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French Parliament To Go Open Source

Posted by kdawson on Tue Nov 28, 2006 09:10 PM
from the desktops-and-all dept.
dhoyte writes, "Newsfactor.com reports that next June the French parliament will be switching from Microsoft to open source products such as Linux for desktops and servers and OpenOffice for day-to-day documents. They see it as a cost-cutting measure." The French have not settled on a Linux distribution yet. The article quotes an analyst voicing a note of caution: "'The evidence on the cost savings attributable to a switch to Linux has been mixed,' according to Chris Swenson, director of software industry analysis at research group NPD. 'There has been some evidence that companies have to spend a good deal on training and support after you deploy...'"
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[+] French Parliament Chooses Ubuntu 174 comments
atamyrat reminds us that last November it was announced that the French Parliament had decided to switch to Linux. At that time the distro had not been determined. It will be Ubuntu: "[T]wo companies, Linagora and Unilog, have been selected to provide the members of the Parliament as well as their assistants new computers containing free software. This will amount to 1,154 new computers running Ubuntu prior to the start of the next session which occurs in June 2007."
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  • mandriva (Score:4, Interesting)

    by *no comment* (239368) on Tuesday November 28 2006, @09:12PM (#17028150) Homepage Journal
    It'll probably Mandriva. Isn't that a French company anyway?

    • Re:mandriva (Score:5, Interesting)

      by MrCrassic (994046) <mrcrassic&gmail,com> on Tuesday November 28 2006, @09:35PM (#17028362) Homepage Journal

      I think Mandriva will be the best choice for Linux transitioning to desktops. It's easy to install (probably the quickest and most straightforward installation next to Ubuntu), pretty simple to maintain, and is in my opinion the most user-friendly operating system for home and small-business users. I think of it as the Red Hat of Home Linux; it has fully dedicated support channels, premium content that is pretty nifty to have, and a very solid online community for those that cannot afford support. Last time I checked, the only other two mainstream Linux distributions that have all of those advantages are SuSE Linux (Novell) and Red Hat Linux.

      Every time I have used Linux, I land up turning to Mandriva or Fedora. Fedora is good for ultra bleeding edge stuff, while Mandriva is the Linux distribution that "Just Works" (save the casual Linux stuff, of course). I think that if they do not use the other two said distributions, Mandriva will be a very probably candidate. I would most certainly switch to this distribution if I had a project of this magnitude.

      • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

        Distrowatch [distrowatch.com] says this about Mandriva: "Cons: Some releases are buggy". Sadly this has been exactly my experience with them. Granted, I may have run into some obscure bugs by my own bad luck, but having Distrowatch say what I quoted seems to support that it wasn't just that (and I kicked myself for not listening to Distrowatch).

        This was around a year and a half ago, so perhaps things have changed.
      • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

        I tend to throw out Fedora because of their habbit of including unstable code, SUSE because of Microsoft, and RedHat because of the cost. Mandriva sounds good, but Ubuntu and Debian are where I usually land. You can't beat the 19,000 pre-compiled packages maintained in the distro! For a government, I'd want Ubuntu over Debian, since it has to be easy for morons to use :-)
        • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

          If you want lots of packages, and you like Mandriva, you might want to try using the PLF sources, via EasyURPMI [zarb.org]. They provide tons of packages, and I very rarely find a piece of software for Linux that isn't available via this channel. Makes installing software a breeze.
      • Re:mandriva (Score:4, Interesting)

        by foobsr (693224) * on Tuesday November 28 2006, @11:28PM (#17029152) Homepage Journal
        Hopefully more governments will follow suit and find that sometimes open source is better software, since it has been under the scrutiny of the public.

        The whole EU will follow, as I hope. With regard to Germany, I am quite sure.

