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Red Hat Says They'll Be In Linux Long After Novell

Posted by Zonk on Sat Nov 04, 2006 06:39 AM
from the fighting-words dept.
Software Businesses Novell Red Hat Software Microsoft Linux
Jane Walker writes "Red Hat general counsel Mark Webbink goes to the mat for his company regarding the Microsoft/Novell partnership, in this SearchOpenSource.com Q&A. 'In one year, Red Hat will be all that remains of commercial Linux, he said.'" From the article: "Between last week and this one, it is clear that the two largest software vendors in the world perceive Linux to be at least on the same plane as them. They have got to respect what we have done. Having said that, does Red Hat think either of them has taken the right approach, now that Microsoft and Novell have made 'Microvell'? They've gone off the road a bit, we think, but we are feeling good about the attention that has been brought to Linux. "
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  • In one year's time, it's quite possible that Red Hat will have already lost the battle of even just supporting their own product. [oracle.com]
      • And as a neutral party who sits here and watches both being used in the commercial space, but has no loyalty to either, I would say that MS is far worse. They have legions of support ppl and yet they have virus, bugs, huge amounts of downtime. The costs of support on windows is many times what Oracle is (again from an outside POV). Of course, you can argue that it is because windows is on so many systems, but I have noticed that when DBAs need help from Oracle, they get it. OTH, trying to get an honest answ
        • Oracle, like Cisco and Sun, and other enterprise class companies, have support teams around the world that will work with you 24 hours a day until the problem is resolved. I don't buy the Redhat supported linux because: 1) I can support all of linux myself just fine, and 2) it is WAY overpriced for what you get when dealing with volume licenses. The volume license model is f*cked. It doesn't cost 73 times more to support 75 servers that are all clones of each other on identicle hardware than it does 1 (the

  • Red Hat Beats it's own chest (Score:3, Insightful)

    by aussie_a (778472) on Saturday November 04 2006, @06:47AM (#16714669) Journal
    *Yawn*

    Alright, if you do read the actual article (a foreign concept for some I know), they do make some valid points about Linux in general. Such as that Microsoft has finally admitted it has to take Linux seriously. But one thing that does concern me.

    I don't think Linux customers have anything to worry about there.

    So people who use Novell and Microsoft products are safe, but what about those that choose other products? Will they get sued?

    One year ago, we provided a counterweight to people with patent portfolios that may threaten open source software by building a contravening portfolio of software patents.

    Nothing says that the patent system is more broken then this.

    Think back to the Microsoft/Sun announcement from a couple years ago, and today, you haven't seen any of the promised technical collaboration from that partnership whatsoever.

    Heh. Now there's an apt comparison.

    That problem is, you can be either for freedom and collaboration, or you can take a different approach

    Aaawh, now come on. You can come out and say it. "You're either for freedom and collaboration, or you're against it."

    I can at least respect Microsoft, because they don't pretend to be an open source company.

    Come on, we all know what you're saying. Leave that bush alone it's looking pretty nackered. "Novell isn't an open source company, even though it pretends to be." There, now was that so hard?
    • Such as that Microsoft has finally admitted it has to take Linux seriously.

      Let's see, what other companies has Microsoft partnered with in order to improve Windows interoperability? 3Com, Sybase....

      • Sun...

        Yes, all these companies are not doing that well today. They are not out of business either. I think Redhat makes a good point about Novell pulling out of Linux before they do. Look at the Novell track record. The real issue is why is Novell making the deal with Microsoft? Could it be that many people don't consider them relevant anymore with Netware and Groupwise? Perhaps their plans for Suse have not come to pass. I've worked for two different Universities that use Netware/Groupwise and are s
        • just thinking aloud: Novell has some sort(s) of big plans for Mono. Mono is the most likely target of patent action by MS. They're covering their bases before they roll out a killer app.
          • Novell has been trying to replace groupwise with a .NET version for some time. They want it to run in mono on linux as well as in windows. Anything to get rid of the terrible memory leaks would be an improvement. I should explain... Groupwise 6.5 has a little issue. Once a user sent an email to everyone at the university I worked for. She did not use a list, but actually addressed everyone individually. On most computers, Groupwise consumed so much ram that it actually overwrote memory for other proce

    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by kripkenstein (913150)
      So people who use Novell and Microsoft products are safe, but what about those that choose other products? Will they get sued?

