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Why You Can't Buy a Naked PC
Posted by
Zonk
on Fri Mar 16, 2007 03:41 PM
from the put-some-clothes-on dept.
from the put-some-clothes-on dept.
ZDOne writes "A piece up on ZDNet looks at the issue of naked PCs. ZDNet UK phoned around all the major PC vendors and not one of them would sell a machine without Windows on it. IT professionals are being forced to adopt Microsoft's operating systems — even if they tell their PC supplier they want a system free of Microsoft software. On the other hand, even if it's almost impossible to buy a PC without an operating system installed, companies like Dell and HP are now committed to supporting Linux as well. 'Murray believes there is a market for Linux in the UK but is also aware of the issues facing any large supplier who wants to make Linux boxes available. "It means diverting production lines and that is a lot of money and so we have to prove the business case," he said. However, he made it clear that he is enthusiastic about the idea and wants to make it work. "We just have to show it is worthwhile," he said.'"
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Technology: Dell Refunds Vista/Works With Two Emails 277 comments
look@thealternative.ch writes "Although many people have asked for pre-installed Linux, and Dell seems to have listened, some still think that buying a naked PC won't be easy. But what about stripping it naked after you buy it? I managed to get Windows Vista (and a bit more) refunded from Dell Germany last week. The process was surprisingly simple: 1) After delivery, ask Dell Support for refund by email. 2) ??? 3) Refund!!! Read the full email conversation in the original German or my English translation. For the impatient reader: The refund is €77.54 for Windows Vista Home Basic plus Works 8.0 (that is 15% of the total amount I paid). The whole process took 2 emails, 2 more to say thank you, and less than 48 hours. The money is already in my account. Kudos to Dell Customer Care (esp. 'Veronika') for being efficient and customer-oriented!"
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Why does it matter if it's free? (Score:4, Insightful)
I have yet to get a new pc I didn't re-image or install from scratch anyway. If I used linux I'm certain I wouldn't like the vendor's setup any more than I like their win installs. Too many custom setting to get these kinds of things to work they way we use them. If the windows is effectively free, and you have to do a reinstall anyway, why not just ignore it?
Oh, right - it's far more appropriate to whine about it.
Re:Why does it matter if it's free? (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Why does it matter if it's free? (Score:4, Funny)
Parent
Re:List of vendors selling no-OS computers (Score:5, Informative)
If you look at the first link you posted they have laptops with 128 Megs of RAM. Wee I can install an OS.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
This looks good: http://www.efficientpc.co.uk/systems/ [efficientpc.co.uk]
There are also a few places that have a limited rage (sometimes one) of Linux PCs: http://www.clown-fish.com/shop/index.php?cPath=38 [clown-fish.com] (they have plenty of Linux compatible barebone systems though http://www.clown-fish.com/shop/index.php?cPath=3 [clown-fish.com]) and http://www.thelinuxshop.co.uk/catalog/index.php?cP ath=30 [thelinuxshop.co.uk].
Of course in the US there is http://system76.com/ [system76.com]
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Re:Why does it matter if it's free? (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't know that any real numbers have ever been released, but many analysts I've read think the main PC sellers actually make money just by including Windows because of all the other stuff they install on the PC with it.
Parent
Re:Why does it matter if it's free? (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
Re:Why does it matter if it's free? (Score:5, Informative)
Where they bought through the "Home" or "Business" sections of Dell's site?
Because (and this is no secret, and not limited to Dell) the computers sold to "home" and "student" users are the ones loaded with garbage. The business models are pretty much clean, for obvious reasons. And the deals are usually better, too...
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
one today had a new dell they had hardly ever turned on. it showed. 4 programs popped-up when windows started, nagging the fuck out of me, and norton popped up while i tried to setup their email account in outlook, and something else popped up when the connection was active and i opened a browser to demonstrate the service to the customer. meh.
Re:Why does it matter if it's free? (Score:5, Informative)
In an ideal world, you'd be absolutely right. In the current one, not so much. I have an old Dell laptop with a 15.4" screen at 1920x1200, and WinXP really doesn't cope all that well. Changing the DPI setting (the "correct" solution) broke pretty much everything. Keeping the standard-but-wrong DPI and cranking up font sizes used to mostly work except for dialog boxes, which go badly messed up. At some point MS gave up and changed their policy via an update; now, dialog box text is always sized for 96dpi and cannot be enlarged.
Ironically, the only thing that manages layout flawlessly and respects font size prefs is Eclipse's SWT toolkit. MS stuff is absolutely nowhere.
