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Winemaker Drinks To Linux

Posted by ScuttleMonkey on Fri Aug 19, 2005 10:49 AM
from the i'll-drink-to-that dept.
Linux Business IT
An anonymous reader writes "Australian winemaker De Bortoli is a firm believer in Linux. CIO Bill Robertson says he's 'bemused by any notion that Linux is poorly supported in the enterprise since he has never had any trouble finding support for De Bortoli's open-source systems', and says that those IT managers having trouble simply 'aren't looking hard enough.' There are also some other good case studies here -- telecommuncations provider TransACT, online hotel booking service Wotif, engineering contractor Coates and investment and funds management group Aviva."
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  • Yeah, but... (Score:3, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 19 2005, @10:53AM (#13355643)

    A lot of people in this country pooh-pooh Australian table wines. This is a pity, as many fine Australian wines appeal not only to the Australian palette, but also to the cognoscenti of Great Britain.

    "Black Stump Bordeaux" is rightly praised as a peppermint flavoured Burgundy, whilst a good "Sydney Syrup" can rank with any of the world's best sugary wines.

    "Chateau Bleu", too, has won many prizes; not least for its taste, and its lingering afterburn.

    "Old Smokey, 1968" has been compared favourably to a Welsh claret, whilst the Australian wino society thouroughly recommends a 1970 "Coq du Rod Laver", which, believe me, has a kick on it like a mule: 8 bottles of this, and you're really finished -- at the opening of the Sydney Bridge Club, they were fishing them out of the main sewers every half an hour.

    Of the sparkling wines, the most famous is "Perth Pink". This is a bottle with a message in, and the message is BEWARE!. This is not a wine for drinking -- this is a wine for laying down and avoiding.

    Another good fighting wine is "Melbourne Old-and-Yellow", which is particularly heavy, and should be used only for hand-to-hand combat.

    Quite the reverse is true of "Chateau Chunder", which is an Appelachian controle, specially grown for those keen on regurgitation -- a fine wine which really opens up the sluices at both ends.

    Real emetic fans will also go for a "Hobart Muddy", and a prize winning "Cuiver Reserve Chateau Bottled Nuit San Wogga Wogga", which has a bouquet like an aborigine's armpit.

  • Here it goes... (Score:5, Funny)

    by thc69 (98798) on Friday August 19 2005, @10:53AM (#13355644) Homepage Journal
    Cue the wine jokes...

    Does his wine run linux? Imagine a beowulf cluster of linux wine bottles.

    Does he offer wine packages for many distributions?

    Will his wine run Internet Explorer in Linux?

  • Ambiguous Headlines (Score:5, Funny)

    by NoTheory (580275) on Friday August 19 2005, @10:53AM (#13355651)
    Of course, wine makers [winehq.com] support linux [winehq.com]! Oh wait. wrong wine.

  • Wine? (Score:4, Funny)

    by ndansmith (582590) on Friday August 19 2005, @10:54AM (#13355658)
    So wait, are they a wine company or a Linux gaming company?
  • I don't doubt the ability of Linux to be everything a company needs to run their software. After all, it is based on Unix, which was designed for ease of use, and has been standardized upon across many industries. Linux is absolutely a useful operating system, a great, working cog in the networks across the world.

    But support is one of those things that ought not be something that ought to be sought "hard". Support should be easily purchased from service companies dedicated to the task. Support should be available from any number of certified engineers who have made it a priority to understand the system. Support should not be intricately tied to Google (though it certainly has its place there), but rather it should be supported by professionals.

    And really, in all but the most remote locations, it is. Linux isn't difficult to put into place because support is difficult to find. On the contrary, it is easy to find companies willing to provide support. The drawback is that typically these services come at a price higher than similar service contracts with Microsoft support professionals.

    Then again, you get what you pay for.
    • I agree. I personally don't mind finding information for what I need to do. But there are alot of others who would rather not. Linux isn't for everyone. So basically all this guy was saying is that Linux works well for him. His statement that those people that Linux isn't "for" aren't looking hard enough is very short sighted.

      • His statement that those people that Linux isn't "for" aren't looking hard enough is very short sighted.

        It might have been, were that his statement. It wasn't though. He said people who can't find Linux support aren't looking hard enough. That is a really polite and nice way to say that they are the most incompetent computer person you could possibly have hired or they are intentionally not finding it because they want to create a non-existant problem either so they don't have to learn, so they can kee

        • Their job is to purchase services from the first contractor that walks up to their desk with something to sell. You're suggesting that they should pick up a phone and call someone who offers services - like Red Hat or IBM. I mean, who the FUCK can find IBM? Their website is some three letter acronym that nobody can remember. And the website acronym is the same three letters as the company name, so forget about putting it into a bookmark. If you can remember the three letter acronym that stands for 'IBM' then you could have just typed the fucking thing.