      As has been discussed at length in many places in recent days, this doesn't seem likely. To summarize:

      1. There is no real 'new' risk to other Linux distros than there was a week ago. Just FUD. Saying "but Novell admit there are patents" isn't a real argument.

      2. Microsoft cannot easily crush their competition with patents, because (a) of the risk of antitrust measures, (b) the
      • So, in the end, nothing has changed, except for the apparent "gentlemans' arrangement" between Microsoft and Novell not to sue each other. This may appeal to some managers and lead them to choose SUSE, but that is all it is, a little good PR.

        That's hilariously naive. A little good PR? Well, you forget about the BIG BAD PR for the entire linux community. I will spell out for you what exactly happened: Novell (the holder of Unix copyrights btw, and a linux distributor) acknowledged that Microsoft might have valid patent claims in linux. If you haven't realized: that's pretty bad.

        And I will explain it in Ballmer's words as well, if you think I'm crazy or a zealot (btw, I use FreeBSD, not linux, but care for the FLOSS movement):

        The distributors of other versions of Linux cannot assure their customers that Microsoft won't sue for patent infringement. "If a customer says, 'Look, do we have liability for the use of your patented work?' Essentially, If you're using non-SUSE Linux, then I'd say the answer is yes," Ballmer said. "I suspect that [customers] will take that issue up with their distributor," Ballmer said. Or if customers are considering doing a direct download of a non-SUSE Linux version, "they'll think twice about that," he said.
        Novell succeeded in what SCO failed - incriminated linux distributions. SCO was a weak proxy of Microsoft, now Novell is much much stronger - after all, it is the company that has ~20% marketshare in the enterprise linux arena.

        Some people think (I'm not referring specifically to your post) that calling others zealots, because they are angry and disappointed is somehow cool. They think that they sound more intelligent if they think only inside the pragmatical/technical box. Here is another angle for those - until now, linux distributions participated in "pure" competition. What I mean is that they competed on two fronts: technical merits of the distribution, and quality of support and services. This was good, even if sometimes it got nasty (like in Oracle case). Novell tainted this with another factor: the MS patent flag. This is very bad on the long run ... unless Novell is stopped somehow.

        Oh, and fuck Miguel and friends. They only care for pushing their own agenda. Last year Novell leadership was convinced that going GNOME and MONO is a good idea. Then they had to backpedal, not only because existing customers who standardized on KDE, but because there were migration plans in progress that specifically choose KDE on SuSE, and one of them was a 2000 desktop migration plan (in Europe). Then we had Miguel saying for YEARS that there are no patent issues with MONO. And now, he claims that MONO is finally safe, at least if you use Novell's linux offerings. Yes, yes, some people would say that they saw this coming, after all, he has been a Microsoft fan for some time now. And now:

        So today we have secured a peace of mind for Novell customers that might have been worried about possible patent infringements open source deployments. This matters in particular for Mono, because for a long time its been the favorite conversation starter for folks that find dates on Slashdot.
        Well, what about non-Novell customers, Mr. Miguel? There goes all the warning agains incorporating MONO technology into GNOME btw.
        • Well, there's a really simple solution. Ban software patents. We don't have them here in the EU, so I don't care about this pact. On the other hand, it's becoming increasingly difficult to keep it that way, and the argument is always the need to 'harmonise' our patent system with the USA, so you guys in Leftpondia could make our lives a lot easier if you'd spend some time slapping your elected representatives. My MEP is an active member of the FFII [ffii.org]. Will you be voting for active EFF [eff.org] supporters tomorrow
          • That would be exactly the solution. But: how long do you think that the EU remains patent free? The European Parliament can reject the drafts a few times, but eventually, the European Committee can push it through if it wants to. That's one flaw of the EU - EC has too much power compared to EP.

            The problem is, that Novell provided pro-patent legislators some munition. It would be wise for European linux wendors to cooperate on a higher level, and put unprecedented pressure on pro-patent legislations. A joi

        • That's hilariously naive. A little good PR? Well, you forget about the BIG BAD PR for the entire linux community. I will spell out for you what exactly happened: Novell (the holder of Unix copyrights btw, and a linux distributor) acknowledged that Microsoft might have valid patent claims in linux. If you haven't realized: that's pretty bad.

