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Linux Foundation Calls for 'Respect for Microsoft'
Posted by
Zonk
on Sat Aug 11, 2007 12:21 PM
from the so-what-macos-is-chopped-liver dept.
from the so-what-macos-is-chopped-liver dept.
kripkenstein writes "Jim Zemlin (executive director for the Linux Foundation) gave a talk at LinuxWorld saying that the open source community should stop poking fun at Microsoft. From the VNU article: 'Open source vendors have to recognize that Windows is here to stay and that together with Microsoft it will form a duopoly in the market for operating systems. This also requires that the Linux community respects Microsoft rather than ridicule it. "There are some things that Windows does pretty well," Zemlin said. Microsoft for instance has excelled in marketing the operating system, and has a good track record in fending off competition.'"
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Torvalds on Linux and Microsoft 363 comments
Sniper223 writes with a link to an interview on the Network World site with Linus Torvalds. Linus goes through the usual spiel about stuff like why he released the Linux OS in the first place, and how the future is open source. He also has some interesting commentary on the Microsoft/Novell deal: "I actually thought that whole discussion was interesting, not because of any Novell versus MS issues at all, but because all the people talking about them so clearly showed their own biases. The actual partnership itself seemed pretty much a nonissue to me, and not nearly as interesting as the reaction it got from people, and how it was reported ... I don't actually personally think the Novell-MS agreement kind of thing matters all that much in the end, but it's interesting to see the signs that the sides are at least talking to each other. I don't know what the end result will be, but I think it would be healthier for everybody if there wasn't the kind of rabid hatred on both sides. Some people get a bit too excited about MS, I think. I don't think they are that interesting." An interesting contrast to our earlier conversation.
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Uh-huh. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Uh-huh. (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Uh-huh. (Score:4, Insightful)
I got my boss to switch to open source for a lot of things that way.
Parent
Re:Uh-huh. (Score:5, Insightful)
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Thanks (Score:4, Funny)
It's nice to know at least one person here on /. respects me.
Sorry, I couldn't help myself!
Parent
Re:Uh-huh. (Score:5, Insightful)
I respect the power of physics when I walk down the stairs. It doesn't make me an uncle tom.
The Linux community needs a "come to jesus" meeting, where we recognize the strength of worthy adversaries and study their moves, not dismiss them as unworthy of study. They most certainly are worthy of respect and study! They dominate the market! Dismiss that at your own demise.
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Re:Uh-huh. (Score:4, Insightful)
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Re:Uh-huh. (Score:4, Interesting)
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Re:Uh-huh. (Score:4, Informative)
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Not just that. (Score:5, Insightful)
And that anyone using Linux (unless specially licensed) owes Microsoft some money.
And for Microsoft's continuing attempts to kill / marginalize the ODF standard.
Yes, Microsoft deserves your respect and not your disgust. So says an executive from a company that has purchased a "partnership" with Microsoft.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Apple chose a closed hardware and software platform that sells at a fixed price through a limited number of outlets. At any given moment, there will be a half dozen or so Macs to choose from on the market, and, if none of them quite fits your needs, well, tough luck. Microsoft liked the look of the IBM PC's modular design, and negotiated a deal
Re: (Score:3)
Seconded. Consumers gave Microsoft its (questionable at the very least) monopoly, and they continue to support it. Competition in the operating system market is pretty healthy, and we have many choices. That being said,
...at what? Are they good at making software? Not as far as I can tell. Their only qualities are, as was said before, in marketing and business practice. So they're pretty much only good at being a case study for
Re:Uh-huh. (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
"There are some things that Windows does pretty well," Zemlin said. "Microsoft for instance has excelled in marketing the operating system, and has a good track record in fending off competition.'"
Neither marketing nor "fending off competition" has a thing to do with Windows. Windows the product sucks. Microsoft the corporation has used illegal mea
Respect? For M$? (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Yeah. That didn't work in Kindergarten, and it doesn't work now.
From TFA: "Open source vendors have to recognise that Windows is here to stay and that together with Microsoft it will form a duopoly in the market for operating systems."
Um, what abour Mac OS X? You know, that "other" OS with a higher market share than Linux?
So MS does marketting, Linux does software? (Score:4, Insightful)
So what he's saying is that Linux excels at being good software, while Microsoft only excel at marketing practices? Sounds like a double-edged compliment to Microsoft to me!
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
But if by marketing you just mean the crap that's on TV intermixed with the shows, well, fair enough.