          They don't do that. Windows service providers magically appear in front of their desk. And all an IT manager has to do that that point is buy something. What could be easier than that? Linux obviously can't compete with that kind of boot-licking service.

    • Re:"Looking hard enough" for support (Score:5, Insightful)

      by kevin_conaway (585204) on Friday August 19 2005, @11:07AM (#13355773) Homepage
      Looking hard enough isn't an answer.

      Sometimes, people NEED to be able to have support if something is broken. Waiting for a reply on a mailing list or hoping you don't piss off an op on IRC just isn't good enough.

      This reason is why Redhat is so successful with their paid support.
      • I can truthefully say that I rarely get my support from a mailing list or IRC. Actually I just use google. 99.9% of the time it has the info I need and I'm intelligent enough to understand it. IT workers are paid to "think". Solve the problem. If I have to solve a windows server problem I hit the msdn website. If I have to solve a linux problem I hit google. both get me the answers I need in roughly the same amount of time. Oh and one other thing at least when I hit Linux HOWTO sites they haven't moved the content and forgotten to redirect you to the right spot. How many broken links are on msdn now? Or maybe that's just me.
    • I'm guessing that he was thinking more along the line of the HR droid who asks the rest of the office "anyone know how to use this Linux thingy?" and concludes from the negative responses that Linux support is terrible.
    • I understand the arguments.

      One problem is that "linux" is pretty fragmented, knowing the ins and outs of several distributions isn't necessarily an easy task.

      I think Linux is great for large organizations that can employ several admins that can weather the occasional loss of an individual administrator and leave plenty of time to train new admins to the way the servers are maintained.

      Smaller organizations would be screwed if one of their admins quit and outside support couldn't come in and keep things up.

      On
    • There is plenty of support for Linux in the enterprise, though. Novell/SuSE, Red Hat and IBM all have various support offerings. HP supports much of their enterprise hardware on Linux. And let's not knock Google. As a support professional, Google is often one of my *first* resources should I encounter something I don't have an immediate answer for -- for ANY platform (Unix, Linux, Apple, Windows). Even if I don't find the answer immediately, I'll often find useful reminders or sparks of inspiration of t
    • I think when he says "Not looking hard enough", he means not looking at all, or asking Microsoft-only companies. You can get Linux support from the first computer company in the Fortune 500, so you have to be pretty clueless to not find it.
        • Well the ease I was discussing was between GUIs and cml. Not OS Foo that is GUI driven and OS Bar that is cml driven.

          A particular GUI may be harder to use than a particular cml.

          Is windows harder to admin servers than Unix? perhaps. does it have to be? no. It's just how 'they' are.

          Imagine two scenarios. You are told to lock down two server networks. One is windows one is unix. You got to the windows machine, see an icon on the desktop or in the start menu called 'Manage My Network' and click it to run

  • Fluf (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Flamesplash (469287) on Friday August 19 2005, @10:58AM (#13355692) Homepage Journal
    This is a crappy case study amounting to little more information than "Company A uses Linux well for what they do." If this is a real case study it should go into details not just "hey it works."

    If this is supposedly marketing then show me a case study for a company using X and I can find one for a company using it's competition Y.

  • word! (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 19 2005, @10:59AM (#13355696)
    "and says that those IT managers having trouble simply 'aren't looking hard enough.'"

    word!
    Yes, it's a pain in the ass to go on IRC or users groups or read, post and interact with people, learning sucks,.. and it's hard too.
    just someone, make it work for me.
     

  • Isn't this EXACTLY the point?!? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by fzammett (255288) on Friday August 19 2005, @11:00AM (#13355705) Homepage
    "...those IT managers having trouble simply 'aren't looking hard enough.'"

    Isn't that EXACTLY the point of buying from a vendor? So that I can EASILY and QUICKLY get the support I need WITHOUT HAVING TO LOOK FOR IT?!?

    I can see the MS and Sun and IBM ad campaigns next week..

    "Choose XXXX because our support staff is a phonecall away, 24/7x365... Or make sure you have a good newsgroup feed and bookmark all the good OSS sites because that's your other option!"

    Ugh. With friends like this wino, who needs enemeis?
    • I think he was intending this to mean companies such as Red Hat or Novell. Both are places to go for support that don't involve bookmarks.