          I agree that it is bad PR, but disagree on the amount. Now, if the actual patents were disclosed, this would be far worse (but disclosing them would put Novell in GPL

    • So people who use Novell and Microsoft products are safe, but what about those that choose other products? Will they get sued?

      No change in what the situation already was for all the others. Absolutely no change there. It says they won't go after Novell. It does not say that it will go after everybody else. To asume that is prety much Bush-thinking. ;-)

      "Novell isn't an open source company, even though it pretends to be." There, now was that so hard?

      You are right, it is easy to say. I don't think Novell would

      • No change in what the situation already was for all the others. Absolutely no change there. It says they won't go after Novell. It does not say that it will go after everybody else. To asume that is prety much Bush-thinking. ;-)

        Let me clarify this - there isn't any need to assume that they will actually go after other linux companies. The fact that we are discussing this possibility is bad enough for the reputation of linux in general. I my opinion, that's what Microsoft will do - it won't actually go aft

        • operating the FUD machine.

          The only FUD I have seen so far is from the community itself. There is no change for those non-SUSE Linux users. There might be only a change for the SUSE Linux users.

          The fact is that if you use Novell you won't get sued. That has changed.
          If you use anything else, you could get sued before, you can get sued now. No difference there.

          Let us talk numbers. Say 100 ditributions. This means 100 distributions could get sued in the past. Now SUSE can't get sued. That means 99 can STILL get

  • This is not about IP. This is about the freedom to meet customer needs and to create competition. That problem is, you can be either for freedom and collaboration, or you can take a different approach. These companies are trying to do both. I can at least respect Microsoft, because they don't pretend to be an open source company.

    Intersting jibe at Novell. Although I agree. I've got nothing against MS' products, but their philosophy and that of "Linux" companies are diamerically opposed. I see no logic in No

  • Oh, come on... (Score:3, Informative)

    by Mikachu (972457) <mikazuchi&gmail,com> on Saturday November 04 2006, @06:54AM (#16714693) Homepage
    Do you really have to go and call it 'Microvell'? It's a partnership, not a merger. Don't get them confused.
  • "Novell also takes issue with Ballmer's comments that no vendor today stands behind Linux with full intellectual-property indemnification."

    That's the salvo that will be the real start of the war. The question isn't whether Microsoft will follow SCO's lead, but WHEN.

    • Of course, at that point we can also expect to see the EU Directorates get into a fullscale civil war between the DG Markt, Comp, InfSo and some others, over wether IP law is in any form compatible with anti-trust and a competetive market.
  • I think the bigger news from this article is the fact that RedHat is now offering indemnification for its customers. They slipped this into their FAQ now as well ( http://www.redhat.com/promo/believe/ [redhat.com]). While I think their hand was forced a bit on this one in order to remain competitive with where the market seems to be going, its still welcome news. This has been a significant hurdle for many companies even considering whether to adopt open source. As it becomes more widespread and "the norm" that you
    • I think the bigger news from this article is the fact that RedHat is now offering indemnification for its customers.

      So what, people have one of two choices now? Novell/Microsoft or Red Hat? Doesn't sound like much of a choice to me. But then again the American people are happy with it for their government, so I suppose they'll be happy with it for their operating system.

      • So what, people have one of two choices now? Novell/Microsoft or Red Hat?

        No, they have three choices. Novell, RedHat or Microsoft. Ther only thing that has happend is that Novell and Microsoft will be working together to get better interoperability.

        If you don't want or need that and if it is something that only Novell has, that no problem. Choose what you want.
        If it is something you need, the chances are high that Novell has brought it back to the OSS community and you can still select RedHat, through Nove

  • "now only Novell's SUSE Linux customers are the only Linux vendors that have any assurance that Microsoft won't sue for patent infringement..." Steve Ballmer

    http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=200611032 01234813 [groklaw.net]

  • Trustworthy? (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Decaff (42676)
    Think back to the Microsoft/Sun announcement from a couple years ago, and today, you haven't seen any of the promised technical collaboration from that partnership whatsoever.