Microsoft is so... 1998 (Score:3, Insightful)
MS has lost it's way ( as documented in Joel's "How Microsoft Lost the API War" ) and with applications moving more towards the web as a platform, things don't look to improve.
Jim
RunFatBoy ( http://www.runfatboy.net/ [runfatboy.net] ) - Exercise for the rest of us.
Old Idea, Some Quotes to Reinforce (Score:5, Insightful)
Poking fun at them is only a sign of overconfidence as Luke once said to Darth Vadar & Emperor Palpatine
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Should I get you a copy of Bartlett's for your birthday? I mean there's got to be someone else who said "pride goeth before a fall," right?
--
Toro
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
High minded thinking indeed. But I'm more suited to hurl insults at M$ from the safety of my Gentoo machine in my mother's basement.
Sarcasm (Score:4, Insightful)
Saying all Microsoft has ever done well is marketing and fending off competition is setting an example for not ridiculing them? I believe he's just being sarcastic.
No thanks (Score:5, Insightful)
Marketing Strategy (Score:4, Interesting)
Uh huh... (Score:5, Insightful)
No matter how important a role some group plays towards making something else important work, the nature of humans and comedy are going to have everyone and everything important to everyone mocked constantly. And no matter how bad that paints a picture of the large groups who mock other groups as part of that process - people are going to be mocking eachother as long as mental associations can be made.
The message behind this suggestion seems to be more a message to "act more professional people, you're making us look like bozos". Yes... it's nice to imagine sometimes that a loose community of groups and individuals didn't have to act exactly like the kind of human grouping it is. But we are humans, and Windows IS fun to make fun of, and most of us say that as Windows users.
Yes, Windows has contributed much for everyday users of computers - it has made many things possible that may not have been possible otherwise, and it will continue to be the best path towards many kinds of progress for the everyday use of computers going forward for the immediately foreseeable future... but it's still contains an endless variety of deep flaws that both mock the underlying nature (DRM motivations, artificially segmenting functionality for legal/marketing needs) of the software, and the human nature that lies behind these things, and our reaction to them.
Ryan Fenton
not the tech (Score:5, Insightful)
I'll start respecting Microsoft.... (Score:4, Insightful)
Makes good sense to me (Score:5, Insightful)
He's absolutely right on other points as well. If Linux rises to desktop prominence, against a competitor that has a 95% market share on the desktop (a practical monopoly), then the next logical step must be a duopoly, and it is doubtful that Microsoft will ever "go away." They will likely change the way they do business, like IBM did. Perhaps they will produce their own "open source" products, and then the Linux/FOSS community had better be ready for it, because they certainly won't be free software.
Expect it.
They've already proven the first axiom of business. Courts are the slowest moving thing on the planet. Business decisions will always outpace court decisions. That's how they got away with their illegal actions to slaughter STAC and Netscape. It didn't matter by the time the courts had decided. That's how Microsoft managed to pen a patent agreement with Novell, who won the MS-funded patent case against SCO, before the SCO case was even over. Did anyone notice that?
They're moving faster than anyone can litigate. Being right is not good enough here. You have to be right, clever, and decisive. If you can be ethical too, good for you, but ethical doesn't tend to work against an unethical opponent. Try winning a fair fight against a guy who is willing to kick you in the crotch and throw sand in your face some time.
Developers had better keep a careful eye on this gorilla, or you're going to end up working for him. Respect the gorilla.
--
Toro
The same Jim Zemlin??? (Score:4, Interesting)
Can you say "Big chunk of Microsoft change in Zemlins pocket"? I can.http://www.businessweek.com/technology/conten
There are reasons... (Score:5, Insightful)
One should respect MS as a relationship with MS could be compared to a relationship with any other vendor.
A typical non-OSS user won't exactly be enchanted if they see the OSS community treating another company like degenerates. They don't know the difference between MS and any other company, all they see is OSS devs/users treating a company like crap. If you take a one-sided view, that makes OSS devs/users look bad. That's probably the only view they'll be taking since they haven't worshipped at the church of FLOSS.
If you look at the civil rights movement, Martin Luther King encouraged all to be non-violent, not carry weapons, and not give any excuse for others to even mistake them for wanting to possibly even slightly exhibit any negative behaviour or thoughts. That's to take any power away from the enemy, as they can't say anything if there's nothing for them to point out.
Another reason is that truth can come from anywhere, and a good argument will stand no matter who makes it. If we simply expect everything out of MS to be garbage, then we will also miss any jewels, and that's just hurting ourselves.
