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ODF Vs. OOXML File Counts On the Web

Posted by kdawson on Fri Aug 17, 2007 01:54 PM
from the numbers-not-lying dept.
mrcgran writes "In eight months since Office 2007 was released to the general public (10 months since release to enterprise customers), there are fewer than 2,000 of these office documents posted on the Web. In the last three months, 13,400 more ODF documents have been added to the Web, with only 1,329 OOXML documents added. It would be hard for the Microsoft camp to spin ten times as many ODF documents added as OOXML documents, especially since 34% of those new documents were added on Microsoft.com. That isn't what I would call good traction for Microsoft's overwhelmingly dominant office suite."
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  • by Shados (741919) on Friday August 17 2007, @01:58PM (#20265833)
    Thats the main issue. I have Office 2007, and had it for a while. I almost always save in normal DOC for people still using Office 2003...
    • by hairpinred (1142257) on Friday August 17 2007, @02:12PM (#20266071)
      I personally have found that when trying to open old DOC format files that OpenOffice.org does a much better job than the latest version of Word does.

      Especially if you have any legacy Word 1.0 or 2.0 documents that can't be upgraded to the latest format for contractual reasons - Office 2007 will not open those files correctly, and those files are officially unsupported by Microsoft.

      I'm surprised that more people don't just use .ODF, it's a published, open standard that is as trivial to write a parser for as it is to just unzip the file and look at the XML directly...
      • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

        Especially if you have any legacy Word 1.0 or 2.0 documents that can't be upgraded to the latest format for contractual reasons

        Offtopic, but I'm just too curious... Would it be possible to explain why these can't be migrated to a newer format? I'd think that'd be dangerously unwise.

        I'm surprised that more people don't just use .ODF, it's a published, open standard that is as trivial to write a parser for as it is to just unzip the file and look at the XML directly...

        Cause we all know how much a success th
        • by phoenixwade (997892) on Friday August 17 2007, @04:05PM (#20267819) Homepage

          Especially if you have any legacy Word 1.0 or 2.0 documents that can't be upgraded to the latest format for contractual reasons
          Offtopic, but I'm just too curious... Would it be possible to explain why these can't be migrated to a newer format? I'd think that'd be dangerously unwise.
          I'm not sure of the parent poster, but we have some electronic documents that are archived from 10 years ago that can't be updated and then re-archived, they must match the printed documents that they produced. We can, and do, convert to a new(er) format when updating a document to be submitted and published now, and to allow those documents to be searched, but the ability to open documents from years ago is critical for one of our customers. We got the job because we were willing to dedicate a system to retrieve those documents in the original format.

          My recommendation was to handle those archives very differently. This client has a decision maker who knows what he wants, and dictates that it is either done that way, or he'll find someone else to do it. So we do it that way, and every year, I make a case for becoming more current, and every year, the answer is no. I don't mind, though, he's paying for the service, and other than this little bit of fear, he's really easy to work with, I've certainly had far more progressive clients that were far more of a PITA.
    • by Bluesman (104513) on Friday August 17 2007, @02:18PM (#20266173) Homepage
      I think this is exactly right, and one of the most interesting aspects of Microsoft's business.

      Their whole business is dependent on being the popular standard. But by definition, a standard can't be a moving target, so it has to change very slowly or people will stick with "the old version that everyone has."

      This puts Microsoft between a rock and a hard place, since they'll lose the market if they make too drastic a change, and they'll also lose the market if they don't change at all, and allow other implementations to catch up.

      It's a high-wire balancing act, and while they're very good at it, they're going to slip eventually.

      All of you people worried about Microsoft as a monopoly are freaking out over nothing. In the long term, what they're doing with Windows and Office is not sustainable.
      • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

        Of course it's about "standards". Even Microsoft "standards". I've had two professional associations I belong to say that they won't accept anything in WTF the 2007 format is. This is for the benefit of both the office staff and also the referees. I'm still running 2000. That's what the ACM (you know, the computer people) require. The IEEE recommends 2000 but will also accept 2003. The ISSA hasn't taken an official stand, yet. But everything coming out of them is 2000.
      • All of you people worried about Microsoft as a monopoly are freaking out over nothing. In the long term, what they're doing with Windows and Office is not sustainable.