    This comment alone makes me sceptical about this article, as it is not only incorrect, but easily shown to be false. Just to give one example, anyone who has been following the development of the latest Java release (6) knows that there has been considerable technical collaboration, one result of which is that Java on Vista will be fu
    • The specialized media has been aghast with the result of such fruitful collaboration.

      People are clamoring, no, begging, for more of it.
      • The specialized media has been aghast with the result of such fruitful collaboration.

        People are clamoring, no, begging, for more of it.

        The strange thing about supposedly ironic and sarcastic comments is that very occasionally they are, in contrast to the intentions of the author.

        One of the results of the collaboration has been Java 6 integration with Windows. No matter what the common belief, Java desktop development is widespread, but what is really needed is GUI integration and performance that makes it

    • results are better networking between Solaris systems and Windows.

      Does than mean IPec on Windows now works? Heck, I have BSD, 2 Linux and 2 Solaris doing IPSec natively and together but getting Microsoft Windows OS to do it is a nighmare nemisis. But not holding my breath. But it is about the only reason to upgrade to Vista I can think of.

  • ...mean nothing but Slashdot is forgetting history. Despite commanding market positions and unique opportunities, Novell has consistently fucked up every single time without fail. Most of their managers can't scratch their own arses without two mirrors and a searchlight.

    Think Novell won't fuck this up again? Wrong.

    • A better piece of history to remember is how Microsoft ripped off Novell back in the OS/2 days. Network manager was supposed to be a joint project. Microsoft has done a good job targeting Novell's netware ever since.
      I just can not think this is a good thing.

    • Think Novell won't fuck this up again? Wrong.

      Your quite right on this. Novell bought XIMIAN, a key component to really making a serious run at Microsoft's desktop but when it came to marketing it they fell right down without so much as gasp. Self destructive.

  • >> In one year, Red Hat will be all that remains of commercial Linux

    Sure, but what will remain of Red Hat?

    And who needs "commercial Linux" anyway?

    Hey, I don't dislike Red Hat, in fact it's my favorite distro. But the idea of running a standalone Linux vendor is history. It is a dead parrot. It's nailed to its perch. It has shuffled off this mortal coil, etc. etc. etc.
    • To clarify... Red Hat could continue to operate at modest profits on their current business model... but the stock market (ie, the owners) aren't going to allow it. A private owner might settle for it, but the market has been sold the stock on the basis of a growth story that no longer exists. Management will be pressured to restructure or be acquired.

      It's not hopeless for them, but it's time to just completely forget the 90's business model of making money by selling a branded OS. Shucks, even Microsoft
    • And who needs "commercial Linux" anyway?

      "commercial Linux" contributes a lot of code to Linux and other open source projects. Linux wouldn't be what it is today without RedHat...
      • Funny, I thought it was the kernel developers that make the vanilla code and other software developers that Red Hat modifies for their use?
  • good thing there is no more space for others to surface in competition.

    ---surface----
    you can bunt too.
  • would be because M$ is going to ass rape Novell Suse Linux into oblivion with a flaming chainsaw.
    M$ is going to pollute Linux with their poison code then sue everyone else out of existence.

    I've been a loyal Suse user for a few years now, I PURCHASE, use and resell Suse Linux.
    I have advocated and pushed Suse Linux commercially and personally to customers, friends and family.

    But this is the end of the relationship. It is time to part ways with Suse now.
    I don't want to update machines only to later discover t
  • CEO of Acme Inc: Our business model is seriously flawed, and these new competitors of ours are kicking our asses in the marketplace. We have serious concerns about the future performance of our stock, and we are unable to succeed at new product development.

  • Aren't they humble. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Junta (36770) on Saturday November 04 2006, @09:55AM (#16715479)
    "Between last week and this one, it is clear that the two largest software vendors in the world perceive Linux to be at least on the same plane as them. They have got to respect what we have done."

    So Linux is good, and it's *all* thanks to RedHat? No one else deserves credit.

    "We still believe that we will be the dominant player in the Linux market, because by that time there won't be any other Linux players."