Parent
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This is hardly surprising, after all, SWT has been made to be cross-platform so there's less assumptions it can make about the underlaying system and more things it needs to query the system for. It is also immediately obvious when it makes such assumptions, since it will break on some supported platform, so the bugs can't accumulate over time. I'd imagine Swing
Re:Why does it matter if it's free? (Score:4, Insightful)
I.e., most people will look at a 17" screen and assume that it must be better than a 15" screen, because it's bigger. The size is the only metric that they'll use.
So, manufacturers have responded by building absurdly large screens into notebooks, and dropping the resolutions further and further down in order to cut costs.
Parent
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In the meantime, enjoy martyrdom.
Re:Why does it matter if it's free? (Score:5, Insightful)
On a purely financial basis, it's sensible to buy Windows and throw it away. What burns people is that they're enriching Bill Gates with their purchase, even if they delete his software and never use it, and entrenching his monopoly. And the OEMs can state there is no demand for anything else; a vicious circle. It could get more vicious when "Trusted Computing" makes it harder and harder for non-MS OSs to use the hardware at all. With 100% of their sales Windows installed, the OEMs don't care if their hardware supports any other OS.
Parent
Because It Isn't Free (Score:5, Interesting)
Interestingly enough, when you choose the no operating system option, the server suddenly costs $799 less than with Windows 2003 R2 installed.
I don't know how you do math where you are from, but where I'm from $799 isn't free.
Oh, and that's U.S. dollars, just to clarify.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
But then, people might really start asking questions they don't want to answer.
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Preinstalled ensures that drivers exist and work (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Why does it matter if it's free? (Score:5, Interesting)
Actually, the best estimates I've seen place Dell's price for an OEM copy of Windows Vista home at about twice the price Dell is paid for installing nagware. As the computer company you are dealing with gets smaller their Windows discount gets smaller and this delta grows even larger.
Because if they could sell in volume without Windows it would be cheaper yet (drastically cheaper if they lined up Linux nagware) and because without the vendor pre-installing and testing Windows any guarantee that it is "linux capable" is subject to being an exaggeration or just plain wrong. For example, at a previous company we bought Dell towers in bulk that we destined to run Linux, OpenBSD, and NetBSD. We already owned a site license for Windows with plenty of free seats. We still had to pay for licenses for those machines even though we did not want them. Also, being Dell, despite having the same model number and being part of the same shipment, only about 1/3 of the machines actually had all parts that were the same as the test boxes we were shipped and had all the drivers we needed. Out of a few hundred machines we got 3 different video cards, several controllers, hard drives, CD-drives, etc.
You and I are going to image anything we get. The average consumer does not know what an OS is and would never attempt to install one. More importantly, the vendor having to ship with Linux and support it insures all the hardware will have drivers and you have a source for those drivers.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
While yes, a decent Linux sys admin could almost certainly figure out how to build the computer without that information, if you've got the in
Why does it matter if you can just build one? (Score:3)
It's really not too hard to do, and if you plan it out and buy some components on sale, you can probably do the same or better on price than if you bought a system... sure there's your time, but it's an investement in yourself..at worst, hobby time.
Then you're free to install your OS of choice.
Any if you really want to, you can keep co
Re:Why does it matter if it's free? (Score:5, Interesting)
>line. They just... don't put that on it.
In case you are too young to remember, Burger King actually built their market niche on that problem. The other big Hamburger restaurant had developed a model where the food was prepared in advance and special orders were a problem. Burger King came along with a whole marketing angle based on making the burgers fresh, and they promoted it with one of the catchiest jingles in all of advertising history
Parent
Re:Why does it matter if it's free? (Score:4, Funny)
Parent
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are passed on to the consumer in some way. It is entirely possible
that the amounts find their way, in part or in whole, to the
companies bottom line instead.
I blame the Religious Right (Score:5, Funny)
Here Comes the Waaahhhmbulance (Score:5, Interesting)
Put your money where your mouth is, do business with those small companies and they'll eventually become big ones if the demand is great enough. Dell once started out as a small company and selling computers with Windows worked for them.
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Plus, I'd wager that the typical person who wants (and knows they want) Linux is also less likely to be seen dead buying from Dell or Gateway, and more likely to assemble their own PC.
I stopped worrying about such firms years ago when (fortunately before I'd parted with cash) one of their phonedroids informed me that I'd void the warranty if I set it up to dual boot WinNT and Win98 (forget Linux!)
How Can I Buy An Apple Computer W/O An OS (Score:5, Funny)
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Seriously, notice the use of the acronym "PC". It's a semantic trick to exclude non-Windows systems from the analysis. Even now that Macs are x86, they're STILL don't qualify as PCs. People will always find some way to exclude the facts to support their beliefs. One current belief, quite popular in Linux [sic] circles, is that people are forced to use Windows. Those of us who don'
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This is about independent companies seemingly unable to offer an alternative when alternatives exist.
Ford, GM, et.al offer tires from one than one manufacturer, stereos from different manufacturers etc...
