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Fedora 8 A Serious Threat to Ubuntu
Posted by
CmdrTaco
on Sun Dec 30, 2007 09:59 AM
from the they-sure-couldn't-talk-more-about-themselves dept.
from the they-sure-couldn't-talk-more-about-themselves dept.
Tubs writes "According to MadPenguin.org's latest article, Fedora 8 from Red Hat is a serious threat to Ubuntu. The author writes, "I was never that swept up with past releases of Fedora. There was nothing compelling about it. But for the first time, I cannot help but feel that the Fedora team has been spoon fed an extra helping of Wheaties, which has put them into overdrive with their accessibility efforts."
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Submission: Fedora 8 Review: A Serious Threat to Ubuntu by Anonymous Coward
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Linux Wars? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Linux Wars? (Score:5, Funny)
Thomas "the winner of Sarcasm" Dzubin
Parent
Re:Linux Wars? (Score:5, Interesting)
I was for instance surprised that there was no hassle AT ALL installing my Brother HL-1250 printer the other day while in windows I've always hassled with drivers and previously in linux I had to config some stuff manually, but this time it was just 100% plug in and pl^H^H print. Totally awesome, I had my tabs printed out in no-time.
I've gone the path from windows to linux by testing out a lot of distros (pretty much redhat->suse->debian->mepis->ubuntu) and most people don't have the patience enough to walk through a wall of configuration, so this is good news for everyone! Even the ubuntu crew should benefit from this in the long run.
Happy new year everybody.
Parent
Re:PC? (Score:5, Insightful)
Every older programmer that I've met still uses the term that way. That usage was also pervasive when I got my first computer as a kid in the 80s, so I still use it that way through force of habit. The Apple switch campaign and pc/mac commercials also continue to make the distinction 'pc' vs. 'mac'.
It's 'dumb' in that the distinction is meaningless in the sense that macs are technically 'personal computers', but 'PC', as with many other terms, has additional connotations to a certain segment of the population which makes this usage both meaningful and correct.
Parent
Re:Linux Wars? (Score:5, Informative)
Also, TFA has absolutely no content on which to base its claims. It mentions 4 things, PulseAudio, CodecBuddy, Spins, and the Fedora theme. Ubuntu 8.04 will have PulseAudio; in fact, this is just another example of the usual relationship of Fedora and Ubuntu - Fedora is slightly more 'on the edge', Ubuntu is a little more stable - but still, at least in non-LTS versions, quite risk-taking. Regarding CodecBuddy, Ubuntu has this, and in fact had it before Fedora. Spins are fairly meaningless - a nice idea, but let's see some compelling implementation. And anyhow both Ubuntu and Fedora welcome 'spins' aka derivative versions; Ubuntu has its own Kubuntu/Edubuntu/etc. as well as the non-official Mint, etc.
Finally, the theme. Well, he's got me there, Fedora does win in that respect. I don't mind the Ubuntu brown, but they aren't doing something nice enough with it so far. However Ubuntu 8.04 will have a brand new theme with a lot of effort put into it, so here's hoping.
Returning to your point, in fact most of these examples prove it. Fedora led the way with PulseAudio; Ubuntu saw it was possible, and will now do it as well. They might even benefit from the code. Similarly, Ubuntu led the way with CodecBuddy-type things, which Fedora wisely adopted. Hopefully Fedora's nice theme will encourage Ubuntu to focus more on that. Thus, we have in effect excellent examples of how FOSS project spur each other to better and greater things.
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Re:Linux Wars? (Score:5, Informative)
Red Hat pays someone's salary to write codec buddy and yet 'ubuntu' comes out the better. Sounds like NetworkManager all over again. Red Hat pays to write the code the fanboys think ubuntu is the greatest thing ever....
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Re:Linux Wars? (Score:5, Insightful)
But lets not just up and declare that Ubuntu just steals credit. I don't think anyone is saying that Ubuntu wrote codec Buddy, but the features are similar enough.
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Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
The article links to a list of "things" that are in Fedora 8. What I find the most interesting is the removal of PAM for authentication and using dBus instead.
I can hardly wait for it to be refined a bit and rolled into Ubuntu.
I have been using Linux since 1999. Slackware, Redhat, Mandrake, PCLinux, Knoppix, Mepis, Gentoo, and 10 or 15 others. I used to have 2 extr
Re:Linux Wars? (Score:5, Insightful)
That's pretty much what I came in here to say.