        People have been saying things like that for years. It hasn't come to pass yet. What may not be sustainable for other companies, Microsoft can pull off due to their political and financial clout. They damn near succeeded in getting OOXML fasttracked due to their financial clout with their partners. They will come up with many many ways to fight off what you seem to think is inevitable.

      • Well it's been 12 years since Windows 95 and Office 95 and I don't see either of those cash cows slipping in the slightest. In the meantime Microsoft remains in the way of the proper innovation that competition in that space would provide.
      • It's a high-wire balancing act, and while they're very good at it, they're going to slip eventually.

        They don't necessarily have to slip. They just have to make a better, more intuitive, easy to use word processor. I can name quite a few things that are wrong with Word 2003 and OpenOffice. But I guess you can too :)
        • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

          They just have to make a better, more intuitive, easy to use word processor.

          MOOXML isn't about competing with other office suites. It's about preventing competition from thousands of specialised document creation tools.

          If ODF becomes ubiquitous, it will be easy for specialised tools to create documents which can then be opened/parsed by the office suite or by other tools (ie databases, document managers, aggregators etc) in the chain. Instead of having a few easy targets to embrace, extend..., Microsoft

    • See here [microsoft.com] and you can save as Office 2007 formats for old Office versions (as long as they have this pack). I also noticed MS keep them updated through Office Update and I still use Office 2000 SP3.
    • And that's the crucial thing, at least at the moment. A whole helluva lot of businesses are holding off on Office 2007, so that even those folks that do upgrade are setting Office to save in the older format to guarantee compatibility. Any advantages to the OOXML file format (and quite frankly, from an operational point of view, I don't think there are) are meaningless if everyone is still saving their documents and spreadsheets in the 2000/XP/2003 format.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 17 2007, @02:00PM (#20265847)
    Most of what I and the various people and businesses I've known use this sort of document format for, is the sort of thing that should never in a million years be put out on the web in the first place. If you can count what formats are clogging up large intranets, meybe you've got a clearer picture.
    • It is very relevant if you're looking at what people use for interchange of public records, which is a significant aspect of the standards battle.
    • You're right. This [googlefight.com] is more reliable.
  • Yeah, but (Score:5, Insightful)

    by everphilski (877346) on Friday August 17 2007, @02:01PM (#20265869) Journal
    what about the number of .doc files generated in the same timeframe? :)
    • Is this proof that nobody really cares about an open document format?

      How does it benefit most people? Not at all. Everybody can already read the MS docs they create since everybody already has MS Office.
    • It seems logical that ODF would be used more since it's the non-widely-used (read non-MS Office) software that implements that format. These people must convert to something for others to be able to read it (usually either MS Office format or ODF). MS Office users don't need to convert their docs to anything. Almost everybody can already read Word or Excel documents.
    • Old word formats are still a poor way to share documents and are probably outnumbered by pdf.

      The new formats are supposed to address these problems and deliver a fundamental promise of electronic editing: seemless collaboration. The M$ format is really more of the same old M$ only, version dependent stuff M$ has always served. Because it offers no real improvement, it's adoption will have to be forced. ODF, on the other hand, offers a choice of editors and OS, and is being used by people. Free and ope

    • doc files are the last generation. Nobody cares how many DVDs are being sold when looking towards the future, they're looking at the next generation Blue-ray and HDDVD sales. Likewise, nobody cares about doc files. The important question for our future is OOXML vs ODF.
      • There is a stark difference. There is a great capacity increase between Blue-Ray, HDDVD and DVD. What is the driving force behing yet another office format? The existing one works just fine. Upgrading media is a no brainer because we have hit the limits. We haven't hit the limits of an office format, yet.
  • Anything shared for public consumption would use the more compatible .doc
  • ....committee but rather by popular use.....

    ODF is apparently 10 times more a standard than OOXML.

    And I bet its all because its easier to spell.
    • Re: (Score:3, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward
      And I bet its all because its easier to spell.

