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Linux Desktops Catching On In Education
Posted by
kdawson
on Tue Dec 05, 2006 04:13 PM
from the penguin-in-the-classroom dept.
from the penguin-in-the-classroom dept.
digihome writes to point us to an appreciation of the state of Indiana's project of moving students from Windows desktops to Linux. In about a year, 22,000 students have made the switch, using a variety of Linux distributions. The crn.com writer tried switching his own two children to Linux laptops. From the article: "'So Dad,' [the 10-year-old son] asked. 'What is the difference between Linux and Windows?' I tried to explain but it was a waste of breath. 'What difference do you see?' I asked back. 'Nothing, really.'"
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No reason to switch (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Linux in place of windows (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
If I could drop an application CD in a Linux system and install a Windows app with minimal fuss, that'd pretty much be the end of Windows in my household. I'm not talking about using Wine (which I tried once, didn't take to it and never went back), I'm talking about just running the
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Great, where do we sign up... (Score:5, Interesting)
I work at a school district. I'm the most Linux-saavy of the four IT employees, and I'm still very much a novice. For us to make a transition to Linux, we'd need training and good support. It's been talked about, but sticking with MS has (at least on paper) come out being cheaper for the time being. And that's not even addressing the problem of teachers who are scared enough of Windows, IE, and MS Office; it's pulling teeth to get them to use StarOffice.
So how about it? What's a good way for us to make the leap into Linux without dropping a load of cash?
Re:Great, where do we sign up... (Score:4, Insightful)
I think people who are scared of Windows and other proprietary software, or don't know how to use it, or computers, at all, are prime candidates for teaching free software to. It's people who are already familiar/proficient with proprietary software who have a more or less legitimate case for sticking with it.
Parent
Re:Great, where do we sign up... (Score:4, Insightful)
Do you honestly think that just because children were given a system that comes with 1001 scripting languages they are going to do anything different with it then they did with Windows? Here's a hint, they won't. They don't care that Windows comes with WSH that will run Javascript and VBScript, they don't care that a default Linux install has Perl, Python, Ruby and who knows what else.
Parent
Re:Great, where do we sign up... (Score:4, Insightful)
I did. I programmed in BASIC, Pascal, C before I was 12 and later C++ (and a masochistic teacher gave me a fortran book, but I dropped that after chapter 2) - all before the age of 17. I enjoyed learning these languages, and I know I'm not alone in this. I had options - most kids don't. And I'm not even a "professional" programmer, though I do code for my work occasionally.
Look, I'm not saying all kids are going to scream for joy and poop their pants at the site of a Ruby interpreter, but is there *really* anything the "Windows" kids will be missing out on by running Linux - even if it's just to give those few kids who would use it a chance to code?
I don't see the OP saying he was hired to be a Linux admin and asking for training after.
No, you see the OP saying something like "I don't know Linux and neither do my co-workers here in IT." I'm just saying that not knowing information should not be a barrier to your *consideration* of adoption. If this is a good choice for you (which they said it was, cost of training being the barrier) and this is the only thing holding you back from a proposal, download some Slackware or Gentoo install disks and LEARN.
Parent
Re:Great, where do we sign up... (Score:5, Insightful)
Oddly enough, I was hired to support some 500 Windows-based PCs. I'm also the only person actively advocating the possibility of moving some of those over to Linux. For that to happen, the OTHER THREE PEOPLE IN MY DEPARTMENT would need training.
I know, I know - it's strange when people do things of their own free will to better themselves and their prospects.
And I'm doing that with Linux. But not everyone wants to spend the time to learn it on their own; they're happy with the status quo if they can't get a crash course in good Linux admin.
Have you ever needed to call tech support on your IT-supported desktops for Windows?
Yes. I've been in contact with a Microsoft rep several times about cleaning up our deployment process so that we can make better use of our time during the summer.
If you answered "yes" for anything other than an RMA, you're either an idiot or - well, an idiot..
Ahh, the famed friendliness of the Linux community strikes again.
make your desktop Linux.
Not possible. I have to use Windows-only apps and don't have the time to spend on the clock making them (maybe) work under Linux, nor can I take them home with me since they're network-based. We don't have the budget to buy me extra computers (and I'd object to tax money being spent that way anyway, it could be better used in a classroom) so I don't get any toys.
I would prefer my children be taught on a very versatile operating system which will keep their interest
Yet you seem determined to put me, the only FOSS-friendly voice in an entire school district, off by calling me an idiot.
Parent
Re:Great, where do we sign up... (Score:4, Insightful)
I also have had to call support lines before (and not always MS's) for strange problems that we had at the non-profit I worked at a few years ago. We worked with a lot of specialized programs that, shall we say, had some real issues with our switch to XP when we rolled out new desktop machines. So bad, in fact, that we were reinstalling all of the new machines with Win2k for several months until the companies who made the software figured out what the problems were and fixed them. Otherwise, we wouldn't have been able to work.