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Dell, OTOH, let me buy a laptop with either Intel Integrated Graphics, or an nVidia graphics card (even tho it's otherwise the same model!). Why shouldn't I think it reasonable to be able to buy a laptop with the operating system I prefer, too?
Danged nanny state... (Score:5, Funny)
Err, what about Dell's n series? (Score:5, Informative)
Aside from those vendors, and numerous others that specialize in Linux, I build my own systems for home use. Not a one of them has ever come with Windows.
Re:Err, what about Dell's n series? (Score:4, Interesting)
Parent
Sure, I blame MS, but... (Score:5, Insightful)
When the vendors claim they don't want to sell naked PCs because of the potential support nightmare, I believe them. It's not the Slashdot crowd that's the problem; but there are 100 "Joe"s for every 1 Slashdotter.
Spoils the fun (Score:5, Funny)
Yep. I'm a geek.
Actually, I think the title says it... (Score:5, Interesting)
Basically, vendors don't seem willing to believe that people have the know-how to buy some hardware and then somehow make it work, which kind of makes sense. For example, I'm sure few people would buy a PC without the BIOS installed, and Dell and the like aren't going to cater their huge business to the hobbyists who would flash a PC with their own BIOS, for example.
On the other hand, why they can't make a small stipulation to sell X% of units raw to folks that are DIY'ers, is beyond me.. they could even sell it with a disclosure that they don't support ANY operating system in their contract, however their hardware has been tested with XYZ operating systems.
-6d
there's not enough demand (Score:4, Insightful)
that linux is "free" in all senses for you and me, doesn't make it free for dell, etc. to add an OS would be very expensive and to provide none (for every comptuer), would terribly diminish their product. the OS for dell is a complementary good without which, they couldn't sell their product. not to defend MS or dell, but the truth is, MS is well within their rights to demand that dell sell a copy with every machine to get a volume discount, ability to modify it, etc. but the bottom line is that there just isn't enough interest to justify naked PC's. however, notice Dell's server line. you can get them, which ought to tell you something.
Who's your Daddy now? (Score:3, Insightful)
These days when I buy a laptop, it comes with Windows. When the laptop dies, I can't transfer the license to another PC. They simply don't even provide OS or recovery CDs/DVDs.
So much for the DOJ's Anti-trust agreement with Microsoft. Nothing has changed.
Whew, that's a relief (Score:3, Funny)
'Bare bones PCs' (Score:3, Informative)
It's an opportunity (Score:3, Interesting)
At some point in every sea change, the big established market makers will make a mistake. That mistake will sometimes allow a new type of business to get a toe-hold. The more the old industries know, the more likely they are to get stuck in their ways.
We're at an interesting point in technology. Interest in non-Windows operating systems is on the rise. Vista happens. Companies want/need an alternative they can get in bulk. People like me...and a lot of you...could easily set up an entire office on Ubuntu, if we could bid the job by the unit we might even be competitive. More people would sell hardware if they could call up and get a room full of blanks and configure a custom OS installation and service local markets.
If HP, Dell or whoever isn't supplying the machines, start a company that only supplies no-OS machines. Microsoft can't whine it encourages piracy after five years of product activation. Publish your hardware specs, coordinate drivers.
Your customers will be geeks, hobbyists and companies where...people like us work. You won't have the AOL crowd trying to buy PC's from you. Give them to Dell and HP and Microsoft. Do you really want to do work for the general public? The best use I've seen for them is Soylent Green. Restore some natural selection in the gene pool.
Work out your configurations with an overseas supplier. Opportunities like this don't come along every day in technology. Take advantage. Start small, don't go into debt. Anyone know Mandrin? Email me, let's try it. WTF?
Isn't the OS essentially the Hard Drive. . ? (Score:3, Interesting)
I note on their website that you cannot order a box without a hard drive, which means you'd have to talk to a real-live human in order to get it done. Though, I suspect that whoever I talked to on the phone would have to call their manager over and then collectively scratch their heads on such a request.
--Calling over the manager and lots of head-scratching tend to be common whenever I try to do things in this world. I think this must be the case for anybody who refuses to play sheep at the game of life; there are simply no regular options available for people who are not asleep. Luckily, no matter how much control a corporate body puts into the their systems, I've so far always managed to find ways towards freedom of choice, usually at the expense of somebody's peaceful state of servitude, for which I make no apologies.
-FL
Re:I'm a PC (Score:4, Funny)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Capable, yes. Able to justify it to their employer in a commercial environment? Probably not. It would go something like this:
"You want to do what?"
"Instead of buying these PCs from Dell, which come with a copy of Windows we don't need, I want to buy parts and assemble them into computers myself."
"How much money do we save?"
"About fifty dollars per machine."
"How long will this take?"
"Including testin