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Where Does Linux Go From Here?
Posted by
ScuttleMonkey
on Mon Oct 22, 2007 11:42 AM
from the many-different-flavors-of-kool-aid-to-drink dept.
from the many-different-flavors-of-kool-aid-to-drink dept.
With the success that Linux is currently enjoying Linux.com (also owned by SourceForge, Inc) asks the question, where do we go from here? With such a high level of success and greater corporate participation (on both the consumer and provider fronts) will the spirit of freedom and idealism remain true or will the ever-present corporate bottom line eventually take over? "Linux is surrounded by proprietary IT firms. Some of them view Linux as a profit maker, others as a threat to their profits. Both sides represent a challenge for Linux in holding to its ideals of freedom and openess. The first large IT firm to really grok Linux was IBM. It has a long and mutually beneficial association with Linux, Apache, and other FOSS projects. The company has learned the language and the mores of the FOSS world, and has made significant code contributions as part of those projects along the way."
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SourceForce? Come on... (Score:4, Funny)
Come on editors. SourceForce? I was gonna let the missing comma between 'enjoying' and 'Linux.com' slide, but jeez, this is so blatantly wrong.
This is not the typo you are looking for.. (Score:4, Funny)
Parent
Re:SourceForce? Come on... (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re:More patting ourselves on the back!! (Score:4, Informative)
Lunix is a unix-like OS for the C-64. There's probably about 15 or 20 people worldwide who use it.
Parent
Take over? (Score:5, Insightful)
will the spirit of freedom and idealism remain true or will the ever-present corporate bottom line eventually take over?
How much do we have to worry that something will "take Linux over"? No matter what corporations do, they'll always have to release the source code, which means people can always fork it. Wasn't that the point?
Re:Take over? (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes and yes (it's already happened). The neat thing is both can happen without being mutually exclusive. Such is the beauty of FOSS. Is Linux suited for big-iron, misssion critical enterprise stuff backed and supported by heavyweights like IBM, Sun, etc? Yup. Can it be tinkered with on cheap commodity hardware for "backyard" projects and hobbyist programming? Yup. And everything else in between.
Parent
Re:Take over? (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Same old, same old. (Score:4, Funny)
Parent
Pretty much. (Score:4, Insightful)
#1. Develop your own system, keep it proprietary and hope that Microsoft doesn't see enough value in taking it from you.
#2. Support Microsoft's system and hope you can:
2a. compete with everyone else doing the same
2b. make enough profit to survive, but not enough so that Microsoft moves into the market itself.
#3. Go Open Source / Free Software and try to get your system enough marketshare that you can turn a profit, somehow.
#4. Give up on the computer industry and close your shop.
Sun has realized that #3 is the only option short of just giving up. At least they have something marketable - their expertise in the systems that they designed and that they built.
Parent
Other options (Score:4, Interesting)
#6. Develop for something other then the x86 desktop, ie. cell phones, portable game devices, game consoles, etc.
On my own, I've tried #6 and #5. I've made a little money on #5 and no money at all on #6. Still, gotta keep trying or just accept working for the man.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
The problem is that's not a business. Who, in their right mind, would devote thousands of development hours cobbling something together, then cast it into the wind where basement developers use "what they want, and [get] rid of what they don't?"
Ok, well even if we all agreed with you, that would be a reason why Microsoft wouldn't make their own version of Linux. However, my point was that *if* Microsoft were to make a version of Linux, the Linux community would have nothing to fear from that. If Microso
Re:Same old, same old. (Score:5, Interesting)
Hmm, let's see...
And of course the usual suspects like Sun and IBM.
Free Software can most definitely be an important part of a business strategy. For example, the company I work for uses it to leverage testing resources of the community. We also get bug fixes back from the community. We think it makes a lot of sense for a large community to share core development responsibility, the sort of stuff you find in university textbooks that is not proprietary in any way.
In the future, companies aren't going to make money selling operating systems, word processors or basic compiler implementations. They're going to make money modifying the OS to run well on custom hardware, selling plugins to do fancy document formatting and developing new compiler optimizations that make all of this run well on their proprietary computer system.