We're not even going to get into the server issues. Some of those were grand fun and took entire days to figure out and I am a loooong way from being an idiot.
For what it's worth, good luck in learning Linux. Some parts are easy, some aren't (just like any other OS). The ability to code little scripts to automate things is nice, but that doesn't help your end users a whole lot (though most end users don't need to worry about it anyway). My best advice to you would be to find the local Linux User's Group and start talking to them and going to meetings while playing around with things on a personal machine. Eventually you'll pick things up.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
I, like you, was in a position where I needed a Windows box for a variety of Windows-Only apps I was using, and for a while was quite frustrated as to how
Gates kills kittens (Score:3, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
The difference... (Score:5, Funny)
Son: "What does installed mean?"
Dad: "GO TO YOUR ROOM!"
Son: (mumbles) "I wanted a PS3 not stupid leaf-nuts...."
Just Wait (Score:3, Funny)
Sheesh (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Sheesh (Score:5, Insightful)
If you think that's too hard, well, my nine year-old managed it without assistance. He's not particularly computer savvy.
Not sure why kids would be doing any of this at school, though.
That's a good thing, IMO. I'd think schools would agree.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Way to point out the strengths... (Score:5, Insightful)
I fail to see how this article has anything to do with the pro's and cons of a Linux desktop, since you can do any of those same things on any platform with a web connection and browser with a flash plugin (for pandora).
Let's see what his 10 year old has to say about it when he wants to play the latest PC games, copy music to his iPod using iTMS, and/or run software his friends are running.
I'm sorry, I AM a K-12 admin for a fairly large school system (10,000 desktops) and we use Windows for several non-linux bashing reasons: Exchange, AD, compatibility with other districts, and price/support to staying the course as opposed to rebuilding everything.
My sysadmin desktop of choice? I use FreeBSD and Ubuntu with remote desktop. Just because I can handle it, doesn't mean everyone here can, especially when they use Windows at home. One thing about teachers, you don't rock their boat. Let their classroom be about them and their students and all is well.
Re: (Score:3)
Let's see what his 10 year old has to say about it when he wants to play the latest PC games, copy music to his iPod using iTMS, and/or run software his friends are running.
Do you want kids at school to play the latest PC games, copy music and run their own software?
I'm sorry, I AM a K-12 admin for a fairly large school system (10,000 desktops) and we use Windows for several non-linux bashing reasons: Exchange, AD, compatibility with other districts, and price/support to staying the course as opposed to reb
all the comments... but no real thoughts? (Score:5, Insightful)
All the derisive comments about Linux used to apply to Windows... for a very long time. One of the good things
about that problem is that it taught many of us to work with computers, rather than simply use applications.
Learning to use Excel or Word is not learning to use a computer. Figuring out how to run Doom on a pc is not
learning about computers.
Linux is a GOOD way to learn about computers... Things like network configurations and why you need them, what
is HAL anyway? What are all those programs in the 'running processes' list? Why do I need to block ports?
I would have thought that here on
bad idea here... (Score:4, Interesting)
I'd exchange it anytime for Mac OS or Windows for doing DTP and film.
It's all about who run the Linuxes (Score:3, Interesting)
2. Keep windows- and linux-passes synced to LDAP.
3. Home folders must be auto-mounted. Same folder as in Windows.
4. Be sure to keep the home folders fast in linux. Try DFS or similar on Windows servers to share them (Windows 2003 R2 DFS works great).
5. Be sure to set somebody that actually know how to repackage RPM's to distribute them. You want to configure everything so it works the best way for your educational needs (plugins, settings etc).
6. Try using the same installation procedure for both Windows and Linux, so you can change OS fast on a classroom. PXE, boot a Win-PE or similar. Symantec Ghost can be used for installing both small windows images or linux images. After imaging, be sure that the OS can configure itself automatically without any user input (e.g. get computer name from DNS etc).
7. Do not select nerds that mostly don't like Windows to do this!
Well son (Score:5, Funny)
Well son the big difference is that all your friends will be playing games and posting nude videos of themselves and you'll be loading kernels and learning the intricacies of Sokoban but hey, no viruses in Pine!
Some quick questions on linux software (Score:3, Interesting)
1) Browser (covered by linux)
2) Email (variety of options on linux)
3) Office (open office or something similar)
4) IM client (is there a good linux IM client that interacts with windows messenger?)
5) Greeting card software (anything good on the linux end?)
6) Family tree software (same question)
Linux for Our Kids (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Giving high schoolers Linux is a bad idea (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Giving high schoolers Linux is a bad idea (Score:5, Funny)
Not me. I've been using the same Apple
][+ for almost 30 years! Only thing is
that reading Slashdot in 40 columns is
REALLY rough. Maybe I should've sprung
for an OrangeMicro 80-column card, huh?
