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Microsoft, Sue Me First
Posted by
kdawson
on Mon May 21, 2007 06:31 PM
from the no-meee dept.
from the no-meee dept.
corigo writes "Supporters of free and open source solutions have thrown down the gauntlet at Microsoft's feet. Christian Einfeldt of Digital Tipping Point says 'Sue Me First,' and he's not alone. More and more people are signing up and challenging Microsoft to put their lawyers where their mouth is. The open source community is far from running scared. Will Microsoft step up to the plate, or are they just continuing a scare campaign with no real ability to leverage the patents they claim open source is infringing?"
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...hmm (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re:...hmm (Score:5, Funny)
All: And me. And me too. And me.
Dingo: Yes. Yes, you must give us all a good suing.
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Re:...hmm (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:...hmm (Score:5, Funny)
I guess sudoing would be OK as well...
Oh, wait...
Parent
Re:...hmm (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:...hmm (Score:5, Funny)
"I'm not scared, because I have this army of lawyers that will leap to my aid the moment i'm in danger. Right guys? guys? GUYS? [crickets chirp]"
I'd get that in writing if I were you.
Parent
let me be the first to say: (Score:5, Funny)
sue him first, pls.
fp btw!
Re:let me be the first to say: (Score:5, Funny)
Spoken like a true Anonymous Coward!
- RG>
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Whatever value your post may have had has just been completely negated.
In Soviet Russia, (Score:5, Funny)
The answer is... (Score:5, Funny)
A: Will Microsoft step up to the plate...
B: or are they just continuing a scare campaign with no real ability to leverage the patents they claim open source is infringing?
I'll take B for all the money in the world, Bob.
Re:The answer is... (Score:5, Funny)
ARE YOU CRAZY??? MS lawyers I can handle, but don't tempt them to bring out Bob.
Parent
Does this "challenge" have any legal significance? (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Does this "challenge" have any legal significan (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:Does this "challenge" have any legal significan (Score:5, Informative)
IANAL, and you shouldn't rely on this as legal advice, YMMV, etc.:
It might affect their ability to sue the particular people for reasons unrelated to abandonment (statutes of limitations, laches, and various estoppel theories), especially if it can be shown that Microsoft knew about the particular facts that it would allege are violations by the particular users early on and didn't act.
It probably won't affect their ability to sue other people, though.
But trademarks are very different from copyrights, and there is nothing in copyright similar to abandoning a trademark. Trademarks are protected based largely on use, copyrights are not.
Parent
Mickey Mouse should be Public Domain (Score:4, Interesting)
No wait... Disney called in a favor from their brown-paper-bag-shills at Congress, who promptly introduced this legislation which kept Mickey from entering the public domain. AFAIAC Disney used Congress to steal it. No wonder Disney grew old and stale: They have no incentive to come up with anything new. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonny_Bono_Copyright
Who were the Congressional Shills? Despite the name it wasn't Congressman Sonny Bono, but I can't tell you who did it. This is what sucks about Congress. We get nasty bills passed that take away our rights, but Congressmen are shy to stick their name on it. So while grumbling about this, the DMCA, the Parrot Act, you could be voting for a shill who sponsored it.
How about someone do a web site showing who is a shill and who isn't. Wikipedia doesn't carry this sort of info.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
i'd think its a bloody smart idea to leave dealing with those guys to those with the protection of governement (cops, armed forces etc) if you value your life.
Why would they bother? (Score:5, Insightful)
(I'm looking at OLTP, because that's a worldwide non-Microsoft venture that could seriously dent Microsoft revenue in growing markets and because it's the biggest event due any time soon. Microsoft's FUD is generally not random but very purposeful and has a specific goal in mind. There simply isn't another goal on a comparable scale on any kind of near-term timeframe.)
There are a few other avenues that Linux could be doing well in, but Microsoft is growing faster in the server market despite inferior performance, reliability or security, and that's the only other area Linux and Microsoft have any serious rivalry at this time. Linux could be doing well on the desktop, but not while it is playing catch-up. It would have to invent a whole new metaphor before it could seriously threaten Microsoft in the home market.
Can you force someone to sue you? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Can you force someone to sue you? (Score:5, Informative)
Sort of: someone who would be guilty of infringement if the patent claims Microsoft is asserting were true and has reasonable apprehension of a lawsuit could themselves bring suit for declaratory judgement.
It also may be possible that a suit could be brought for defamation by someone adversely affected by the claims; that would be a harder case to advance, but carries the possibility of actual damages.
Parent
Do not want! (Score:4, Insightful)
This may sound like a troll, but it really is not: in my opinion, Linux enthusiasts crying, "sue me first!" creates in the mind of traditional business people the idea that such enthusiasts are risk-seeking. Not everyone wants to be associated with a risk-seeker.
Re:Do not want! (Score:5, Insightful)
On the other hand, if Linux just sat back and let Microsoft dish out the patent threats, companies might not want to be associated with the threat of lawsuits. Damned if they do, damned if they don't, basically.