Parent
Insidious Allusion? (Score:3, Funny)
Linux goes where Ferrari went! (Score:3, Interesting)
Linux is a Ferrari. It requires a real driver.
Mac is like a Toyota. A good, solid vehicle. Dependable and long lasting. Just don't expect to do any internal work on it like my dad used to do when I was a kid.
Windoze is like a Ford Pinto. It'll get you to work and back home again, just don't expect it to have any real power.
The Linux community must get away from trying to be Ford or GM (Genetically Modified?). Linux offers POWER! No apologies POWER! It ain't for your gran'ma.
Re:Linux goes where Ferrari went! (Score:5, Funny)
Very accurate. It will get you to work and back home, without any real power...but you forgot to mention that it is perfectly normal for it to sometimes explode.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
What do you mean, no real power? Did you see the size of that fireball?
i know (Score:5, Funny)
Hot air rises (Score:4, Insightful)
Now I know ideally we should all be intelligent enough to be able to operate Linux without screwing something up, and if we do be able to fix it. But the layman is not and will not have our technical ability, however simple the task may be. Since Linux does not have technical support often in the same way Apple and Microsoft do, users are driven away for fear of an inoperable computer. They would rather have a computer that works 50% of the time than 25% of the time. As far as business use for Linux, obviously they have the resources to be able to have any problems fixed and prevented, but personal users can not do that.
As far as games, Tux Racer does not cut it. Email and web browsing of course are workhorse reasons for having a PC, but you can do that on your cell phone nowadays. Honestly, game development seems to be in a bit of a catch 22 in the same way that driver support is a problem. Investors need to see profitability in the market, so they want to see market demand. However market demand isn't rising because there isn't enough of a reason to switch to Linux when you can't play the hottest new games on it. Of course games do get ported, however initial release of games for Linux I think is vital to bring the average computer user into the fold of open source.
Just my two cents.
Re:Hot air rises (Score:4, Insightful)
In a lot of cases, Linux distributions don't have 100% of what Windows can do. If someone has a choice between a Linux distribution that does 90% (and 20% of other stuff) verses 100% of what they're used to and likely want. They'll likely choose Windows -- Unless they had to shell out money to get Windows.
Usually when people have to shell out of money, they become more willing to live with compromises in certain areas that the alternative isn't good at.
Now, while you may say that "Windows isn't free". Everyone and I mean, everyone has a friend who has a friend which can get a copy of for free.
Additionally, because when you goto a computer shop and purchase a computer, you're not told "If you want Microsoft Windows, you'll need to pay 100USD extra (or whatever the price is)" verses the basic install of some free distribution.
If there was a lot less piracy a seven years ago, Linux seen as a option in stores. I would be pretty sure that Linux would of obtained a lot more development and would of passed Windows and OS X in functionality in all ways by now.
I think what is needed, is a better WGA anti-piracy technology.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
They don't do it because:
* The LiveCD can't possibly have drivers for all future video cards
* The LiveCD can't even guarantee the ability to read the host computer's HD to save the game. The HD could be encrypted or in a format it doesn't understand.
* The LiveCD can't possible guarantee it will have every game accessory the player may use during the game (like a voice chat program, or maybe a web browser), and if it did, it would have to be re-configured
Tagged psuedointellectualism (Score:3, Insightful)
Isn't it too early in the day (Score:5, Interesting)
There are several 'hobbies' that I partake of, and inevitably, in all of them, as someone is introduced to the hobby, they have great enthusiasm for it, try to re-invent the wheel, or loudly proclaim how great something is, despite it's aging status technologically.
Linux is proving it's point. IBM and others ARE contributing (to Linux and many other projects... Thank you IBM) but I think that the real point is that F/OSS is becoming popular, not *just* Linux. Where proprietary systems have been the bedrock of business applications, F/OSS is making strong inroads. LAMP anyone?
The problem is that you can't talk about how good it is without comparing it to Windows or other such products. THAT is the problem... comparing it. When you go to the hardware store to buy a hammer, do you notice if the head is round or fluted? Do you compare the steel quality of new mower blades before deciding on which to buy? A tool is a tool. Seldom, IF EVER, will you find yourself thinking "Oh noooes, I can't dig a hole with this shovel, it was not made by Acme"
Interoperability is the key. The interface between hammer and nail is a pretty open standard. The interface between dirt and shovel is a pretty open (if dirty) interface. The PROBLEM is not whether F/OSS and Linux is good enough.. it IS. The problem is that interface to content. The one remaining major hurdle is MS document formats. Once that interfacing/interoperability problem is solved, Dell will be making money shipping Linux configured desktop systems. The problem is as much user perception as it is anything else.
For about
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Inquiring minds want to know...
Or are you suggesting running the free Windows tools under Linux?
To working.... (Score:4, Insightful)
I know that's not what a lot of you want to hear. But it's the truth. I don't want to spend several days trying to get a 802.11g wifi card working. I don't want to have to use some install manager or try to figure out how to get some script to run from the terminal in order to install an application. I simply want to be able to click and launch it, and have it install. Sadly, driver & software installation hurdles plague Linux. (In fact, these were the same issues that plagued Linux when I tried it repeatedly in the late 90's early millenials.)
I will say, it's improved quite a bit. At least in video card support apparently. But the truth of the matter is, I'd take XP & OS X over Linux. And that's because I'm anti-Linux or don't support Linux. Far from it, I wouldn't have tried it for my wife's (non-critical use) machine. So please guys....focus on these issues. (And don't say "Linux isn't really for the masses." Because everyone else keeps trying to push it that way. And that is the slated goal of many.)
Best of luck all...
- The Saj
Re:To working.... (Score:5, Insightful)
2. Use the latest desktop-oriented distro.
3. Did I remember to say buy supported hardware?
There are always people trying to make non-supported hardware work on Linux, who are trying out various arcane command line incantations, alpha-quality reverse engineered drivers and hacks like ndiswrapper to make it work with Linux. If you do not want to be part of them, you must accept that said card will not work under Linux. No, you can't expect every piece of hardware, working as it might be in Windows, to also work in Linux.
Would duplicating Windows' method be any problem? Hell no, I see it every time I run "wine setup.exe". Linux has it's variation of that too, but I prefer the distro way. It's not like a distro is anything like a monopoly, consider it more like a megamart with a searchable index. Why you'd try to chase down random snippets of code to run *and* and the same time claim you want mainstream userfriendliness, well it just doesn't compute.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
When Linux works and e.g. OpenOfficer fulfill your needs, and you don't need any Windows-only software, it's awesome, like running a non-hardware dependent OS X that's free and with an incredible community. Using Linux don't even need to imply giving up on a great user interface anymore. I honestly think there's no match anymore either in Windo
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
ROTFLMAO, my bad...but dang that's funny. Yes, there should be a "not anti-linux..."
"Regardless, I'd like to see your proficiency on using Windows 95 or OSX 8. I'm sure everything was just so naturally intuitive when you walked into it, right?"
No, of course it wasn't. But it hasn't been since DOS/Windows 3x that I was constantly editing script files, and fussing to get just anything to work.
That said, I've only been using OS X for 5 months
Linux isn't done yet (Score:5, Insightful)
I love Linux as a concept: An open-source, free as in beer, free as in speech, tweakable operating system offered and supported by multiple vendors. But Linux as a reality is an hodge-podge of incomplete applications spread across multiple subtly-incompatible distributions.
Moments ago, I read the following thread on the Rapidsvn mailing list. Rapidsvn is a very nice front-end for the Subversion version control system. I've compiled it, made changes to it - it's quite nice. I like it especially since it works on Linux, Mac, and PC -- all three are OSs I use to some degree. So the following is not a dig on this particular project. It is one example of something that happens a million times every day:
(P.S. I chopped the thread for brevity to make my point)
at the command prompt. I get a lots of messages and finally:
checking for APR... not found
configure: error: APR is required. Try --with-apr-config.
I tried...[various things] but got the same error message. I installed all the available APR's for
listed listed as version 1.2.2-13.2
Any ideas how to install rapidsvn -- I really want a gui interface on
linux similar to tortoisesvn on windows.
[various responses about apr-config, apu-config, downloading pre-built binaries, etc. but no solution]
This is the Linux I know, and it is why I have Linux on that other partition so I can boot it up now and then and see what the state of Linux is. But so far, it's always stuff like this. The challenge with Linux isn't learning the UI or thinking differently or anything. It's just getting stuff installed and getting it to work properly. I've never gotten a Linux distro up to the productivity of either my Mac or my Windows PC. I've maybe gotten 80% of the way, but with 500% of the effort. It's just not worth it.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Your only "problem" is that since the development process if much more transparent you want to get the product be
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
I could only find a thread for this from google with one response, which the guy never replied to so I'm not sure what makes you think the given solution didn't work? Is there another thread? Feel free to let him know about the above repository.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Linux isn't done yet (Score:5, Insightful)
sudo apt-get install rapidsvn
Output of this command:
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree
Reading state information... Done
The following extra packages will be installed:
libsvncpp0c2a libwxbase2.6-0 libwxgtk2.6-0
Suggested packages:
libgnomeprintui2.2-0
The following NEW packages will be installed:
libsvncpp0c2a libwxbase2.6-0 libwxgtk2.6-0 rapidsvn
0 upgraded, 4 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
Need to get 3817kB of archives.
After unpacking 10.8MB of additional disk space will be used.
Do you want to continue [Y/n]? y
Get:1 http://us.archive.ubuntu.com/ [ubuntu.com] feisty/universe libsvncpp0c2a 0.9.4-1ubuntu3 [73.1kB]
Get:2 http://us.archive.ubuntu.com/ [ubuntu.com] feisty/universe libwxbase2.6-0 2.6.3.2.1.5ubuntu6 [567kB]
Get:3 http://us.archive.ubuntu.com/ [ubuntu.com] feisty/universe libwxgtk2.6-0 2.6.3.2.1.5ubuntu6 [2875kB]
Get:4 http://us.archive.ubuntu.com/ [ubuntu.com] feisty/universe rapidsvn 0.9.4-1ubuntu3 [303kB]
Fetched 3817kB in 16s (237kB/s)
Selecting previously deselected package libsvncpp0c2a.
(Reading database
Unpacking libsvncpp0c2a (from
Selecting previously deselected package libwxbase2.6-0.
Unpacking libwxbase2.6-0 (from
Selecting previously deselected package libwxgtk2.6-0.
Unpacking libwxgtk2.6-0 (from
Selecting previously deselected package rapidsvn.
Unpacking rapidsvn (from
Setting up libsvncpp0c2a (0.9.4-1ubuntu3)
Setting up libwxbase2.6-0 (2.6.3.2.1.5ubuntu6)
Setting up libwxgtk2.6-0 (2.6.3.2.1.5ubuntu6)
Setting up rapidsvn (0.9.4-1ubuntu3)
Wow! That was so easy! Took me 30 seconds to install including downloading. Would have taken longer to install on windows just to find the rapidsvn website, download the files, click the install button and hit the next button on the wizard. Geez people start using Ubuntu or at least a Debian based distro. It's not 1997 anymore.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Translation: "Watch as I make the same logical error I've just claimed you made!"
Your claims o
Standardization and unity (Score:3, Interesting)
I haven't read TFA yet (I will), but what is missing in the Linux community is unity and standardization. It would be great if people could rally around a single distribution of a common software framework, so that there is consistency and compatibility between different distributions - or better yet - that a single major flavour of Linux that more or less replaces Windows.
I wonder, is that possible? A unified set of standards in the Linux world would give us reliable and secure computing, something that simply cannot be attained in the Windows world. Ease of use, stability, reliability, security and open source software, that's what needed to replace today's bloated and ridiculously insecure and unreliable Windows systems.
Where Are The Users? (Score:5, Insightful)
The users. There's virtually no mention of them. There's talk about companies who are connected with Linux, about the technology, about the freedom of open software. But of the actual users there's only one passing reference.
If you want to advance Linux, start thinking about the users - their needs, their desires, their problems, and so on. To begin anywhere else is to neglect the most important part of the equation, and Linux will remain a "system for nerds" forever.
And so far as "Where does Linux go from here", send it to rewrite.