Why does the most recent Fedora seem so competitive to Ubuntu? Well probably because they're pulling their updates from a lot of the same places.
But if you want to imagine the two groups fighting it out, go right ahead. Insofar as they are competing, there's only one possible winner: us. Each group is trying to improve Linux more, each will feed off of the other's improvements, and the end result will be a better FOSS operating system that will be accessible to all of us.
Good luck to both of them.
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Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
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If there was at least a baseline common platform for things like apps, drivers, config panels, menu systems, look and feel etc,
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If there was at least a baseline common platform for things like apps, drivers, config panels, menu systems, look and feel
apps - GNOME or KDE. And you can also have BOTH
drivers - On Linux distros, Linux drivers are the only possibility. No choice there really.
config panels - GNOME or KDE
menu systems - GNOME or KDE
look and feel - GNOME or KDE
When it comes to "Windows replacement" or "Mac replacement" technologies, there is really only two choices currently: GNOME or KDE.
And that is a good thing, as they keep each other on their toes. Now, there are an infinite number of choices, if you
Ask not which linux is best (Score:3, Interesting)
The would be linux n00b would be better off asking 'which distribution is most popular' rather than 'which distribution is best', then going with the most popular. Chances are that's the major distribution which is easiest to use and which has a large user base (lots of online help/forums if needed). Asking 'which is best' just opens the can of worms you refer to regarding choice, as some who answer will advocate for whatever it is they like, while others will answer fairly, if unhelpfully, 'there is no b
Re:Linux Wars? It's a matter of choice! (Score:5, Insightful)
I personally don't like this kind of news fomenting wars between opensource projects.
Parent
Please be serious (Score:5, Insightful)
The Ubuntu zealots are also very vocal and defend the Debian apt system from which Ubuntu gets its package manager. Has yum improved that much to match apt? I doubt.
Re:Please be serious (Score:4, Interesting)
First off, i've been using apt for Redhat since redhat 6 release
Since version 7 fedora, i've been starting to use yum irregullary and after upgrading to fc8 and the latest yum, i've been a really happy camper with it.
- Latest yum works much faster than previous versions.
- Configurability is much better with yum than with apt. 3rd party plugins can do really wonders.
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yum Is Solid (Score:5, Insightful)
The Ubuntu zealots are also very vocal and defend the Debian apt system from which Ubuntu gets its package manager. Has yum improved that much to match apt? I doubt.
Beyond this, I really don't see why Ubuntu or Fedora need to "beat" each other. We should be celebrating the difference in strengths and the choice. I'm never convinced by fanboys on any side who think everyone needs to their favorite distro.
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Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
This is the under statement of the year
Re:Please be serious (Score:5, Informative)
That's not a fact, it's a characterization. It's not a particularly good one, either. Stability is, in fact, important to the Fedora developers, because they're users too. Slashdot did an interview [slashdot.org] with Max Spevack, the Fedora Project leader a while back. His answers, particularly to question #8, are relevant to your assertion.
Quoted: Fedora is the best of what works today. RHEL is the best of what will work for the next seven years.
Fedora isn't going to be the latest beta of stuff that doesn't work. The people who tell you that are advancing a political agenda.
Has yum improved that much to match apt?
It's likely that you know a great deal more than I do about apt, so you should correct me if I'm wrong about this:
While yum is slower than apt to resolve dependencies, I think it's a much more useful tool. apt can install a package if you know its name. Yum can install a local package, and get its dependencies. It can also install a package based on its name, a virtual capability, an actual capability (library name or executable), or a file provided by the package (by path).
Yes, yum is a little slow, but in exchange it is capable of better doing what I want it to, as a user. I think it's better than apt. As a Fedora user, I have the option to use either one, and I stick with yum.
Parent
Re:Please be serious (Score:4, Interesting)
Some of us prefer make.
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Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Issues with the article already. (Score:4, Insightful)
Posting from an Ubuntu 64 workstation, running several Debian Etch VPS containers in VMWare Server, and a couple of dedicated Debian and FreeBSD boxes on this LAN.
Re:Issues with the article already. (Score:5, Funny)
Are you like, totally serious? You've set that all up by yourself. OMG OMG OMG!!! Please, like, tell us your opinion on FC8 vs. Ubuntu. Pleeeeeasssseeee ;)
(I so can't wait to tell my friends that I actually talked to you! OMG OMG OMG... )
Parent
fedora is an upgrade treadmill (Score:5, Funny)
Minor correction. (Score:3, Informative)
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While my professor sw
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Threat?... (Score:4, Interesting)
I object to the word "threat". (Score:5, Insightful)
They are the Same (Score:5, Insightful)
There is no "war" between distros. I can run Firefox on any Linux distro. Same goes for Amarok, K3B, OpenOffice, Thunderbird, etc...