Parent
Re:Giving high schoolers Linux is a bad idea (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Giving high schoolers Linux is a bad idea (Score:5, Insightful)
You mean like system administration, web development, software development, high performance computing, physics simulation, embedded systems development, etc. etc.?
I and others seem to have no problems getting and performing these jobs with our *nix experience.
Parent
Re:Giving high schoolers Linux is a bad idea (Score:5, Insightful)
If they're an IT employee then I want them to have experience with multiple platforms or I'm not interested in them. I want to know that they have the kind of mind that drives them crazy until they figure things out. I want people who can't help but think about it when they're at home in the shower.
If they're any other kind of employee, I know that all [credible] operating systems basically do the same things and all of them behave more or less the same way, and they have basically the same things in them, just different places. So I'm trying to hire someone with a brain, as opposed to someone with experience in specific applications. A person who depends on that is not only useless if I switch applications, but may actually require major retraining if I just change versions of the application. I don't want someone who learned by rote, I want someone who figures things out.
Finally, most people clearly do not give a fuck if people have the computer skills the job description calls for. Oh sure, if it's an IT job, you can't get the job unless you have every single bullet point. I don't have any Veritas experience and that has really kicked my ass. But if it's anything else, they don't take the computer requirements seriously anyway. Practically every office job in existence today, including every teaching job for example (the classroom is an office of sorts as well) requires familiarity with Microsoft Office, yet when I have had IT jobs at various places, I have spent an inordinate amount of time explaining to people how to perform basic tasks in Office.
So, no, I do not think there is any significant detriment. And yes, I have thought about it. And no, I am not a Linux fanatic. Although I have used Linux on my primary system at various times (and in fact the only working computer I currently own and used on a regular basis is a laptop running ubuntu) at work I have two Windows XP systems and a Dual G5 on my desk. I could put Linux on a system, and use it; I could use vmware to run any recalcitrant windows programs. I don't because the software I need to use most often is Windows-only and it would make no fucking sense. I do support linux, because I think it has the best chance to give me what I want, at least out of the current list of mainline operating systems.
Application support is a real issue, although frankly 99% of the time there is a working FoSS alternative to whatever one is doing on Windows. There are some real exceptions, such as high-end content creation, but they are gradually going away as software with that functionality is introduced for Linux. Even video editing is finally coming into view.
Driver support, however, is a non-issue. When you purchase hardware for windows, you buy hardware that is windows certified. If you want to purchase hardware for Linux, you should do the same thing. Barring that, you must do your homework. All major computer vendors are happy to provide you systems with hardware known to work with linux, and typically it does not come at a cost premium. You simply must know what you're buying. Any substantially older hardware, as is common in schools and the like, is almost certainly supported already, with the possible exception of some wifi hardware.
TCO is a combination of all of these issues, but Linux requires less maintenance/attention than Windows does. I don't think that's even really an arguable point. Assuming that you have planned intelligently, Linux will pretty much ensure you a lower TCO. Planning is where most things fall down, frankly. Measure twice, cut once...
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Giving high schoolers Linux is a bad idea (Score:5, Interesting)
Are you worried about a *nix-raised child being unable to handle a Windows desktop because the office uses only Word/Excel/Powerpoint?
Maybe you mean that someone raised to administer a *nix machine/system wouldn't be capable of understanding how to use a sophisticated OS like Windows?
Maybe you are concerned that someone who is raised in a *nix environment will be incapable of writing software for the Windows platform?
I can't speak about the third---I don't write code---but sweet enola gay son those first two suggestions are obvious moose-kaka. I mean, are you really suggesting that someone who understands how to use Open Office couldn't figure out MS Word? (Or OMG they use firefox on BOTH platforms.) Or that someone who knows how to use the zsh shell will be incapable of getting up to speed with an ugly-ass GUI?
Do you not see how ridiculous that sounds? If the computer-illiterates around me can figure out Windows and get their work done (and they do!), then I'm pretty sure that someone who understands how to use *nix should be able to get up to speed.
Parent
Re:Giving high schoolers Linux is a bad idea (Score:5, Informative)
P.S. It's literate, not litterate.
Parent
Funny... (Score:5, Insightful)
I bought my wife a Toshiba, which came with WinXP (despite my protestations). I thought I'd just let her use XP (non-administrator) until it got too messed up, then reformat using Linux. To my surprise, she complained the first day. She hated all of the preinstalled software asking her to buy this and that. She didn't even know what McAfee was, let alone want to deal with the SUBSCRIBE NOW!! popups.