At least this way, Linux is trying to head the FUD off at the pass, before real damage can be done. And if I was a decision maker, I'd view it as a mark of confidence in a product if they're willing to stand up to Microsoft.
Parent
If Microsoft DID have a case... (Score:5, Interesting)
Obligatory quote... (Score:5, Insightful)
Let's see whether Microsoft runs out of cruciforms first or the Open Source community runs out of people first.
It's on.
I For One, Welcome Our New Linux Overlords! (Score:5, Insightful)
For too long Microsoft has bullied and intimidated. They have monopolized, stolen code (remember the Stacker lawsuit?), and tried to dominate the entire world. Sadly, they did pretty well at it.
But now, Linux is, IMHO, ready for the general user and the common desktop. It doesn't require the skills that it once did thanks to Gnome and KDE. For most people, web browsing, reading e-mail, and processing word documents, spreadsheets, and presentations, Linux looks and feels pretty damn close to Windows - but has added enhancements, has better security, and is far cheaper to own.
I'm sure these latest developments, with Dell offering Ubuntu, Vista being bad-mouthed by gamers and office users alike, and open sourcers far and wide mocking Microsoft and it's chair-throwing flunkie, Bill and company are just a wee tad worried.
Pre-emptive Class Action Lawsuit (Score:5, Interesting)
Declaratory relief action (Score:5, Informative)
I am a lawyer with a very small civil practice in San Francisco. IMHO, t would be possible to file a declaratory relief action. Almost anyone who has been encumbered by a Microsoft patent threat would have standing to do so. I would be willing to participate in such a lawsuit, obviously, since my name is the first on the TFA "Sue me" list.
In order for a declaratory relief lawsuit to work, we would need to have coordinated action by some of the other large stakeholders whose businesses would be impacted by Microsoft's questionable PR patent campaign against FOSS. That takes time, planning, and money, though.
In the meantime, I wanted to take some action now to see if we could at least get a show of hands of people who doubt Microsoft's questionable PR patent campaign. I believe that few in the FOSS community really believe that Microsoft's purported patent claims have merit. So we probably need to shout really loud, so that the rest of the world can see and hear us. We don't want people to believe that a) We in the FOSS community are doing anything that is illegal, because we're not; or b) that we have doubts about whether or not Microsoft's questionable PR patent claims have merit (they don't, IMHO).
IMHO, we really can't allow Microsoft to dominate the airwaves with its questionable patent claims against us.
Christian Einfeldt,
Producer, The Digital Tipping Point
Parent
/.-ed (Score:3, Funny)
Why sue when you can Deny Service? (Score:4, Funny)
Mark Shuttleworth take on the MS Linux lawsuit (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Mark Shuttleworth take on the MS Linux lawsuit (Score:4, Interesting)
That's not that big a risk. License a patent, pay some damages, buy the competition. They don't really hurt that badly in any of those scenarios. It's when some high-rolling PHB says "What do you have that can do the job of this other software that I heard about?" and they have to say "Nothing." that they really hurt. What keeps them filling their swimming pools with a fresh batch of c-notes every week is that the sheep don't have to know the name of more than one software company.
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First they came for the ... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Several people were speaking up for you, but you failed to read the message due to an IRC netsplit.
And you can always seek refuge on a Mac.
Re:First they came for the ... (Score:4, Funny)
Parent
Re:First they came for the ... (Score:5, Insightful)
That's an offensively stupid comparison you've got there. Try a car analogy.
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Re:First they came for the ... (Score:5, Funny)
First, they came for the Volvos, but I didn't say anything, because I didn't drive a Volvo. Then they came for the Volkswagons...
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Just ignore this (Score:5, Funny)
How many SUSE using Susie's could Microsoft sue If Microsoft could sue SUSE using Susie's who sell sea shells down by the sea shore?
Answer: None. I think.
Honorary 'Stig' (Score:3, Informative)
Presenter Another man who had his head nailed to the floor was Stig O' Tracey.
Cut to another younger more cheerful man on sofa.
Interviewer Stig, I've been told Dinsdale Piranha nailed your head to the floor.
Stig No, no. Never, never. He was a smashing bloke. He used to give his mother flowers and that. He was like a brother to me.
Interviewer But the police have film of Dinsdale actually nailing your head to the floor.
Stig Oh yeah, well - he did that, yeah.
Interviewer Why?
Stig Well he had to, didn't he? I mean, be fair, there was nothing else he could do. I mean, I had transgressed the unwritten law.
Interviewer What had you done?
Stig Er... Well he never told me that. But he gave me his word that it was the case, and that's good enough for me with old Dinsy. I mean, he didn't want to nail my head to the floor. I had to insist. He wanted to let me off. There's nothing Dinsdale wouldn't do for you.
Slashdot has crushed us. (Score:5, Funny)
Christian Einfeldt,
Producer, The Digital Tipping Point
Another Idea: Sue Microsoft's Customers First (Score:5, Insightful)
1) Demand the business or government body to disclose copies of the anti virus logs for all of their desktops and laptops.
