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Indian State Logs Microsoft Out
Posted by
Zonk
on Sat Aug 26, 2006 12:42 PM
from the player-one-has-lost-the-match dept.
from the player-one-has-lost-the-match dept.
slack_prad writes "An Indian state, Kerala has chalked out a plan for migrating its high school students to free software platforms in three years. This was apparently in response to RMS's recent visit to the place. The education minister for the state said that the Free software guru Richard Stallman's visit last week had nudged the schools to discard the proprietary software altogether. 'Stallman has inspired Kerala's transition to free software on the lines of an exciting model of a Spanish province.' Initially, schools were given the option to choose whether teachers were to be trained in Linux systems or Microsoft. The option has now narrowed down to migration."
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Your Rights Online: French PM Unreceptive To RMS 534 comments
An anonymous reader writes "Six month after the publication of very bad amendments to French DRM law proposal, Richard Stallman has been pushed back by the chief of security team of French Prime minister.
On Friday 9th of June 2006 at 3.30pm, Richard Stallman, president of Free Software Foundation, led a delegation composed by Frédéric Couchet (Free Software Foundation France) and Christophe Espern (EUCD.INFO initiative) to meet the French Prime minister in order to talk about the French DRM law proposal and to deliver the EUCD.INFO petition signed by more than 165,000 French residents. Richard Stallman and his friends were pushed back by the chief of security team. "
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kerala (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:kerala (Score:4, Insightful)
Dumb.
RMS travels around attempting to persuade people/states/organisations the benefits of Free software. MS no doubt is similarly talking to the Kerela govt to persuade them to use their software.
The government makes the choice, then it's their responsibility to monitor the outcomes.
Would you suggest that MS should monitor each sale they've made where they've caused a switch to ensure there's 'real benefits' of the switch.
I know random RMS bashing is popular on slashdot, but please, try to make your trolls less stupid.
Parent
Re:kerala (Score:5, Informative)
I didnt mean to sound like I was bashing RMS, I meant it as being a good opportunity to get some decent, large-scale statistics about the benefits of free software with alternative indian states as a useful comparison, not as a demand that RMS act as an institution on his own, and that I hoped RMS or people affiliated with him use it as a chance to further the cause of free software (or learn from any potential problems with free software).
Parent
Re:kerala (Score:5, Interesting)
Parent
In this case... (Score:4, Informative)
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
Exactly what part of that comment was bashing RMS? Calling it a dumb, stupid troll is a bit ridiculous. The rest of your comment actually was insightful, but it's a shame to had to surround it with that crap.
Re:kerala (Score:5, Interesting)
Indix, a localized GNU/Linux, is already available [ernet.in] in Malayalam [ethnologue.com], the principal language of Kerala, so they're in good shape on that score.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
the local authorities, businesses and citizens are the ones who should evaluate, choose and rate the decisions. which, i suppose, already happens.
rms is evangelizing - which is good - but it is not feasible for him to push his preferences, make decisions and overall control processes in whole world.
RMS is an evangelist (Score:2, Flamebait)
That's fine if you're interested in Free Software solely as a political tool (which seems to be the case with RMS). But if you're actually interested in the long-term viability of the model, how it is interwoven with the
Re:RMS is an evangelist (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
Re:RMS is an evangelist (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
Kerala (Score:5, Informative)
Compared to the rest of India, the state is much more advanced. It's the subject of what economists call the Kerala Enigma [utne.com].
I'm sure there are a lot of benefits. Kerala might be poised to become another IT hub in India. There are computer courses and classes almost EVERYWHERE in India. I remember when I visited my hometown this may when I was on R&R from Iraq - it's changed quite a bit over the past few years. The people are a lot more tech savvy and there's a LOT of interest in Open Source stuff - mainly due to cost benefits. Hopefully Malayalees look to Open Source as an alternative for M$ - it will be a good boost for Open source.
Parent
Malayalam Opensource (Score:5, Informative)
C-DIT develops Malayalam Open Source Software [thehindu.com]
Keli [old-lnxse], a free opentype font for Malayalam (under GNU GPL).
Malayalam Font released as 'free and open' software [hinduonnet.com]
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
It [wikipedia.org] has the highest human development index and a very high standard of living, while it's economic development is sub par.
It has the highest literacy rate in India which reaches 91% [wikipedia.org]. This is much more than the avg literacy rate of India.
They have a very strong socialistic tendencies and is against any sort of monopoly which can affect the people adversely.
One of the prime examples of fusion of captilastic and democratic socialistic views.
People there have very strong views a
now if only the uk used anything but RM pc's (Score:5, Insightful)
schools need to actually do a proper investigation into what'll actually work best rather than the idiot head teacher who's only expertise were woodshop in my case choose based on what they use at home.
Re:now if only the uk used anything but RM pc's (Score:5, Interesting)
the one making the decisions either hasn't a clue there are alternatives, or because they don't WANT
to look for them.
I've worked briefly for one of many schools where the head of IT had seen the benefits, but simply
didn't have enough experience to roll out Linux (or the other alternatives), and the school was wasting
its budget (which they could have spent on keeping me employed there
server system that had all sorts of problems. For example, to install software for the students, the
teachers had to go through a not-always-present admin at the company with the servers, THEN they
had to set the permissions themselves. Security holes and instability was still a problem when I left.