    • Re:Isn't this EXACTLY the point?!? (Score:5, Interesting)

      by WinterSolstice (223271) on Friday August 19 2005, @11:28AM (#13355942)
      Well, considering the support we have had from IBM Tivoli, I'd rather rely on OSS. We have been unable to take reliable backups for 4 months, and had a "critsit" ticket for 3 months. IBM couldn't care less, and couldn't be providing worse service if they tried.

      For the money, just as easy to go OSS.

      -WS
    • "Isn't that EXACTLY the point of buying from a vendor? So that I can EASILY and QUICKLY get the support I need WITHOUT HAVING TO LOOK FOR IT?!?>"

      You have a valid argument. However, I must point out that once you've started to gain experience, you really don't have to look too far. In fact, I have better luck receiving help from the open source community for free than I do some companies that I've bought software from (e.g. Veritas). Perhaps surprising is that I actually prefer to use the Microsoft

    • RTFA (Score:5, Informative)

      by xstonedogx (814876) <xstonedogx@gmail.com> on Friday August 19 2005, @11:48AM (#13356095)
      It wasn't even a direct quote.

      From TFA:
      "In the early days we bought a support contract from HP, and they've provided us with gold-plated support all along," Robertson says. "All in all, five external organisations have provided support to De Bortoli's open-source software -- we've had no trouble finding help, and no trouble implementing on-site training."

      It sounds like he is saying those that are having trouble aren't looking at all.
    • Well, if you want it quick and easy and don't want to do any research.. then why not just outsource the whole freakin IT/helpdesk department?

      Computers are complex tools. Without knowledgable staff its impossible to get a custom form-fit solution to your business. Other businesses care more about the support contract and the money than your overall working efficiency, security, upgrade path, etc. They're not going to do the research for you, they'll just pass on the baton to the next guy while getting ju

  • I think it's obvious (Score:3, Funny)

    by Adult film producer (866485) <van@i2pmail.org> on Friday August 19 2005, @11:00AM (#13355710)
    that this boss is not a psychopath...

  • Oblig. Simpsons Quote (Score:5, Funny)

    by bigtallmofo (695287) on Friday August 19 2005, @11:00AM (#13355711)
    Homer: Every time I learn something new, it pushes some old stuff out of my brain. Remember when I took that home wine-making course and I forgot how to drive?

    Marge: Homer, you were drunk!

    Homer: And how!

  • Support is overrated (Score:5, Interesting)

    by totallygeek (263191) on Friday August 19 2005, @11:00AM (#13355713) Homepage
    Ten years ago, the biggest trouble I was having selling Linux solutions was the support issue. My rebuttal then was, "How often do you call Sun, Microsoft, or Novell?" Now, there are tons of company support outlets, and Linux is much more accepted by businesses. But, the focus has now shifted to, "Who can I get to support this?" Quality support people can be difficult to find. Of course, I hate always hearing that I might get hit by a Mack truck...

    • Re:Support is overrated (Score:5, Interesting)

      by bigtallmofo (695287) on Friday August 19 2005, @11:05AM (#13355758)
      Ten years ago, the biggest trouble I was having selling Linux solutions was the support issue. My rebuttal then was, "How often do you call Sun, Microsoft, or Novell?"

      Unfortunately, perception is and always has been reality to a certain extent. Remember the old adage, "Nobody ever got fired for buying IBM."? It's getting better, but to a certain extent it's true of Microsoft now.

      Going Linux might be considered a radical idea with big risks. If the slightest thing goes wrong, you might be looking for another job.

      If you go Microsoft which is perceived as "the natural choice" by some, if something goes wrong, not many bosses would blame you.

      This doesn't make it right, but it is reality for many.
      • Remember the old adage, "Nobody ever got fired for buying IBM."? It's getting better, but to a certain extent it's true of Microsoft now.

        Well, I'm old enough now (42) to remember a certain site in London, which had what was then a significant investment in Burroughs kit.

        A certain newly recruited IT manager did indeed get the chop for recommending switching to IBM. I was contracting there at the time, and I remember thinking it served him right.

    • Re:Support is overrated (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward
      I don't really understand your post, but I'll agree that support is overrated. My place of employment is a Windows/Novell shop. My boss is scared of anything that isn't commercial (he even considers "shareware" to be "on par" with freeware) because he can't buy support for it.

      Meanwhile, we have several applications that we (by requirement) bought from the lowest bidder. I've spent many a day and night trying to get ahold of a competent support person (even when we've paid big bucks for onsite service wit
    • The quality of support in linux land really varies. I have called Redhat for some really steep issues deep in the kernel.

      The support was mediocre at best. I can tell the support guy was swamped beyond belief. I truely felt bad for him. If I had no urgency to call, I wouldn't even bother.