2) Generate a list of all the malware that
a) was cleaned up post infection ( the malware was actually executed and run ) AND
b) exploited vulnerabilities in Microsoft applications and operating system prior to an update fix being made available by Microsoft.
In comparison to MacOSX or Linux based desktop, Microsoft's desktop operating systems and Microsoft's desktop applications face a disproportionally higher risk of being "infected" with hostile malware. Just relying on third party Antivirus software to prop up a Microsoft flagging security record in no way puts you any closer to the level of security that a switch to another vendors desktop platform can provide. ( Just updating to Vista is no guarantee of better security in comparison to another vendors platform )
A business or government body is not taking due care with the private information they hold on the public if they continue to use Microsoft desktop OS environments or Microsoft desktop applications. That is your credit card data, banking details , health care info and social security information. If switching to Linux or MacOSX based desktops would greatly reduce the risk of further intrusion why should not organizations be "encouraged" to make the move.
If anyone's customers are at greater risk of being sued it is Microsoft's own customers that face the greatest risk.
Microsoft's PR team is just awesome!! (Score:5, Insightful)
This is exactly my point, and it's why I offered to have Microsoft sue me. Microsoft is doing an excellent job of PR, and we need to draw public attention to two basic facts: 1) Microsoft's patent claims are unmeritorious; and 2) Microsoft is making vague patent threats because self-censorship is cheaper and more powerful than filing patent infringement lawsuits that only work in the US, if they work at all.
If you are not seeing the kinder, gentler IM donations on your screen, you can see them here on the Digital Tipping Point Flickr account, at least until Microsoft buys Yahoo, at which point you will see them only on our Google Picasa account:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/49947835@N00/5088135
http://www.flickr.com/photos/49947835@N00/5088135
http://www.flickr.com/photos/49947835@N00/5087770
http://www.flickr.com/photos/49947835@N00/5087826
Note to Microsoft counsel Brad Smith, Esq.: If you need documentary proof for your trial against me that I use Ubuntu GNU Linux, you can use this screenshot, which I am hereby vouching is a true and accurate shot depicting my Edgy Ubuntu desktop which, coincidentally, I am using to produce the Digital Tipping Point film. Among other things, the DTP film will suggest that Microsoft, like RCA and IBM before it, is facing an "innovator's dilemma" that will disrupt its current monopolistic business model. The funny thing is that the same market forces that propelled Microsoft to hammer IBM is now going to help IBM return the favor, this time using GNU Linux and OpenOffice.org. But I guess you knew that already, Sir Brad, because that is why you have been filing patents. You once worked at IBM. You learned well. Here is that proof you will want if you ever do file a case against me:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/49947835@N00/5087826
Not really. (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Not really. (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Not really. (Score:5, Interesting)
Apparently not because the small developers are daring MS to sue them.
I see this going the way of lindows. Ms sues Lindows. Lindows challenges Ms trademark. Ms knows they are going to lose. Ms pays lindows a bunch of money to withdraw their suit.
The way I see it Ms will sue and then pay the people they are suing in exchange for dropping their challenge to Ms patents.
This could be a good money making scheme and I think Ms is stupid enough to actually take these people up on their dare.
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Re:Not really. (Score:5, Interesting)
1) actually must sue them
2) disclose what specific code infringes
3) lose the ability to enforce their patent rights against people who requested one of 1 or 2.
4) Profit!
Now, I know that patents normally don't act this way, but in this case they do. MS has been publicly stating that the software infringes. If somebody asks MS directly what specific code is infringing, and MS is not forthcoming, that will prevent them from winning a later suit against that person. Microsoft must make an effort to resolve the situation, or their later suits will be dismissed according to the doctrine of laches.
So if you are confident that your software doesn't infringe on any valid patents, go ahead and send MS a registered letter asking for the details of the infringement.
Parent
Ummm, wasn't Microsoft behind the SCO thing...? (Score:4, Insightful)
a) SCO/Microsoft: "You're infringing, we're suing!!"
b) Microsoft: "You're infringing, we're suing!!"
Different singer, same song.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
2 - regardless of who wins, the stakes ARE high. We are talking about basic freedoms here. Not just some IP thing. Think outside the box here.
3 - time will tell who wins i dont think its going to blow over this time. Microsoft on one side trying to screw us, RIAA on the other. Its going to get ugly before it gets better.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
At close of market today, IBM's market capitalization was 158.94 billion Dollars. Microsoft's was 297.05 billion. Your definition of "almost" is rather loose.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
MS doesn't have an open source business model. They have a "we'll give you almost anything if you pay us" business model.
You also should know that back in the 70s and 80s IBM had a multistory building full of lawyers for the sole purpose of fighting the US government. SCO is nothing.
BTW. IBM's market cap (source) [yahoo.com] is $159 US billion. Microsoft's is $297 US billion. Neither company could possibly litigate until their opponent went out of business.