    Do they have to take it to the point of saying 'there can be only one'? I mean that is the whole problem with MSOFT, a homogeneous market. If he stopped before the because, that would have been sufficient and appropriate, but that last bit fuels the flames of those who proclaim RH wants to be the MS of Linux. Whether or not they can is another matter, but it sounds like for this person, this is a confirmed desired path for RH's future.

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by talksinmaths (199235)
      So Linux is good, and it's *all* thanks to RedHat? No one else deserves credit.

      Your paraphrasing skills need some work. This isn't what was stated or implied.

      Do they have to take it to the point of saying 'there can be only one'?

      What you're (intentionally?) leaving out is that they're referring to enterprise linux market 'players'. How many players are there now? Two by my count, but I'm not counting offerings such as Unbreakable (or even Ubuntu LTS) unless/until they gain meaningful traction in the mark
  • what comes to my mind is another blow at Red Hat's business coming on the heels of Oracle's announcement that it would undercut Red Hat's linux support pricing. I've got three words for Red Hat stock holders, sell, sell, sell. Red Hat really needs to enter a joint venture with or sell out to nother bigger company who is or wants to get into the linux business.
    • Red Hat really needs to enter a joint venture with or sell out to nother bigger company who is or wants to get into the linux business.

      Which bigger company would that be, exactly? And what would they get from their purchase that they don't already get from the existance of Linux and Red Hat? How would they assimilate Red Hat's radically different culture and ideology without destroying all the value they've purchased?

      Please be specific. There are a very limited number of bigger tech companies with any in

  • RedHat sounds arrogant... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by porkThreeWays (895269) on Saturday November 04 2006, @10:25AM (#16715687)
    Red Hat sounds really arrogant in the article. However, much of it is basically true. I was a long time Novell/SuSe support after the acquisition. I use products from both companies on a daily basis. In the past few months I have pretty much left the suse train and jumped on the red hat one. Why? All this Oracle, Microsoft, Novell news is great for market analysts who never actually will ever use any of their products. But for someone who uses them on a daily basis, red hat's products and support are far superior.

    The stock can take a major hit in the short term by this sort of news, but quality products and good management (both of which red hat has) is what will keep the company alive in the long term. One year is much too short a timeframe for all this to pan out. Three years is more realistic. Oracle linux will turn into Sun's java desktop. The Novell/MS partnership will have yielded little/no technology advances. And Novell as a company may or may not have enough steam to keep on chugging in general (non-linux related activities).
  • *Those* are the distros that M$ should be shitting their pants about, since they actually are competitive to Windows on the *desktop.* If anything, an Ubuntu installation is easier than a comparable Windows and MS Office install. No licensing/key crap to worry about, and (if anything) a larger selection of built-in drivers is available. My last install of Ubuntu (on my dad's computer) took about 30 min tops, start to finish. The only slightly tricky part was installing the wlan card driver - had to use
      • What about Novell's treatment of SuSE has made it less open source/sucky? CentOS exists to the chagrin of RedHat. RedHat would love to be able to and has tried to make life hard within the boundaries of the law, without being overly dickheaded about it. RedHat discontinued offering their distro for free download, and transitioned to having the Fedora project be the equivalent, so the RH name was made 'pure' commercial.

        Novell at first look even seems to have made it more open. I.e. yast was not an open p
    • The other thing is that if Microsoft actually identifies a patent infringement, the community will patch around it in short time.
      I'm not sure how true that is going to be. Since software patents don't cover an algorithm but the end result of the algorithm, it's not like they can write the software to just do it a different way. They will have to actually remove functionality to escape a patent lawsuit.
      • If a patent which Novell licenses or manages jointly with Microsoft is infringed on, they might plausibly be able to obtain injunctions against rivals commercially distriubuting their enterprise products, or forcing them to withdraw support or disable functionality related to the patent.

        Remove the functionality, then make sure that the code and packages "leak" out for free and are easily available on sites hosted in friendly countries i.e. those that don't have the same level of patent stupidity as the U

    • This is a known issue. Just do a YaST Online Update (not via zen) and all will work well. To get it from scratch, download 10.1 which is basicaly the same as before, but with patches untill october 9th.

      After the download, just point to your DVD for all aditional software, or point to the repositories.

      If you want to use the 9.1 way, just use YaST (and even uninstall the updater). Works great as it always did.

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