      At the same time, Redhat support is supposedly one of the more established services out there. So I wonder... quantity over quality...

    • The thing is, your customers were basically right. Your (former?) belief that support contracts are a waste of money because the customers rarely if ever call on Microsoft/Sun/Novell ignores the main reason why someone gets a support contract: it's a hedge against their systems failing. It's like claiming that fire insurance is a waste of money because fires are extremely rare. Yes, they're rare, but if you have a fire and don't have insurance, you are SOL.

      All the posts here about how newsgroups, IRC, and

  • Just another argument for windows (Score:4, Funny)

    by gothzilla (676407) on Friday August 19 2005, @11:03AM (#13355735)
    Having trouble finding support? Use Windows and you'll have a million windows techs begging for a minimum wage job.
  • I'm surprised nobody's stated the obvious yet:

    Coders drink to Linux.

  • Not looking hard enough? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by HangingChad (677530) on Friday August 19 2005, @11:05AM (#13355760) Homepage
    and says that those IT managers having trouble simply 'aren't looking hard enough.'

    I would argue that they're not looking at all. Not only are they not looking, they're not taking sales calls from companies that do support and customize OSS apps. They're making an effort not to know.

    • I could see an IT manager haning up the phone going. I CAN'T STAND ALL THESE PEOPLE TRYING TO PUSH LINUX SOLUTIONS!! Everyone knows that nobody uses linux and you can't find anyone who will support or create 3rd partly Linux solutions.

      The real problem to Linux migration are corprate policies. After being burned in the past of being to open and running to many platforms that they couldn't maintain their IT. They decided to go we will just choose a platform and stick with it. And they did and they still do.

  • Of course (Score:3, Funny)

    by Approaching.sanity (889047) on Friday August 19 2005, @11:07AM (#13355772) Homepage
    He can find linux users to work for him! He makes booze!
  • >...bemused by any notion that Linux is poorly supported in the enterprise since he has never had any trouble finding support for De Bortoli's open-source systems'

    In today's world, it isn't the truth that matters. What people perceive as the truth is what matters. I will give a few examples.

    When I was young, I thought Africans are black because of the "intense heat" on their continent. As such, I'd think twice before visiting. How wrong I was! There are places on the continent that are cooler than my

  • Australia eh? (Score:3, Funny)

    by dduardo (592868) on Friday August 19 2005, @11:09AM (#13355788)
    *LATER TODAY AT OSDL HEADQUARTERS*

    Intern: We've detected a trademark disturbance.
    Linus: Who is this time?
    Intern: It's De Bortoli winemakers of Australia.
    Linus: Tell Maddog to unleash the enraged pengiuns on their grape fields.
    Intern: Right away Sir.
  • I think I see a lot of Linux-is-great stories here and Microsoft-is-bad stories here.

    Gotta start keeping score and start ignoring my customers so I'll know what to buy.

  • After a few... (Score:2, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Advisory effects against the consumption of too much Linux wine.

    After the first glass, you'll start believing that Linux on the Desktop is a good idea.

    After the second glass, you start to think Laura DiDio is hot, at least when she's not talking.

    After the third glass, you find the Linus Torvalds blurb on how he pronounces "Linux" once again mildly amusing.

    After the fourth glass, all your interfaces look like Windows- and you like it!

    After the ffith galss, you wlil wsih you had a bettar spllchekr for Linux.

    A
  • change
    free as in beer
    to
    free as in wine
    won't we?

  • Free (Score:3, Funny)

    by maelstrom (638) on Friday August 19 2005, @11:22AM (#13355897) Homepage Journal
    So is this free as in wine or free as in speech?

  • Firm believer? Take it with a grain of salt. A firm believer would spend his time making apps *on top of* linux, rather than spend all his time writing a *windows* compatibility app.

    Note to mods: this post is insightful, not funny.

  • The support issue (Score:5, Insightful)

    by dlefavor (725930) on Friday August 19 2005, @11:53AM (#13356137)
    As long as there are people willing to pay for support, there will be people willing to do it for money.

    The thing about support of Open Source Software is that quality support demands above all else a stable product. No, not one that doesn't crash very often, one that doesn't change very often. Every change a programmer makes to a program introduces a risk of retraining for the support staff. The last thing a customer wants to hear from Technical Support is "your programmers changed the source and that's why it doesn't work any more.".

    That's why it's important for enterprises to keep programmers away from the programs unless the company is prepared to support itself. This is not a problem for proprietary software because the programmers don't have the source code. For open source, though, the temptation to "change that routine so it works better in our environment" is pretty overwhelming and absolutely toxic to the support scenario.

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