      I tried open office once and it was buggy and crashed a lot. So why should I use the Open Office XML format, when I can use the trusted Office Document Format?
    • Good reasons why Open XML is suboptimal can be found on
      http://www.noooxml.org/ [noooxml.org]
      the website you won't find on wikipedia thank to their astroturf editors.

      Open XML is broken XML. And the patent licensing conditions look like a minefield.

      Microsoft should adopt OpenDocument.
  • And...so? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by DragonWriter (970822) on Friday August 17 2007, @02:04PM (#20265933)

    In eight months since Office 2007 was released to the general public (10 months since release to enterprise customers), there are fewer than 2,000 of these office documents posted on the Web.


    Probably because most people creating documents with Office 2007 for the web are either:
    1) Converting them to PDF or XPS if they aren't meant to be edited, or
    2) Converting them to Office 97-2003 format if they are meant to be edited, since the majority of the Microsoft Office-using audience will be using older versions of the office suite.

    I don't think counting documents on the web is particularly a useful way to try to measure the dominance of office suites or their associated file formats. Its, perhaps, an easy measure, but not a meaningful one.
    • I don't think counting documents on the web is particularly a useful way to try to measure the dominance of office suites or their associated file formats. Its, perhaps, an easy measure, but not a meaningful one.

      Agreed, but only if you're a rational sort.

      I'm reminded of my head exploding some years ago when I read about Bill Gates' disappointment at learning that of all the rich and varied content available on the web, so little of it was offered in .doc file format.

      My head has exploded many times since the
    • I don't think counting documents on the web is particularly a useful way to try to measure the dominance of office suites or their associated file formats.
      It's measuring the usage of a particular standard. It's pretty clear that nobody uses OOXML, anyone using MS Office simply continues to use DOC.

       
      • Yes. But open xml has special features. It prevents a switch to a real XML format. http://www.noooxml.org/petition [noooxml.org]
      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        It's measuring the usage of a particular standard.

        No, its not. It's measure the usage of a particular standard for interchange on the portion of the web indexed by Google. It doesn't measure what's used for interchange by different paths than the web, by log-in based sites on the web, or what is used for non-interchange (i.e., archive) use.

        Since one of the main motives for choosing a standardized format for office documents is future-proof archiving of internal documents, and since it doesn't measure that u

    • So what you are saying is that OOXML has such poor support that people who use it feel compelled to save it in a more universal forma, while ODF is sufficiently universal that people feel comfortable posting it as is.

      In any case, your first point, that people save in PDF, is of no real issue. First, the study, as flawed as it may be, is meant to indicate formats that are universal enough to be predictably exchanged. Second, the same argument applies to ODF, only more so. I, for instance, seldom post in

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        So what you are saying is that OOXML has such poor support that people who use it feel compelled to save it in a more universal forma, while ODF is sufficiently universal that people feel comfortable posting it as is.

        No, what I'm saying is that people using Office 2007 to post documents on the Web (hardly its primary use) are usually targetting an audience where Office 97-2003 is a more useful interchange format (since lots of people have older versions of Office), while people posting ODF documents on the

  • Bad metric (Score:4, Insightful)

    by BuR4N (512430) on Friday August 17 2007, @02:06PM (#20265959) Homepage Journal
    "That isn't what I would call good traction for Microsoft's overwhelmingly dominant office suite"

    Its a worthless metric, how many OOXML have been stored in various internal Sharepoint servers around the world ?

  • Another question is, what the market share of office 2007 vs an ODF compliant suite? If there's 10 million people with ODF capabilities, and only 1 million with OOXML, doesn't this make sense?

    The question is not how many now, but it's how many will there be 5 years from now.
  • Buffoons... (Score:2, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    In 12 minutes since this post was released 100% have called this a stupid piece of trash. That is hard to put a spin on.

    ***captcha is buffoons***
  • Bollocks (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 17 2007, @02:10PM (#20266035)
    Why exactly is this tagged "linux"? As though magically all thing FOSS revolve around Linux? Because there being more ODF docs out there, is suddenly a win for Linux, instead of a win for Open Office and FOSS in general?

    "That isn't what I would call good traction for Microsoft's overwhelmingly dominant office suite."