Open Source Support (Score:3, Interesting)
Perhaps what is needed is "Open Source Support". A website who's focus is to help the newbie to Linux on the consumer end. The site would have volunteers helping via IM chat, email, and perhaps VoIP. Said site would only support the most basic of activities (ie: setting up basic configurations such as mouse, video, printer, basic networking, etc. Basic software installation. Etc).
The support agents would be volunteers. The website would provide email alias & accounts. And even an option to "tip" your support representative via "Paypal" or perhaps other means. The site would avoid any more complex issues (ie: setting up your own web server, etc). Not saying a support contact might not help someone. But any such request could be politely declined.
It'd be an interesting idea. Not sure if it could be pulled off, but if it could I think such a site would do wonders for helping people migrate to Linux. (Which would then entail much more support on the corporate end for drivers, development and enterprise activities.)
- The Saj
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
There is no standardization across hardware vendors for windows. RAID cards are always different, Hardware monitoring is always different... The old Compaq servers were the best but was 100% different from DELL and IBM. no standardization anywhere.
I would LOVEto see standardization like you speak of, but it does not exist. Not for Windows, not for Linux. the ONLY place I have ever seen it is OSX and SUN.
but then you are using their hardware and their OS...
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Google for lm-sensors. I'm fairly sure that's at least a standard API, even if the backends aren't standard.
There's also SNMP and Nagios, which can be used to remotely monitor a system. I'm fairly sure you can tie these in to lm-sensors.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Wrong on ALL accounts.
There IS a standard way for ALL Linuxes to monitor EVERYTHING. Smartd+snmp will do the trick and it works just about the same for them all.
As for the rest, vendors create their measly, unoperable, stupid shitty stuff to supposedly "monitor" things. They are all really pretty badly made, but its "their" way.
That being said, "Linux" as an abstract entity has no room in corpoland, you need to start thinking RHEL or SLES, and there you will see: all RHEL is monitored the same way, a
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Hopefully WGA will put a stop to this.
Re:One day, but not today (Score:5, Informative)
Proprietary driver manager pops up, asks you if you want to install the driver and d/l the firmware, auto installs it and network manager pops up to connect. Easier than in windoze.
ALSA/OSS:
These days the only time you'd ever need to mess with these settings is to
a) record something using either USB or built in mic's. Record something in windows without messing with a control panel.
b) use it with an app installed through wine, and even then not so often.
Parent
Eh... not so sure. (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm not so sure. I think the real next stop is actually handheld devices, be they cellphones or tablets. Not only that, but I'm willing to bet most people won't even know or care that these devices are running linux. The only people who have ever cared about what they run on their desktops is A) Geeks and/or B) Fanboys.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Need some minor apps....Like Outlook (Score:5, Informative)
The Linux clipboard is a perfectly conventional clipboard although it has some minor differences at the nuts and bolts level. (Unlike Windows and Mac, it doesn't move any data until a Paste is requested). Clipboards are an application level entity not an OS thing. All the OS does is allow the destination to talk to the source and vice versa. Unix in general and Linux in particular allow non-text objects to be moved via the clipboard just as easily as they do text objects. But the applications need to support that. Some do. Some Don't. Same is true for Windows.
You, can, for example, use the clipboard to copy images from a web site viewed in Konqueror to Kword. You can't copy the same image from the same web site viewed in Firefox, but that's because Firefox doesn't support it, not because Linux doesn't.
The only clipboard thing that is actually different in Linux is that the text mode clipboard for tty consoles is a different clipboard than the GUI clipboard (so that it can work if the GUI is dead or not started). But if you run a console application in a terminal program under the GUI, it uses the GUI clipboard so you can move text to and from console applications if you need to.
Parent
Re:Need some minor apps....Like Outlook (Score:4, Informative)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
It's because linux geeks perceive KDE as pandering to the windows crowd and people like GNOME for the simple fact that it isn't trying to be a windows clone. I personally don't like GNOME and prefer KDE, not because it is more "Windows" like, but I like the look, feel, and layout better. Some distros are KDE-friendly. After all, you can get kubuntu (although I think regular ubunutu install cd should give you a choice during inst