hilf, a project covered under MS-CL or MS-PL should be referred in Microsoft marketing as a "Shared Source" application. But with the Sharedpoint Learning Kit, covered by the MS-CL [2], the term used by Microsoft is "open source application." [3] Independent of approval by the OSI, Microsoft has already pre-approved it's use of "Shared Source" and "open source" as interchangeable terms in a way that appears to be an attempt to purposely confuse. This could even be seen as a method to disrupt the moment that the previous open source terminology had gain in the popular press. Regardless of the intention, Microsoft's use of SS and OS as interchangeable terms is not consistent with Bill Hilf's claim.
.
So, this leads back to DiBona's question which is still left without a reasonable answer. Will Microsoft stop using the marketing term Shared Source as a method to confuse? If Microsoft is serious about working with the OSI, why is SS already used as an interchangeable term before the OSI has even approved the licenses?
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[1] http://www.crynwr.com/cgi-bin/ezmlm-cgi?3:mss:133
[2] http://www.codeplex.com/SLK/Project/License.aspx [codeplex.com]
[3] http://www.microsoft.com/opensource/choice.mspx [microsoft.com]
Not much opposition other than DiBona (Score:3, Interesting)
From reading the OSI discussion list [nabble.com], DiBona is virtually the ONLY person raising criticism and opposition. This summary is widely innacurate.
Consider the facts (Score:3, Insightful)
Microsoft has a long history of anti-competitive behavior - look at how they've dealt with Stacker, Lotus, Netscape, DR-DOS - the list goes on and on. This is their history, and provides a good indication of their future behavior.
Now they're trying to make nice, put on the "open source" show and offer to interoperate with Linux? They're going to lay down their knives and cuddle up to the biggest threat to their continued domination?
Anyone that believes that Microsoft is sincere in their offer to open source their code - or work along with Linux - is (pardon me for being so blunt, but) a deluded fool. They'll prevaricate and make false offers as they try to find a chink in the armor - then they'll move in for the kill. Remember, they offered deals to Stack, Netscape, etc, etc. and every time it ended up badly for their "partners". Why believe that this time will be different? They're just trying to use the OSI rules against open source - will stupidity allow the MS camel to insert its nose into the open source tent?
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Mods on crack again (Score:2)
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Re:Dog food (Score:4, Interesting)
Of course, the MS-LPL is one of the worst licenses you can get (It can only run on MS Windows etc). They will purposefully confuse people with the distinction.
Parent
Re:Dog food (Score:4, Insightful)
I cant think of a more reasonably way to do that than what they've done. The MS-PL and MS-LPL are identical (to my quick read at least), except the MS-LPL restricts it to the Windows platform. Again, their code, their right. Would you like someone trying to tell you what kind of license you can release code you create under?
And to say that MS-PL and MS-LPL are 'purposefully similar' in name to GPL and LGPL is just being either disingenuous or ignorant of the facts.
Let's look at some of the more popular, well known licenses supported by OSI, and how similar they are to the GPL and LGPL:
From Open Source Licenses by Category [opensource.org]:
GPL
LGPL
MPL - Mozilla Public License
CDDL - Common Development and Distribution License
CPL - Common Public License
EPL - Eclipse Public License
ECL - Educational Community License
APL - Adaptive Public License
OSL - Open Software License
QPL - Qt Public License
LPL - Lucent Public License
Now lets look at the MS licenses [microsoft.com]:
MS-PL
MS-LPL
MS-CL
MS-LCL
MS-RL
And you know what? Either phonetically, visually, or statistically (length, similarity of characters in similar positions, etc), the MS license abbreviations deviate farther from GPL and LGPL than do the other open source licenses supported by OSI.
The MS- in the front of each really distinguishes them. Maybe twitter would like to chime and and suggest that they should all be M$-.
About the only similarities are:
They all end with 'L'. But this is true for pretty much every license at OSI, so nothing unusual there.
One of MS's licenses ends with PL. So do a great number of other licenses at OSI, nothing unusual there.
MS has adopted a modifier pattern to their licenses to make some of them 'Limited'. MS-PL and MS-LPL, MS-CL and MS-LCL for example. This is similar in style to what FSF has done with GPL and LGPL, though its arguable that the 'Limited' has a nearly opposite meaning of what the 'Lesser' in LGPL has.
So in short, when looking at the license abbreviations, compared to the population of other OSI supported licenses, we see that the MS licenses vary far more from the GPL/LGPL than other OSI supported licenses do.
Based on this, it appears that, quite the opposite of your claim, MS went out of their way to make their license abbreviations easily distinguishable from the GPL and LGPL.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Given that nobody was saying it wasn't their right, and nobody has suggested that the government should force them not to, I'm just going to write you off as a troll.