They would have loved to use something like Skolelinux, as it covered all their software needs, or
could easily have some webservices written for what was missing. Unfortunately their contract was paid
for, so they bloody well wanted to get the system working
Parent
Not just schools... (Score:2)
the one making the decisions either hasn't a clue there are alternatives, or because they don't WANT
to look for them.
All kinds of organizations, public and private sector, educational, charitable, and commercial, do the same thing. Big businesses find themselves in nasty traps because they spend huge amounts of money on centralizing their office automation tools but don't bother considering what parts of the company are
Re:now if only the uk used anything but RM pc's (Score:4, Insightful)
"schools need to actually do a proper investigation into what'll actually work best..."
Ah, classic "No True Scotsman Fallacy".
First you're operating under the assumption that they haven't performed a proper investiation.
Second, it wouldn't matter what investigation they did. You want the school to, (ahem), "investigate" until they come up with the answer you've predetermined to be the correct one. It's obvious that you want an answer that doesn't involve Microsoft, therefore any investigation which results in a Microsoft platform being preferred you'll just claim is not a "proper" investigation.
It's entirely reasonable to think that an instutition with political and financial concerns, that are invisible to its attendants, are at play here. You might think their decision is wrong, but how sure are you that the head teacher is even the one pulling the strings? I've seen plenty of situations where the person who appears to be making the decisions is really just doing what their superior has determined they should do. The person who makes decisions is seldom obvious or directly accessible to the underlings.
Parent
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
An awful lot of schools in the UK haven't had RM networks for many, many years. I have been working as IT Support for schools in Norfolk (UK) for the past decade, and have seen only one RM network, and then only in passing as it was thrown out into the skip. The norm is a pure MS based network, with something like Winsuite on top if it is considered that local expertise is insufficient to set up and maintain proper security profiles, etc.
There are reasons for this. Pragmatica
Huh? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
they might have made estimates and came out with figures that show big savings over a longer period of time.
or it could be that actual policy is more sophisticated and longer than the headline.
Re:Huh? (Score:4, Insightful)
I see where you're coming from - but consider, if you're in a position where you need a certain amount of control over the software you're running, then nothing but F/OSS is going to cut the mustard.
Vendor independance, ability to control your own destiny, freedom from the possibility of foreign government intervention, possibility to independantly audit code, etc etc etc.
You can write all of that in your requirements or just 'OSI approved license". *Shrug*, the second is certainly shorter....
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
OSS will only provide you control if you spend a lot of money to develop for it.
You aren't vendor independent if you want support, which you'll need since none of your IT guys will know what to do with it.
Most businesses aren't paranoid enough to waste money on having code audited.
Some companies may be willing to do some support for you, but you have to pay for that.
Re:Huh? (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, that all depends on who you ask, doesn't it? I don't know about school districts, but I can speak first hand about working as a mathematics instructor at a community college and being restricted to using Microsoft products. Things DON'T operate just fine. Have you ever tried to prepare a mathematical document with MS Word that doesn't look like it was scrawled by a 6-year-old? I thought not. It's fucking impossible. So, I went to our "Admin" to request her kind permission to install LaTeX on one of the sacred MS boxen. She did, and things were okay until we got new computers. So, I asked her again to put LaTeX on the new machine. Her response was, "Last time it broke the e-mail client, so I'll not allow it." Ahhhh, the genius and worldly knowledge of the MS slave. So, I prepared my documents at home, exported them to
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
You have my sympathy. I wrote a paper containing equations in TeX. The equations looked very nice. Once he accepted it, the journal editor insisted on WordPerfect so that he could edit it, so I converted it (manually) to WordPerfect. The equations didn't look nearly as nice. The publisher then demanded MS Word, so I converted it again. The printer evidently used the MS word file more-or-less directly, so the published version of the paper is noticeably uglier than the WordPerfect version. By far the nicest
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Governments and goverment agencies often have other goals which they try to satisfy (e.g., "buy american"). Typically that kind of thing will slightly increase the cost, but the other goals are deemed worthy enough to make this acceptable.
There are a number of worthy goals which can be helped by adopting free software, and presumably they judge the increased cost of
Re: (Score:2)
Countries like India and China can think a bit more about the long term. If I was them I wouldn't want to be paying Microsoft/UnitedStates for software forever.
They have lots of reasons... (Score:4, Interesting)
From the article: "A sting operation by Microsoft in October 2005 had not endeared the proprietary software to PC and peripherals dealers."
Remember a while back when Microsoft tried some strong arm tactics of threatening to audit schools who ran anything but Microsoft operating systems. Well.... Payback is a bitch
Seriously though, they are switching because they see the value in FOSS and Microsoft gave then a good look at the dark side of corporate tactics.