Get over it.
Ubuntu is more than just what's on the disc (Score:5, Interesting)
Ubuntu nailed the winning formula for desktop Linux, just like Red Hat seems to have nailed the winning formula for enterprise Linux. I wouldn't use either one in the other's place.
Some tactics just don't apply to... (Score:3, Interesting)
Media tactic, competitive tactics, licensing manipulation tactics, etc..
As both projects are open source, as are many others, they all can use the best of any of these.
But in open source it all really comes down to a sum of humanities produced value.
Selecting "ubuntu" as a lable for a linux distribution is in recognition of this.
And of course it doesn't make Ubuntu the best by just naming it this way, but it does point out a recognition of what makes things "best".
There are so many tactic that work outside of open source, but open source is doesn't fix in supporting those tactics.
However, because of this non-fit, you can always identify an outsiders attempt to apply such tactics.
The different distributions of linux, the value is no so much in competition of the same general user system but in specialization.
Its good we have an overall target of improving desktop and server systems, but the time has come when this flushes out that such system are similiar enough that there is little difference if any thing more than a distro name.
When the magazine industry first started there was a target of general interest publication and at some point when this was filled competition lead to the beginnings of specialization. Today we have magazines that specialize in more things that only a few are aware of them all. The same is beginning to happen with open source OS packages. Multimedia distros like dynebolic, artistx, studio64 etc.. and there are others. What the specialization provides is better integration of specialized packages, kernel tuning, etc...
Specialization is where open source competition is and also where there are fewer competing, if more than one.
Where is the difference between Ubuntu and Fedora? (Score:4, Interesting)
I mean what noticeable difference is there?
In the end, what lasting advantage can one have over the other if they both have access to the same range of open source components?
I have used the latest Fedora 8 and Ubuntu and I can't get excited about either of them. Pulseaudio was and is an utter pain in the neck to get working with Enemy Territory, Skype and Firefox all needing different workarounds and what is so astounding about it from a user's point of view? After the effort, stuff works like it did except that Youtube videos now randomly cause Firefox to crash.
There's nothing happening in user interfaces - they are stagnating and Fedora 6,7,8 and Gutsy Gibbon all seem the same to me from that point of view. The new 3D effects cause reliability problems and do only a little bit more than nothing for usability.
There's a lot of "lets-learn-programming-by-implementing-what-others-have-done-before" going on but not a lot of innovation.
Ubuntu Vs Fedora (Score:3, Interesting)
Divide and Conquer. (Score:5, Insightful)
Not every darned scenario in the world must resolve to some sort of Darwinian competition. Sometimes people just like to create at the peek of their powers for the sheer joy of creating something amazing, and not because they feel the need to destroy the competition. Ask the best painters, musicians and writers if their best work came about because they felt threatened --or if they felt in love with their medium and with the world in general. --Or rather, if you are a coder, how was the best code you ever wrote generated? Were you wearing your Nikes or were you just obsessively having fun trying to solve a problem?
The ideas of Darwinism and Competition certainly hold validity, but they are also two of the most highly abused concepts ever invented. Sheesh, the whole 'final solution' thing was based on Darwin. Talk about an abuse of concept!
-FL
Truly awful article - reviewed before installation (Score:5, Insightful)
Now this is a truly awful article. The article isn't a review of Fedora 8. It's someone blithering that they're going to do a review of Fedora 8. This is a review of the press release.
The author has trouble with English, HTML, and the concept of free software. If you think the text is painful, try "view source". The page was apparently generated with Microsoft FrontPage, then hacked by hand. Badly. There's code from at least five sources, some of it in Visual Basic.
Notice the link right after the article: "Click here for prices on Linux distributions".
Just switched from Fedore to Ubuntu (Score:3, Informative)
The thing I like about Ubuntu is that much of the software I had to hand-compile under Fedora is available with full functionality via apt-get on Ubuntu. Very nice. I don't know if Fedora 8 fixed this annoyance because I made the switch as F8 was released.
Ultimately, I muck about with the distro so much it doesn't really matter to me all that much anymore where it comes from.
One pet peeve for both Ubuntu and Fedora is the lack of support for having multiple monitors in a way that is easily configurable. I had to muck about directly with xorg.conf on Ubuntu as much as I had to do under Fedora to get all 3 of my monitors to come up properly! Come on, guys! This is a no-brainer on Windows and the Mac. Why is this still a pain under Linux???
Overall, I like Ubuntu a bit better than Fedora at this point -- though another pet peeve is that their default desktop is Gnome and not KDE. A minor nit, but one I find pestering.
There is a difference (Score:3, Interesting)
Since installation is similar (though the Ubuntu "live" CD allows for better hardware driver validation), the first thing to compare is the gui package front-ends. Both are good but Synaptic is better than Yumex, far better in actual use. It is intuitive for those who are not Linux gurus where Yumex is not. Deb packages also tend to have fewer dependencies and there are more of them. Firefox3 for example, was available to Ubuntu users first.
Second most important item is the kernel, mainly the wireless drivers. Ubuntu wins here, particularly on laptops and older hardware. Example: adding a wep key. Click and paste in Ubuntu where it's easier to edit the poorly documented text files in Fedora.
One of my pet peeves is default security. Run 'netstat -anp' on a newly installed RH box and you'll be shocked to see how much is running and listening for network connections. Big difference from Ubuntu where you will likely see a much smaller process table and only ports 22 (ssh) and 68 (dhcp) open to the world.
Otherwise both have their high and low points. The big downer is the stuff that gets "deprecated" and made incompatible with previous release for no good reason. This is mostly GNU's fault to be sure. Sometimes I think they break stuff just to differentiate Linux from Unix. I really dislike Linux upgrades because so much breaks, far more than in a BSD, IBM, and Sun OS upgrades. Rewriting shell scripts to account for parameter differences that have no evident rational gets old after the 4th or 5th time (say "nslookup has been deprecated" three times fast, but wait, now it's been un-deprecated, ah but the output format has been changed, again...). But I digress, and am grateful to all FOSS coders, especially those who don't make work difficult for those of us who install, upgrade, and manage their systems.
Not really sure why RedHat is allowing its distribution to fall so far behind. I suppose they're fat and happy to get paid for RHEL support, RHEL bugfixes, and RHEL repos. Like SCO before them, IMO, it's a short-term business model that won't hold up to Debian's community process much longer.
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Who cares? (Score:5, Insightful)
It's weird that having worked with packages, you confuse the package format (RPM/DEB) with the package manager (APT/YUM). The main reason why ubuntu rocks is APT, not the
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Umm, no. (Score:4, Insightful)
Fedora rpms are gpg signed a vastly more secure option than md5/sha1. Even the public keys for verifying the packages are managed by yum/rpm. AFAIK RH/Fedora used package signing long before Debian did.
Why? Probably because they abandoned me and I just don't expect much. Also *BEEP* redhat. I mean that very sincerely.
Get over it; how on earth did you expect RH to survive by selling updates for 40 dollars a year (or whatever the RH update program used to cost.) And they never abandonend you, they just changed their Linux distro from being a corporate product to a community product with free updates. Yes the transition sucked but it was necessary, and it has turned out to be a benefit for users like me who prefer KDE to the Gnome desktop that the user community has more influence on the distro.
RH has always been one of the most active Linux supporters, pouring both money and manpower in projects like ext3, gcc, lvm, selinux and the kernel itself, projects that benefits every Linux distro out there. The money for all these software engineers comes from the corporations that buy the expensive support contracts and licenses.
RH should also get some respect from the fact that they always, without wavering, have been avid gpl/FLOSS supporters.
--
Regards
Parent
Re:Umm, no. (Score:4, Interesting)
Parent
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And so is DEB! In the end, isn't that all that matters?
Re:Wake me up.... (Score:5, Informative)
Seriously. How many redhat releases there where ? 9 majors if i remember right and few
And you say that support has gone worse because "they dont want to support the serious users"..
So, honest question, could you actually give some real facts how things are worse now than they where ?
Parent
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Why is parent "Flamebait?" (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
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Seriously, what the hell are these Linux vendors thinking? It's not 1994, we don't need another laggy, buggy, soundcard hogging sound server! The first thing I do when installing a new distribution is make sure that both ESD and Arts will never run.
ALSA supports sound devices with hardware mixing and it supports transparent software mixing for devices without. All this stupid sound server will do is make it more difficult to get sound working properly with 3rd party applications. My favorite quote is f