Anyway look. Bottom line is to be better than MS, we can't let ourselves go by saying "Oh, well, MS fucks up, we can too, just not as bad." That's pretty asinine. Nope. To be better than MS, we have to actually be better than them, not stoop just as low as them.
In a word: no. (Score:4, Insightful)
As long as they claim to have the most secure operating system ever: No.
As long as they count one defect against Linux multiple times in comparisons: No.
As long as they treat paying customers like criminals: No.
As long as their software comes without a warranty and they use a lack of a Linux warranty as a reason to not use OSS: No.
As long as they do not count "maintenance windows" as part of downtime in their uptime/availability comparisons: No.
As long as their marketing literature is based on lies/FUD rather than facts: No.
As long as their 2007 "3D desktop"'s features barely matches that of what OS X could do in 2003: No. Want a proper 3D desktop? Check out XGL and Beryl on Linux, 3D Desktop on OS X.
I think we'll be making fun of Microsoft for years to come, as long as they keep up their FUD and they keep promoting minor cosmetic changes, DRM, and annoying features like [CANCEL] [CONTINUE] as innovations.
Re:I thought OS X Linux (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:I thought OS X Linux (Score:4, Funny)
Boyfriend asks girlfriend to suck his cock. Girlfriend says she won't because then he won't respect her. Boyfriend promises to respect her and take her out for a big dinner at expensive restaraunt if she does. She sucks his cock, and later they go out for dinner. The waiter arrives and the boyfriend orders for both. He orders lobster for himself, and for her: "...and bring us a steak for the cocksucker here. She loves to eat meat."
Zemlin is a cocksucker. Microsoft is his meal ticket.
Parent
Gates is the Chief of Grief. (Score:3, Insightful)
He's another computer professional with zero social experience. People don't like Microsoft because Microsoft is abusive. For example:
Embrace, Extend, Extinguish" or
"The whole world is our beta tester" or
"We can release sloppy, sloppy code because we have a virtual monopoly" or
"Security vulnerabilities make us money because many people with infected computers buy new computers, and therefore buy another copy of
Re:Gates is the Chief of Grief. (Score:5, Insightful)
This is called "pointless forking" and "not invented here syndrome" in the open source world. Feh, big deal.
The whole world is our beta tester
Google does this. Apple does this. Every open source project ever released does this.
We can release sloppy, sloppy code because we have a virtual monopoly
The open source version of this is "you have no right to complain because you got it for free" and "you got the source code so fix it yourself". Also, Microsoft doesn't have a monopoly on anything at this point in time. Also, there are plenty of other non-monopolists who release poorly-made products.
Security vulnerabilities make us money...
This is just FUD. Show me any proof that this is how Microsoft reasons. Furthermore, it's pathetic to blame Microsoft because people are stupid. Oblig. car analogy: For years, Mercedes cars have had problems with premature body rust. Would you consider this a scheme to get people to buy new cars more often?
When you partner with Microsoft, you are partnering with someone who will be partly an enemy if that makes more money.
This is mostly true for all companies. It's about making money, not being cozy friends with everybody.
Parent
Heeeeere's Godwin! (Score:5, Funny)
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Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:I thought OS X Linux (Score:4, Insightful)
The provision of "general use" is unecessary. A platform is a platform.
Parent
Re:I thought OS X Linux (Score:4, Informative)
In what world? Perhaps you have some sort of strange unspoken defintion of "real" the rest of us aren't using? OSX isn't an operating system at all. The operating system is Darwin (its kernel to be technical) and the distribution that is based on that operating system is OSX. Linux is a real and complete operating system and there are many distributions based on it. Windows is both an operating system and a distribution.
'Dissing it as "not a real OS" or "not available for general use" is an exaggeration at best, or really just a troll.'
I wouldn't really go around saying it isn't a real OS (technical distinctions aside) but 'not available for general use' certainly applies. Most of us define general use for an operating system as 'general use on commodity hardware'.
'Also, your argument about licensing out the Mac OS has been shot down so many times I won't even bother to get into it.'
It's been discussed anyway. I'm pretty sure the only ones who walk away feeling it was shut down were those who felt that way from the get go.
'you seem woefully... biased in general. OS-X is... arguably the best desktop operating system'
Perhaps you should consider yourself before saying others are biased. OSX being the best desktop operating system is something that MOST informed individuals would dispute (I don't give my own opinion because its beside the point).