Parent
best tool for the job when? (Score:2, Interesting)
You have to take all those factors into consideration. What's the best tool? Will that tool be viable 5 years down the road, after you have committed a lot of time and money into it, or will it turn out to be an expensive white elephant, and just keep costing and costing until such a time as supporting the tool with time and money costs more than getting your original job done? MS wants you to keep the tool as the most important part, forever and ever, and keep shoveling cash
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I forsee (Score:4, Funny)
Re: (Score:2)
If they're doing this after a visit from RMS, I doubt that cost is the only consideration in their decision.
Teach both (Score:2)
skollinux (Score:2)
RMS must be getting better (Score:3, Funny)
I belong to Kerala and know it will work (Score:5, Interesting)
The Govt was always receptive to Stallman - way back in 2001, I was the the capital and RMS had a seminar over there. He had put on a long robe and a CD around his head as halo and announced himself as prophet stallman - or to that effect, I dont remember.
But the crux is people at Kerala are ready to put that extra effort needed for moving on to Linux
Whew! (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
This is education? (Score:4, Insightful)
Any actual educator would want their students to become familiar with many different kinds of computers. They would have a bias against Microsoft, of course, because MS systems don't permit the students to study much of the system's innards. Apple would also be fairly low on the list, since their software's inner workings are somewhat more accessible to students, but not as accessible as most of the alternatives. The list of accessible systems would rate linux highly, of course, but not a lot better than the various *BSD systems or OpenVMS. Or OpenDOS, for that matter. And the iTron system should be on the list, as the world's major open real-time system.
OTOH, I suppose those Americans and Europeans worried about a takeover of the computer industry would applaud this decision. A cohort of students who grow up knowing only linux would be nearly as damaging to India's computer industry as if they knew only MS Windows. OK; not that damaging, but damaging enough.
Of course, enough schools in America and Europe are MS-only right now that we can look forward to a general loss of dominance in computing, as schools graduate students who think that computer expertise consists of knowing how to make Word docs and Powerpoint presentations.
A real educator would more likely reject them all, and set their students to the task of building their own computer system, following the precedents of Tannenbaum and Torvalds (and the Berkeley gang). They'd have a lab with a few of each available system, for showing what has been done and asking "How could we do it better?" But they'd put the emphasis on learning by doing.
But having only linux in a school makes about as much sense as, say, having only Honda in the auto (driving and shop) classes. OTOH, having only Microsoft computers would be like having only drivers' ed classes using Honda; the "shop" classes would only read about cars but would never be permitted to open up an engine compartment or remove a dashboard.
Sorry; that's not a real education program.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Before you can say anything intelligent about what kinds of computers/OSs are needed, you have to be clear as to what you want to use them for. What is appropriate depends on the application.
Re: (Score:2)
Actually, these are primarily infrastructure decisions, and they are properly based on cost/benefit over the lifetime of the infrastructure. It's incorrect to suggest that such decisions are either pro- or anti- education. They are neutral with respect to education.
More correct than the tired auto analogy, I think, would be if the decision were to standardize on a certain type of lighting system for school buildings which only lets students read books printed o
Why restrict it to one platform? (Score:3, Insightful)
I realise that schools have other priorities (eg. teaching reading, math, science, history, etc), and limited resources, not to mention that having computers in schools isn't always primarily to teach about computers. It's a shame, however, that children can't be trained using multiple platforms.
I feel I have a much better appreciation of computers, and feel more comfortable using them, because I appreciate the differences between things like Windows, Linux distros, Macs, Amigas, even DOS, and whatever else. (I'm sure many people here could run off a long list.) I know what I prefer to use for different tasks, and I know why I prefer it..
Restricting teaching to one OS and accustomising students to one way of doing things doesn't seem like preparing them to make their own choices at all.
Think about the training! (Score:2)
They'd have to train all their teachers and administrators in all three OSes. Many of these teachers and admins can barely manage working one type of computer and require heavy training to do that. If you're hoping they'll use these to enhance their curriculum, rather than simply teach kids how to use a compu
Re:Think about the training! (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
Schools are ment to make you a "normal well rounded person", which means teachers often have to teach several subjects (in my primary school we had 6 teachers whole, most of them had a PC in their room but they weren't even remotely familar with them). These teachers are a jack of all trades and a master of none. They don't much care for computers and use them only when they have to and act just like t
Re: (Score:2)
And that's where a lot of teachers are. I've been through an MAEd program, and one at a halfway decent college. A lot of my classmates in that program would have needed a LOT of training to master three OSes. I took a class on technology in curriculu
Re:Think about the children! (Score:4, Funny)
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
Dell is learning the economics of support at a "competitive price" right now as customers have discovered that the quality of Dell's support has slipped.
"And for various reasons, they can produce products at a lower cost than they can be produced in America."
Various reasons? I think you'll find all of those reasons to be related to being a poor country easily exploited by the western world.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
After using Windows only since 3.1 days, last month I had to reinstall XP due to HDD failure.
No problem, I have been good about back-ups, etc., so would just be an afternoon's task, right?
Uhmm...I fell victim to that WGA crap this time around-kept telling me I had pirated software.
My copies of XP Pro (all three of them) are legit retail versions- still have the sales slips.
I have fought with MS many times in the past- I'm a gamer, and frequently format and reinstall the OS (on average about twice