        CC.
          • If the French actually make the switch...

            Microsoft will begin lobbying the US government based on new information that:

            1. the French have weapons of mass destruction.
            2. the French have contrarian opinions of international politics then the US Republicans.
            3. the French are now starting a project to bypass the capitalistic economy of US software industry, taking on a socialistic slant to their ideologies.

            making France a ripe target for mass invasion by the USA.

            Oh wait... Never mind. This is all old news. We

      • Re: (Score:3, Funny)

        by Anonymous Coward
        French sounding name, White Flag Linux?
  • Hope it goes through (Score:5, Interesting)

    by thedarknite (1031380) on Tuesday November 28 2006, @09:17PM (#17028192) Homepage
    Although I am a little bit skeptical about news that states large organisations will be switching to open source. I recall similar a story in Australia, in which Telstra (IIRC) was going to switch to Linux until M$ offered them below normal pricing.
    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward
      I think it's more than just a measure for saving costs. They don't want to depend on one large company that doesn't mind to blackmail others. What if Microsoft suddenly threatens to drop its products in Europe? Both Europe and Microsoft will lose, but the difference is that Microsoft is in control while it should have been the government (representing the people).

      Being less dependent while saving costs can only be a good thing. Let's hope that they prove it's possible so others will make the step as well.
      • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

        I agree that is likely not a cost saving ploy. However, I will maintain my skeptism until they begin rolling out a distribution. It is possible that they may end up maintaining the status quo, because it's even cheaper to not upgrade.

        At one of my previous jobs I had to install and setup a piece of specialised teaching software, and quite a number of large organisations were sitting on very old Windows installations.

        But, I like I said, I hope it goes through and doesn't get shot down by some vocal mino
    • Telstra (IIRC) was going to switch to Linux until M$ offered them below normal pricing.

      I can confirm that, worked for them at the time. Had a CIO poached from Sun around then, too. Bill Gates flew in to talk to Ziggy Switkowski (then CEO) and after that it was all roses between them. My opinion at the time was that it was all just a ploy to beat down Microsoft's prices, sort of the corporate version of talking to a vendor with their competitor's coffee mug on your desk.

      Everything's negotiable, especially if you have 40,000 high-profile desktop licenses at stake.

        • ...so like me you would have seen how much an utter disaster the attempted linux pilot was.

          Not that that would have stopped them. Every new project that Telstra attempts is a disaster, including the ones I've been involved in. You are quite right about the Sun-anti-Microsoft sentiment, of course. But Ziggy was not above using his execs as pawns to push his own agenda.

          Insider joke -- Telstra projects have finally run out of acronyms -- you can't open a new project unless you prefix the acronym with the number "9".

    • by bedonnant (958404) on Tuesday November 28 2006, @09:54PM (#17028498) Homepage
      that very well may be, but i think it is also a political move of independance. Being French myself, I find it quite surprising that the software used at the center of democracy, where all of the economical, political and social decisions are made, still relies on a foreign company, microsoft. this is especially true since the UE has started giving microsoft fines; on one hand we punish microsoft, and on the other we ask them to please allow us to not cripple our democracy. this move to opensource is very good news.
      • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

        Like all of the other large rollouts that get announced to great fanfare and then get abandoned to even greater press releases, white papers and case studies, Microsoft will go in and make em an offer they won't refuse.

        That's how i would feel about such an announcement in general. But it's now a couple years in France that the police switched to Open Office, and more recently, the tax office underwent the transition. There might be more administrations, but i don't know about them, having no insiders. The
  • by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 28 2006, @09:20PM (#17028222)
    'There has been some evidence that companies have to spend a good deal on training and support after you deploy...'"

    Nonsense! Linux is so easy to use you can take it out of the box and plug it in. And be working that same day.
    • You owe me a new scarcasm meter.

    • by Fred_A (10934) <fred.fredshome@org> on Wednesday November 29 2006, @03:45AM (#17030358) Homepage
      Besides I've seen with my own eyes a 12 year old girl recognising an obscure Unix file manager after a mere glance. "I know this, this is Unix !" she exclaimed in front of a clueless audience of hundreds.