    The fact that it is an "overwhelmingly dominant office suite" is traction enough. Compare how many users are using any other suite, to the amount running Office. And filecount means something now? By this logic, should be now abandon Ogg Vorbis, FLAC and other audio formats because the number of .mp3s out there completely overshadows them? Should be dismiss Linux and OS X as insignificant sheerly on the basis that there are astronomically more Windows boxen out there? But wait, this is different somehow (because the OSS variant has the numerical advantage) less asinine than, oh, I don't know, basing security on the number of known vulnerabilities that we here on Slashdot love to complain about, isn't it?

    And this whole "t would be hard for the Microsoft camp to spin ten times as many ODF documents added as OOXML documents" continually searching for, and boasting any little flaw or inconsistency or what-have-you, no matter how insignificant is really both absurd and childish.
     
  • Office 2007 users don't like posting documents on the interweb.
  • Meanwhile... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Vellmont (569020) on Friday August 17 2007, @02:23PM (#20266239)
    The REAL document format, PDF has millions of documents on the web.

    Do I really care what format people pass around documents they intend to edit, as long as they publish them in what's become the standard format for end-users, i.e. pdf?

    The problem, as I see it is people are using ODF/.doc/Microsoft-whatever to often for documents that are really supposed to be just electronically published documents. I.e, not intended to be editied (though obviously you can with the right software).

      • The real problem is that there is still a difference. You should be able to edit documents with ease.

        Honestly, why? I don't care about editing documents, and honestly it's not really something with a great need. If you _want_ to edit a PDF, you obviously can. The difference is really only in the availability of the software (not many people create PDF editors).

        Word Perfect did not have this problem and was the defacto standard before MicroSquish got them

        That was a different world where there was less cri
      • by Vellmont (569020) on Friday August 17 2007, @03:57PM (#20267693)

        The real problem is that there is still a difference.

        The more I think about this idea, the more I disagree with it. I think it's a great thing that there's a separation between "presentation" formats, and formats intended to be edited. Why? Because presentation formats should always be the same, always be readable by an older version of software, etc. Editing formats have different needs, like adding new features like layers, links to other documents, etc.

        Look at the photoshop format (psd I think) vs jpg for instance. jpg is a format intended to be published, where psd is a flexible format for a designer to do whatever they please with the photo (seperate layers, all that jazz).

        In short, editing formats need to evolve and be extremely flexible (and thus incompatible), presentation formats need to stay the same (to a large degree). That doesn't mean you can't edit a publishing format of course.. people edit jpgs all the time. It's just not the design goal of the format.
  • I've never seen a single ODF document on any website. But I've seen a lot of .docs and zillions of .pdfs.
  • How long will it be before MSFT posts a massive number of ooxml docs on line to spin the numbers? How long will it take to write a script to convert a bunch of doc files and translate them into ooxml and post it in some site or the other?

    What would be significant is, if public in some county or school district sues the Govt agency claiming, they have a fundamental right to get Govt documents in a format that is not saddled with proprietary burdens, they should have the right to process these docs and for

  • Most business and professional users aren't writting their documents to put them on the web.
    • I see plenty of cases where documents are put on the web. I just recently filled out an application for a grant for a non-profit organization I'm involved with. They had an application form that we had to fill out and made it available as both a MS Word and PDF file.
  • Apple and Oranges (Score:3, Insightful)

    by in10se (472253) on Friday August 17 2007, @03:18PM (#20267099) Homepage
    1. Most people using Office 2007 are still saving their documents in XP/2003 format, so don't confuse the use of the format with the use of the software. In addition, Office 2007 has built-in support for PDF which is a better choice of format for the web.
    2. You can't expect major corporations OR small businesses to jump formats overnight (and yes, 7 months is "overnight" when you are talking about major software changes).
    3. ODF is output by various free software. More people are willing to download, upload, and play with free software. Geeks are more likely to play with free software. Geeks are more likely to upload documents to the web than normal internet users.
    4. Word processing documents (in either format) aren't really meant for the web anyway.

    All of these things will lower the number of OOXML documents on the web even if the use of Office 2007 is growing. Any opinions of Microsoft, Linux, Office aside, the comparison in TFA means absolutely nothing.