Like it or not, not everyone who makes a negative comment about MacOS, Mac's, or Apple is a troll and this is an open forum where people are entitled to think OSX, Linux, or Windows sucks. If you are modding people down simply because they think your pet system sucks you are abusing moderation privs. In fact, if you (or anyone) are modding people down for any reason you are probably using the moderation system incorrectly. Moderation is primarily intended for modding up worthwhile comments, not censoring comments you feel unworthy.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Have you ever used XP or 2000? It's not "shitty". It's certainly not the best thing ever, but it sure as fuck beats using Linux for a desktop machine. Please note that I ran Linux as my only OS from 1997 through 2002 and then went back and haven't returned.
Vista was a mistake (much like 3.11 or ME) but they have made some OSs that are quite solid, work just fine for the majority of users, and are deployed (tactics or not) on 100s
Re:Wait, what? (Score:4, Insightful)
It may not be shitty in an absolute sense, but given the amount of money and time that have been spent on it, shitty it still is. If our industry was composed of several large operating system companies rather than one behemoth and a dozen hanging on by their fingernails we would be much much better off. Microsoft didn't get where they are primarily by the strength of their technology offerings but by other less ethical means. Bait and switch, kickbacks, embrace and extinguish, buyout and extinguish and numerous similar gimmickry do more to describe the company than any feature set, or heaven forbid "innovation" that they are responsible for. They are where they are for little other reason than the federal government (followed by the states) eventually standardized on their products forcing a chain reaction of most companies to do likewise.
If they made any other product than software (which still possesses a mysterious legal immunity) they would have been sued out of business by now.
Given the amount of time and money they have had to spend on it, it would be a miracle if they hadn't achieve some degree of stability by now, as it is, it is a miracle that they have achieved as little as they have.
Glad you are enjoying your Microsoft experience again. I switched to Linux in the late 90's too and have seen no reason to go back. Linux is marginally harder to install, but the "thrill" of re-installing operating systems wore off for me while I was still a Windows user. Maybe you actually look forward to each "new" release.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
How much MONEY have they sunk into it? (Score:4, Insightful)
Yes they are. Here's why:
#1. The registry. It's too fucking brittle AND it is constantly open by Windows AND it is not automatically replicated X times over Y days so you can recover when it does break. And it will, eventually, break.
#2. Which is why Microsoft shops advocate the "Wipe & Reload" method of "support". It broke, don't spend time trying to fix it. Fixing it is not an option. Wipe it and reload the "base image" that your shop uses. Sure it will take 30 - 60 minutes, but even if you have to do that for a dozen machines a week, it's still faster than finding the real problems.
#3. Viruses, trojans & worms. At least with Linux I can boot from a "Live CD" and chroot the local hard drive and check it / edit it to remove problems. WITHOUT losing all the data that the user has saved to it (see #2 above).
#4. No packaging system (see Debian & Ubuntu). And don't start going on about how you can make a "package" in Windows. That just shows you don't know what you're talking about. In Windows ANY app can replace ANY file when you install it. Under a real package management system, each file is owned by one AND ONLY ONE package. That file is NOT replaced unless you upgrade/remove the package that owns it. (or choose "force" and know that you're probably fucking up your system)
Some of the end-users prefer Windows. That's fine. It's personal choice. But it's still a "shitty" operating system based upon "shitty" decisions.
Parent
You must not use Linux. (Score:3, Informative)
It is A registry. But I can boot a Linux box WITHOUT it. And one I can boot it, I can fix it.
BULLSHIT. I'm typing this on a machine that's been upgraded, online, to Gutsy Gibbon all the way from Hoary Hedgehog. (Hoary - Breezy - D
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Yes. In fact, I'm responsible for system management for a number of them.
I'll happily accept that XP and 2000 are miles ahead of '9x.
The main problems I have are:
1. Their lack of respect for established, published standards. Linux and Mac OS X can both
Re:Wait, what? (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
I've been saying this forever. (Score:4, Insightful)
Sun Tzu was right though, you can either wean yourself off the enemy and create your own destiny, or you can destroy Darth Vader and take his place at the Emperor's side. Either you choose a side, or you don't play their game. Most Linux geeks have chosen a side, and will eventually find themselves in Darth Vader's shoes. It is inevitable when one takes the path of confrontation. One monster must be created to oppose the existing one, unless the wise man fends off the monster and lets it die of its own irrelevance.
Parent