I told her I could fix it, and put Ubuntu Edgy (pre-release, even!) on there. She's perfectly happy with it now. I asked her if she likes it better or worse than the other (XP), and she replied that it was exactly the same, but without the annoying popups.
As an aside, my 6-year-old is a whiz with XUbuntu on his Dell 700MHz machine.
I think we Linux geeks have "failure to launch" syndrome. We worry about every little detail and think that everyone's going to hate our product, find it buggy/insufficient/unfamiliar, yadda yadda. The fact of the matter is that your average person probably won't notice much of a difference in most cases, and will usually just cope with the ones they do, just like they've always done with Windows.
Windows isn't better or bug free. It's just a different set of annoyances and insufficiencies that people have learned to ignore and work around. If people are going to learn to ignore bugs, maybe they can ignore ones that will be fixed quicker. If they're going to work around inadequacies, maybe they can work around ones that they have the potential to implement themselves, given the aptitude.
Education is a great stage to get kids acquainted with Linux. By the time these kids are teens and adults, Linux will have progressed immensely, and they probably WILL be using Linux on corporate desktops. You're not thinking fourth-dimensionally, Marty!
Parent
Re:Funny... (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:Funny... (Score:4, Interesting)
So Linux has caught up to the Mac circa 1984?
I kid, but I couldn't help but think of the Mac commercial with the little girl operating a Mac...or was it a Lisa?
Hmmm
My main point was that people can learn and get used to whatever they're given. Most modern OSes are pretty good that way. The main problem is that many adults are technophobes, or, more likely, change-ophobes. They don't like anything "different". Kids aren't like that.
As my wife shows, adults who aren't afraid (or who couldn't care less) can also switch with minimal effort.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Giving high schoolers Linux is a bad idea (Score:4, Insightful)
Years and years ago, I bumped into my old elementary school principal. He asked me to come back and talk to some of the teachers about using computers in their classrooms. Every teacher I spoke to said the same thing, "We have to teach kids not to be afraid of computers."
Now, I grew up using a computer--a multimillion dollar mainframe. I was never "afraid" of using it. As I mentioned to the principal, "These are kids who hang upside-down from steel jungle gyms. They aren't afraid of anything--least of all a hunk of plastic." It is adults who wasted time with the whole concept of "computer literacy" because they had to go back and relearn this stuff, so the kids obviously had to as well.
Where computers work in the classroom is the same way that they work in business: they enhance productivity. Whether that means they can assist in communicating concepts that the teacher is trying to communicate or they can remove some of drudgework of school (eg, writing a paper, drawing graphs) is unimportant. The computers are tools for the student, like pencils, pens, notebook paper, graph paper, etc. They are not a raison d'etre in of themselves.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Spectrum vs C64,
Atari ST vs Amiga
PC vs Mac
new PC vs old pc
Windows 3.1 vs W95
etc etc etc
You are right about the limited amount of Linux specific games at the moment, we need a resolution that does not involve simply running PC games.
Would kids care if they had to reboot their PC to play the best game in existance?
What benefit would you have booting from CD and running a cut down linux kernel for the game?
Secure access, you kn
Re:Giving high schoolers Linux is a bad idea (Score:4, Insightful)
some of my favorite games run on Linux, but a person of your unrefined tastes would probably not enjoy them.
Parent
Re:Giving high schoolers Linux is a bad idea (Score:4, Interesting)
And while you are at it? What defines refined taste in games? I think taste for games, music, beauty, is mostly subjective.
I think kids should be taught as many operating systems as possible. Sure I use Linux, Mac, and sometimes frit around with the BSD(free).
Some windows only games are good.
And sometimes, just sometimes, a net connection and windows will inspire someone to code, learn linux, and I would bet 80% of the newer users here started with windows.
Baby steps.
Puto
Parent
OK, I'll byte... (Score:4, Informative)
If you're looking for a beauty contest, Linux wins hands down as long as you are using something newer than Redhat 3!
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
- virtual desktops - just LOVE them
- gnome-vfs - seemlessly edit files/watch vids/listen to music over ssh/ftp/smb/whatever
- powerful terminal for automated tasks - not much to explain
- software with clean interface - don't you just hate those vendor-specific apps on windows of which everyone looks as if it was from a different story?
- no bloatware out-of-box - when you buy laptop you usually get system preloaded with trials,
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Untrue. It is quite common for users to have personal scripts and programs.
You are correct. Maybe I should have said "install the software (read: adware) that they downloaded last night that puts the pretty kittens all over their desktop and changes their screensaver" And I probably should have clarified that, in the rare even that these kids are writing their own apps at home, without root access, it won't matter what they run or install because they can't dick up the sys
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Maybe we should begin touting Neko and xscreensaver as the great advantages of Linux... damn, we have learned nothing from the marketing people...
Re:clearly they're the same. (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
definition of difference (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent