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Microsoft Claims Patent On Elements of Embedded Linux?

Posted by Zonk on Fri Nov 16, 2007 05:24 PM
from the strange-bedfellows dept.
Preedit writes "An InformationWeek story points out a recent deal between Microsoft and Japanese printer maker Kyocera Mita. Under the agreement, Kyocera obtained from Microsoft a license to patents used in 'certain Linux-based embedded technologies.' The question the author asks is why Kyocera needs a patent license from Microsoft to develop its embedded Linux products."
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  • Simple (Score:5, Funny)

    by eclectro (227083) on Friday November 16 2007, @05:28PM (#21384635)
    Agree to the deal or get a chair in your face.
    • Re:Simple (Score:5, Funny)

      by Tackhead (54550) on Friday November 16 2007, @05:37PM (#21384731)
      > Agree to the deal or get a chair in your face.

      Close, but those aren't the right laws. Here are laws.

      MONKEYDOME!

      0) Who run Microtown? STEVIE BALLMER RUN MICROTOWN!
      1) Two competitors enter, ONE MONOPOLIST LEAVES!
      2) Agree to the deal, or YOUR IP WE'LL STEAL!
      3) Laissez-faire? FACE THE CHAIR!

    • Re:Simple (Score:5, Funny)

      by ozmanjusri (601766) <(aussie_bob) (at) (hotmail.com)> on Friday November 16 2007, @08:00PM (#21385983) Journal
      ...or get a chair in your face.

      Worse than that.

      "We believe that intellectual property licensing is an empowering way to bring innovation to the IT ecosystem," said David Kaefer, general manager of Intellectual Property and Licensing at Microsoft.
      "Empowering way to bring innovation to the IT ecosystem"??? I've been read Vogon poetry that was less nauseating than that line.
  • Useless Article... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by gillbates (106458) on Friday November 16 2007, @05:29PM (#21384639) Homepage Journal

    I used to be an embedded Linux developer.

    However, I could more thoughtfully comment on this if the article revealed just what patents Microsoft believes Kyocera to be violating. It could have nothing to do with Linux; moreover, it could very well be a patent on some method of printing which is specific to the Kyocera hardware and just happens to be implemented as a Linux driver.

    Looks more like FUD against Linux than anything else.

    • We know Microsoft has some patents involving anti-aliasing and other font rendering stuff. I would be more interested if they convinced an embedded developer, who wasn't using a GUI or printing or SMB.
      • We know Microsoft has some patents involving anti-aliasing and other font rendering stuff.

        We also know that UCLA has recently sued over the non-licensed usage of it's patents by a number of software technology firms, including Microsoft.

        All your stolen Microsoft patents are belong to Cali!
    • by Mrs. Grundy (680212) on Friday November 16 2007, @05:36PM (#21384719) Homepage
      Absolutely,

      From the article:

      Is it adding proprietary Microsoft technology on top of embedded Linux?
      Could be...

      Hard to know what that means--it's deliberately vague.

      Now that's some reporting. There is really nothing to see here.
      • by nametaken (610866) on Saturday November 17 2007, @01:50AM (#21387849)

        And there probably never will be. If you've ever contacted MS IP Licensing you know that you can't even discuss licensing their technologies until after you're under NDA.
        • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

          For all its faults, Windows has supported the standard IPP (Internet Printing Protocol) for a long time. I've never needed to use Samba as a printer sharer, although it can still be convenient for network discovery. Sure, Windows' IPP still has catches like only allowing raw printing, but hey, that's the kind of shit you come to expect.
    • Gil, Babe... are you a /. poster or not. Just make up any facts that you need to post an opinion ;-)
    • by davidsyes (765062) on Friday November 16 2007, @06:26PM (#21385189) Homepage Journal
      (I keisseikki will mod me troll or flamebait, but...)

      Based on the recent news of a major Korean company being under investigation for corruption/et cetera (this isn't localized to Korea, just mentioning it in proximity to this article), I will go on a limb and say microsoft is just wheeling and dealing and paying some exec to "go along with the script":

      "We'll claim you're violating one or more of our patents; doesn't matter which ones, if they're pending or not; doesn't matter if later the USPTO tells us we're full of it; doesn't matter if prior art exists. WE rule this world, and if you play by our terms, Sonsaengnim, you'll make a buttload of money."

      That's the business world for you.
  • by compumike (454538) on Friday November 16 2007, @05:30PM (#21384653) Homepage
    We know that Microsoft claims to hold patents that Linux users are infringing... but they won't tell us which ones. What's new?

    So there are two possibilities: either they've got a specific one or two that they're really able to show Kyocera that are troublesome, or they've just got this massive library of "probable" ones that Kyocera decided to give in to. What would be more interesting to know is who approached who about the deal. What does it permit? What did that cost?

    Anyway, this is at the stage where it isn't using patent law, but is just using corporate risk expectations. Very dangerous... which is why MSFT doesn't want to show their hand.

    Software patent lifetimes should probably get quite a bit shorter, too...

    --
    Educational microcontroller kits for the digital generation. [nerdkits.com]
    • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

      Or they just cross-licensed some proprietary stuff and threw in the 'linux' word for fun. Kyocera has been working with MS since at least the TRS Model 100 days - they built the hardware, MS supplied the software and that was - what - 25 years ago?
    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      Yes, but when does a "patent" become a hindrance to society by stifling innovation and competition? All that Microsoft has done is made a non-specific claim about owning patents and companies that can't pay the toll are afraid to move forward because they might end up sued into non-existence.

      That's called a back-door monopoly... and it hurts us, the marketplace, and the implementation of the benefits of technology we should all enjoy.
      • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

        Yes, but when does a "patent" become a hindrance to society by stifling innovation and competition? All that Microsoft has done is made a non-specific claim about owning patents and companies that can't pay the toll are afraid to move forward because they might end up sued into non-existence.

        That's called a back-door monopoly... and it hurts us, the marketplace, and the implementation of the benefits of technology we should all enjoy.

        It doesn't really say anything. Its like a major news story about an explosion in an animal shelter with the tag line "authorities do not suspect terrorist involvement" Spices up the story a little, but adds no actual information.

        There are three distinct and unrelated aspects to the story.

        1) Microsoft and Kyocera signed a cross licence agreement.

        Common business practice. Nothing suspicious. The only relevant bit.

        2) Kyocera uses Linux in some of it's products.

        Again nothing unusual, and nothing suspicious. M

    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      Or maybe the agreement invoves certain benefits for the Korean firm from MS (money, etc), in exchange for providing the world with this PR stunt, that would complete their threat on linux alleged infringement on MS's IP...
    • Software patent lifetimes should probably get quite a bit shorter, too...

      Software patents shouldn't exist at all, neither should patents for business methods. Only non obvious hardware implementations and unique solutions not already published should be patented.

      Falcon
  • It's a trap! (Score:4, Insightful)

    by cromar (1103585) on Friday November 16 2007, @05:31PM (#21384661)
    But seriously, it seems that Microsoft is going to keep after Linux until it has it surrounded on all sides. Then I suppose they'll get to a lawsuit. And, while Linux will be found to be free of MS patents, it will end up costing Microsoft's enemies so much to defend Linux that they will be forced into oblivion...
    • But seriously, it seems that Microsoft is going to keep after Linux until it has it surrounded on all sides. Then I suppose they'll get to a lawsuit. And, while Linux will be found to be free of MS patents, it will end up costing Microsoft's enemies so much to defend Linux that they will be forced into oblivion...
      Just like SCO/Microsoft did to IBM and Novell? Yes...
      • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

        Novell and IBM had deeper pockets than SCO. Microsoft infused enough cash to keep SCO going for awhile.
  • Japanese culture? (Score:4, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 16 2007, @05:31PM (#21384665)
    My uncle works in IT for a Japanese company of some size. He often speaks of the Japanese management as if this were still the eighties and sometimes its almost racist,so I apologize for him if this is insulting to anyone so take this with a heaping dose of salt.

    He thinks that it goes against the Japanese culture to use a technology without paying for it, that it shows disrespect to not pay for software licenses. He is not even allowed to consider using Linux or any other OSS for that matter.
    • In fact, most distros prefer it.
    • Re:Japanese culture? (Score:5, Interesting)

      by DragonWriter (970822) on Friday November 16 2007, @06:26PM (#21385193)

      He thinks that it goes against the Japanese culture to use a technology without paying for it, that it shows disrespect to not pay for software licenses. He is not even allowed to consider using Linux or any other OSS for that matter.


      Many companies I've known won't use software if they aren't paying someone for support and a license (and, often, particular support guarantees and/or performance warranties.) I don't know anything about Japanese culture, but in business the need to have some else that's feet can be held to the fire if something goes wrong is a big deal.

      Of course, you can get paid support (and sometimes licensing, when the software is under a dual OSS/commercial licensing model) for most OSS you might want to adopt in a business environment, so neither cultural nor business-based reluctance to use software without paying for it should be a major barrier to OSS adoption.
    • Re:Japanese culture? (Score:5, Informative)

      by tbird20d (600059) on Friday November 16 2007, @06:43PM (#21385351)
      I work for Sony, putting Linux into many different Sony products. I also lead the CE Linux Forum, which has a number of large of members from Japan. I can assure you that Linux is used in Japan in droves, and that the range of practices for obtaining Linux, from paying a vendor to downloading directly from kernel.org, is as broad there as anywhere else in the world.
  • by Arabani (1127547) on Friday November 16 2007, @05:32PM (#21384671)
    Kyocera Mita appears to be a "small" company - revenues for the parent corporation (Mita is their printer division, it appears) were a little shy of $3 billion in 2006, while Epson had revenues of $12.7 billion last year. Granted, I'm not sure how valid this comparison is, but if this disparity is typical, it could very well be that Kyocera decided it would be safer to play Microsoft's game than to potentially face a court battle they would have trouble fighting.
  • They Don't. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by TheRaven64 (641858) on Friday November 16 2007, @05:33PM (#21384675) Homepage Journal
    The GPL states that they may only distribute the code if they accompany it with the rights for any derivatives to use any patents it infringes. If they discover that they infringe some patents in Linux then they must stop distributing Linux until they have obtained a license to the patents that is compatible with the GPL (which means that anyone who is in the transitive closure of recipients of the code from them also gains the license). In summary, if they have obtained a license from Microsoft then either they are in violation of the GPL or no one else needs to obtain such a license and Microsoft's FUD evaporates in a puff of logic.
    • That puff was logic?
      Damnit! I thought it was Opium. :-(
      • Re:They Don't. (Score:4, Interesting)

        by pipatron (966506) <pipatron@gmail.com> on Friday November 16 2007, @05:49PM (#21384863) Homepage

        The GPL has been proven to be unenforcable

        Show us the the source of this statment, or stuh teh fkuc up and go back to the caves of Redmond.

      • Yes and what does this have to do with anything? The GPL has been proven to be unenforcable
        Darl? Is that you? At any rate, even in the incredibly unlikely scenario that it was unenforcable/unconstitutional/unconciable, it would revert to the default under the law, which means no right to distribute at all. And if you bring up the heavy drug-incuced logic SCO claimed that it would somehow be converted to public domain code, I'll laugh at you a second time.
  • Not just fud... (Score:4, Interesting)

    by tqft (619476) <ianburrows_au@yah[ ]com ['oo.' in gap]> on Friday November 16 2007, @05:39PM (#21384747) Homepage Journal
    I think it is more than fud...

    By binding potential developers (and we will may never see what is in the agreement in total) to MS it may make it a lot harder for them to deliver products that work with linux.

    Now everytime they go to release a driver legal are going to have to have a good hard look at driver and the MS agreement.

    How long before it gets to be too much hard work and they not bother?

    "developers, developers, developers" is still true. Without delivery of new products any OS will die. Kyocera Mita make stuff people want to use in business settings - printer/fax machines and stuff like that.
  • by petes_PoV (912422) on Friday November 16 2007, @05:47PM (#21384831)
    It looks like Kyocera don't recognise a bluff when they see one.

    Maye we should all get in touch with them and say that we might own patents that they may be infringing. Just to be sure, they need to sign this licensing agreement and pay $xxxx for an assurance that we won't sue them in the future.

    This seems to be just what MS have done, but being bigger and scarier than we are, they can get a way with it.

  • by NullProg (70833) on Friday November 16 2007, @05:48PM (#21384835) Homepage Journal
    What does Kyocera get? The right to use patented Microsoft technology in its printers, copiers and "certain Linux-based embedded devices."

    Maybe Kyocera just licensed Fonts/ODBC or some other mundane MS technology to use in their products. Food for thought.

    Enjoy,
    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      I think you have hit the nail on the head there. I'd bet that the technology under consideration is Microsoft's fonts (or perhaps the mechanism for using the associated rendering hints).
      • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

        Probably the claims MS is making in all of these cases derive from Samba not the linux kernel itself. Samba may not violate MS copyright because it is developed independently, but in certain legal jurisdictions one could at least argue that MS intellectual property is involved.

        Like MS or not Samba is used in order to inter-operate with Windows and MS might actually have some legitimate claims.


        I've heard the Samba IP argument before. It doesn't hold water (IANAL). Windows/DOS networking (Netbios/SMB) was bo
  • What does Kyocera get? The right to use patented Microsoft technology in its printers, copiers and "certain Linux-based embedded devices."

    This seems to say that Kyocera will get it's ass in a sling putting Microsoft crap into an embedded linux cellphone or something. This is hardly what the article title seems to be suggesting. In fact, tfa seems to suggest the M$ is allowing certain linux embedded devices to employ it's IP. I hate M$ just as much as the next linux geek, but I call bullshit whichever sid
  • getting their printer drivers "certified" on Vista...
  • I find this to be rather ridiculous! Did they buy a license to use "all" microsoft patents? Without since explicitly defined range of identified patents, then they didn't explicitly buy anything at all. Microsoft must have identified which patents, in particular, they feel Linux is violating or else a Japanese company wouldn't have been persuaded to buy it. It goes against everything I know of Japanese personality to buy anything "nebulous." If they bought "protection" from microsoft, I'd be inclined t
  • Seems to me, Kyocera needs to release the added "MS IP" code they are using as required by the GPL ASAP!
    If the Linux source code Kyocera is using is really containing "IP" from Microsoft, we should be able to see what the heck Kyocera licensed.
  • I'm guessing this wasn't the core of what Kyocera needed. It's just as likely MSFT threw it in there as a FUD grenade target of poopertunity. An IP stink bomb.

    This whole thing is just so...seedy. This is not how a supposedly world class company acts. It would be far more effective if they fielded high quality products at reasonable prices. Or is that a quaint concept nowadays?

    Of course, with telcos spying on Americans, banks and credit card companies nickel and diming customers to death at will and

  • I'd give my eye teeth to know whether the same kind of effort Microsoft put forth unsuccessfully in Nigeria worked in the more understated environment of the Japanese corporate world. I doubt anything will ever be proven, but watch out for a quid pro quo down the road somewhere.
  • by westlake (615356) on Friday November 16 2007, @06:17PM (#21385123)
    Under the deal, Microsoft gets to add patented Kyocera Mita technology to its Windows and Office products. What does Kyocera get? The right to use patented Microsoft technology in its printers, copiers and "certain Linux-based embedded devices."

    Kyocera [kyocera.com] makes everything from ball-point pens to machine tools.

    Kyocera is interested in things like data security in printing. Kyocera Mita America's Data Security Kit Offers Critical Data Protection of Stored Data on Color Multifunctional Products [kyoceramita.com] [November 14, 2007]

    Microsoft is also interested in things like data security in printing.

    Tell me why the Geek trots out his paranoia every time two companies that compliment each other sign a cross-licensing agreement.

  • by mr_mischief (456295) on Friday November 16 2007, @06:47PM (#21385377) Journal
    it only says they're gaining the right to use Microsoft IP in embedded Linux devices. It doesn't say they were using the property already or that there was any infringement. Kyocera could make this deal and start using Microsoft IP that they were not using beforehand and Microsoft could word it exactly the same way. Kyocera could gain the permission to use Microsoft tech combined with Linux and still not plan on using it, and Microsoft could still word it the same way.
  • by nurb432 (527695) on Friday November 16 2007, @07:16PM (#21385625) Homepage Journal
    If they can tie up enough hardware and software distributors and make it difficult to release anything commercially for linux, it will help kill it off or at least reduce it back down to a mere hobby and no longer a threat.

    Once the next generation of hardware comes out, and you cant get a driver as its so tied up in the legal world that it can never escape, what will you have left to run? Why, officially endorsed Microsoft software and hardware of course.

    It wont happen today, or tomorrow, but they have the time and money to think *really* long term ( like in decades ) on this
  • Probably XPS (Score:4, Informative)

    by AirLace (86148) on Friday November 16 2007, @08:05PM (#21386025)
    This is likely to be about XPS, the Microsoft XML Paper Specification, Microsoft's PS/PDF successor. I'd guess that Kyocera has written an XPS implementation for Linux, and wants to deploy it to support uses printing directly from XPS-enabled software. An open source XPS implementation was written within a few weeks of the release of the XPS spec -- maybe they're even just shipping that: http://www.ndesk.org/Xps [ndesk.org]

    The spec is freely available, but the introductory paragraphs in the spec suggest that implementing it without licenses is not permitted.
    • by LWATCDR (28044) on Friday November 16 2007, @06:00PM (#21384975) Homepage Journal
      "...started when Bill Gates ported BASIC."
      He didn't port basic. He wrote a Basic interpreter for the 8080!
      I am not a Microsoft fan. In fact I am a Linux user but give me a break.
      If Bill Gates ported basic then the Samba team ported Microsoft networking and the Mysql team ported SQL!
      Porting means you have the source code to a program and you get it to run on a new cpu. Gates, with some help wrote a Basic interpreter for a tiny cpu in assembly. He WROTE a version basic for the 8080. He didn't port it.