      So don't tell me Unix is hard. 12 year old girls can use it.
    • Last time I tried installing XP from scratch it took me about two weeks to get it working. That was five years ago, and it still isn't working without problems.


      OTOH Linux, as you say, can start working on the same day, unless, of course, you start the installation less than ten minutes before midnight, in which case it won't be working until the next day.

  • ...must be a nexus point in the Matrix, déjà vu seems to happen quite often around here.
  • Retraining. (Score:5, Interesting)

    by cyphercell (843398) on Tuesday November 28 2006, @09:24PM (#17028266) Homepage Journal
    I'm sick of hearing about retraining as being a reason not to change to Linux. The facts are that you're going to have to retrain everyone when you're forced to upgrade anyways. The big difference being that your Linux rollout will cost less, and provide future savings in the form of not having to upgrade and retrain for the next big change in an MS Office menu.
    • Re:Retraining. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 28 2006, @09:49PM (#17028462)
      I'm sick of hearing about retraining as being a reason not to change to Linux. The facts are that you're going to have to retrain everyone when you're forced to upgrade anyways. The big difference being that your Linux rollout will cost less, and provide future savings in the form of not having to upgrade and retrain for the next big change in an MS Office menu.
      I'm with you. I know this is going to upset some people, but I don't care. If you really need training to move from Internet Explorer to Firefox, or MS Word to OpenOffice Writer, I think I'd rather replace you than train you. You weren't smart enough to use 95% of the features of the old app, and if you can't pick up the 5% you need in a few days, you were probably going to be lost at the next Office upgrade anyway. Look! File / New! It's still there! Select words! Change font! Print! Center, Justify! My mom made the jump in less than a day, your users can too!
    • Then you don't even know you've changed.
      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        Most of the things that are different are not used by the average person anyway. A French Parliament member would likely stay in their home directory, not use the command prompt, etc.
      • by bedonnant (958404) on Tuesday November 28 2006, @10:03PM (#17028566) Homepage
        How much preexisting knowledge and skills will cross-over to a Linux installation? Or will that be a "from scratch" issue?

        you have to remember that its the French Parliement. Parliement, not any kind of technical branch of the government. The people affected by this move will only surf the web, write reports and emails.

        I dont think that a massive training will be needed to switch from IE to Firefox, etc. Nor will it be from scratch. From a strictly user view, for the computer illiterate, the only changes they will notice will be maybe fonts, or colors.

        • by grcumb (781340) on Tuesday November 28 2006, @10:40PM (#17028850) Homepage Journal
          Parliement, [sic] not any kind of technical branch of the government. The people affected by this move will only surf the web, write reports and emails.

          I really doubt that. I don't have any experience with the French Parliament, but I did a lot of contracting with the Canadian Parliament for a few years, and I can tell you that they have a huge data management task. They were responsible for the timely publication of every single formal statement, document, report etc. from our politicians. And we all know that politicians do love to talk.

          One of the services we offered the was daily Hansard (a record of everything spoken in Parliament during a session), which was fielded by and indexed, cross-linked in both official languages and searchable by language, Party affiliation, region, riding and protocol (e.g. Question Period, Votes, etc.). Every morning by 07:00, we had everything spoken the day before prepped and readied for our customers. This data was merged into the existing infobase, creating a tremendously powerful research tool. And that was only one aspect of the kind of data management services they offered.

          I'm inclined to say that the French Parliament probably did a needs analysis and decided on FOSS for precisely the opposite reason you're suggesting. If my experience in Canada is any indication, their typical workstation needs would be quite advanced, and the ability to create special purpose data management tools in open, interchangeable formats for a reasonable cost would likely be the most compelling reasons to move to Linux.

          I say that from experience. It was the work I did with these guys (and other clients at the time) that convinced me to move away from Windows entirely. I haven't ever regretted that decision.

      • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

        It's hardly a "from scratch" situation for normal users. Normal users will adapt to the new system the quickest. They'll complain the most, but they will actually have the least difficulty. Actually, quite a bit of skills will transfer over nicely, people will complain, but the actual differences are moot. The hardest parts to switch will be in the server room where your database setup depends on functions unique to MS SQL server and other such problems. Then again these switches will be implemented by peo
      • You do realize that for most companies retraining doesn't mean "starting from scratch". How much preexisting knowledge and skills will cross-over to a Linux installation? Or will that be a "from scratch" issue?

        Anecdotal evidence that you're not making a very strong point. A few months back, I switch to Ubuntu. I asked my wife if she would be comfortable making the switch; her computer use is limited to word processing and internet browsing, like most people. She was hesitant, but made me promise to hel

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        How much preexisting knowledge and skills will cross-over to a Linux installation? Or will that be a "from scratch" issue?

        For 98% of people, 98% of their skills. As 98% of office workers just click to open a document, type, and click on a button to format, click on a button to print or email. The support techs are the ones who will have to actually learn anything new; and as they're already using Linux servers, that won't be a stretch for them.

        The 2% who have VBA mactros and such will need more hand

  • Cost of Training (Score:5, Interesting)

    by darkonc (47285) <stephen_samuel@b ... m ['n.c' in gap]> on Tuesday November 28 2006, @09:30PM (#17028314) Homepage Journal
    This means that the best time to change from Microsoft to OO would be when changes in MS's products would require a heavy investment in training and support for a new product, in any event ... such as.... 2007 .

    Can anybody get some estimates of the cost of training and support for a recent majour MS Office update? I figure that that should be somewhere near the cost of a switch...

    FOI request anybody?

    • Can anybody get some estimates of the cost of training and support for a recent majour MS Office update? I figure that that should be somewhere near the cost of a switch...

      Dunno, some of those new Catalyst switches from Cisco aren't that cheap...

  • by MikeFM (12491) on Tuesday November 28 2006, @09:30PM (#17028320) Homepage Journal
    It seems to me that money spent on education tends to pay off all around especially when that education teaches people how to do things without being locked to a certain vendor. Education passes from one person to another whereas buying commercial software locks you to that vendor and is not allowed to pass from person to person. Even if the costs are identical the opensource solution empowers the user more than a commercial solution.

    My experience though is that if the tasks you need to do can be done using opensource you will save quite a bit of money. If there are rough spots you need fixed you can spend a little bit of money to hire, or sponsor, an existing developer of that project to make things work the way you need. For what you could spend to buy a few licenses of your average commercial app you could have the opensource equivilant customized to your needs. That is power over your own fate. How much is that worth over years or decades?
    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      It seems to me that money spent on education tends to pay off all around especially when that education teaches people how to do things without being locked to a certain vendor. Education passes from one person to another whereas buying commercial software locks you to that vendor and is not allowed to pass from person to person. Even if the costs are identical the opensource solution empowers the user more than a commercial solution.

      Switching fom one platform to another entails pretty much the same 'trai
    • > It seems to me that money spent on education tends to pay off all around especially when that education teaches people how to do things without being locked to a certain vendor.

      You would seem to be confusing training and education. Training is what you give dogs and employees. Sit, speak, roll over, click File, click Save As, click RTF. Education is something you give tuition reimbursements for. There's precious little generalization you can get out of most corporate training.

    • My experience though is that if the tasks you need to do can be done using opensource you will save quite a bit of money. (...) For what you could spend to buy a few licenses of your average commercial app you could have the opensource equivilant customized to your needs.

      I suppose that depends on how much you're paying that person. If it's like a contribution as in "I would be working on it anyway, but sure I'll take some extra cash too" or "I want full compensation based on competative programmer rates to
      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        THere's no such thing as "standard point of sale hardware". They *all* have different protocols. Commercial POS software tends to only support a tiny fraction of the hardware on the market, so generally when buying a POS system - you'll look at the software that does what you want THEN select hardware that works with it.

        The nearest thing there is to a standard for the hardware is at the signalling level - it's generally all still RS-232, or if it's USB, it's USB set up as an RS-232 USB device (or if you're
  • As Stallman explained at WSIS [fsfe.org], if we argue based on cost, they can offer that too, but if we argue based on freedom, they're not even in the running.

    • Everybody cares about money.

      A strict subset cares about freedom, and they're probably already running Linux.

      I think the real trick is convincing people that freedom itself is worth real money. Yes, switching will cost you, but then, next time Microsoft says "You will buy Vista.", you don't have to. When you have this software that does X but you need it to do X+1, you can make it happen by hiring people, and there is nobody to tell you no. Presumably if you care about X+1 it comes down to "because it will s
  • translation (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Speare (84249) on Tuesday November 28 2006, @09:36PM (#17028368) Homepage

    The French have not settled on a Linux distribution yet.

    Translation: We want to see what Microsoft's counteroffer will be; if it's too low, we'll state we're picking Ubuntu, and if Microsoft still hasn't given a huge keep-me deal, we'll say we probably want Red Hat Enterprise Linux.

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      I see you don't know the French. Youu see, it is not true that they hate Americans. They just like making decisions by themselves. With Mandriva being largely French, you can be sure they just won't see the need to buy foreign.
  • "'The evidence on the cost savings attributable to a switch to Linux has been mixed,' according to Chris Swenson, director of software industry analysis at research group NPD. 'There has been some evidence that companies have to spend a good deal on training and support after you deploy...'"

    Oh my god am I tired of this argument... some people seem to have very little grasp over "long term" and "short term" savings.

    "It's different! It's hard to learn! Therefore it can't be good for us in the long run..."

    Some

  • by frogstar_robot (926792) <frogstar_robot@yahoo.com> on Tuesday November 28 2006, @10:19PM (#17028680)
    The path of least resistance is to switch pure functionality servers first. Things that provide services like DNS, DHCP, and NTP. The Linux machines can also hold the file shares even if Windows is still serving the directory. Anyhoo, you start simple and work up slowly on those.

    On the desktops, deploy FOSS apps one at a time as dependencies allow. Even Office is tough if a lot of bespoke apps laying around use it as a development environment. Sneak up on that as long as you can too. Once the users are broken in on FOSS app replacements, begin switching the OS for those users you've managed to get using purely FOSS apps. Move up through the users from there. The last and most difficult cases can be handled with virtual machines and terminal servers.

    If things are done this way rather than in one fell swoop then you avoid a user rebellions with great missing chunks of missing functionality amidst the kludges. You can also try things out first with the users who have a bit of clue and build up experience within the organization. Most of the negative Linux organization switch stories I've heard involved either the Fell Swoop approach or not having sufficient Linux/BSD/UNIX admin talent on hand.
      • Cluebat time (Score:5, Insightful)

        by jmorris42 (1458) * <jmorrisNO@SPAMbeau.org> on Tuesday November 28 2006, @11:46PM (#17029258) Homepage
        > Getting someone to use OOo doesn't make it one bit easier to switch from Win32 to Linux on the desktop.

        Oh hell yes it does, especially in an organization. If all of an organization's data is in Office format that organization will probably stay on Windows. Crossover Office ain't going to cut it (Office license + CX Office license and forget getting a sweet deal on the Office licensing) and neither will OO.o's import filters. First time a document doesn't work 100% in the initial testing a MS fanboy (MCSE type afraid of learning) will raise holy hell.

        Get everyone off of Office and IE first and swapping out the underlying OS is a lot easier. Remember, people don't run an OS they run applications.
      • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

        by Anonymous Coward
        Slashdot has ads?