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4 Linux Distros Compared To Win XP, Mac OS X
Posted by
timothy
on Wed Feb 02, 2005 04:03 AM
from the from-a-certain-point-of-view dept.
from the from-a-certain-point-of-view dept.
Morf writes "The Australian Consumers? Association has evaluated Xandros, Linspire, Mandrake Discovery and SUSE personal and compared them to Mac OS X and Windows XP in its latest Computer CHOICE magazine. The article is very much focused on "mums and dads", and concludes Linux is just about ready for consumers, although installing new software could pose some problems for those who aren't really computer savvy. The report is available free for a short time."
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"Consumers?"? (Score:5, Funny)
Brought to you by the Puzzled Slashdot? Readers Group.
Re:"Consumers?"? (Score:3, Insightful)
Someone tell the Australians that the rest of the English speaking world avoids apostrophes in titles and proper nouns.
Re:"Consumers?"? (Score:4, Funny)
(Shut up you pedants: I know it's a charset issue, but where's the humor in that?)
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Australian Consumers? (Score:5, Insightful)
They may not be as enthusastic as your average slashdotter but the fact that they even did this comparison means Linux is getting consideration by people who are very quality sensitive. Also retirees who like to fiddle with PC's and photo's but don't have heaps of cash will read it next year in the doctors waiting room.
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Re:"Consumers?"? (Score:4, Funny)
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Re:"Consumers?"? (Score:4, Funny)
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Not for long... (Score:5, Funny)
The report is available ... for a short time
Okay, which one of you hosers told them we were coming?
Hope again (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Hope again (Score:4, Interesting)
Putting aside whether man is suitable or not for non-techies I'd say this would be easy enough to do.
Granted easier for the User than for the people putting together the distro/software/documentation. But even then it shouldn't be too hard.
Plus whether man or a graphical help function I'd love to be able to switch to a less/more complex version sometimes.
Two sets of documentation. Help software defaults to the simple version but a simple flag can access the more in-depth version. Similarly a simple configuration file could be used to make the more complex version default for more experienced users.
Probably still not perfect, but would allow for less experienced users to immediately get less-confusing help when needed, and the more-experienced ones would be more able to handle the steps required to switch to the in-depth help. It'd probably be a real pig to implement though.
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Re:Hope again (Score:4, Insightful)
*throws hands in the air* Awwww fuck it then!!! We might as well just call it quits.
Rather then complain about other peoples computers, why don't you just concentrate on keeping YOUR server safe. Don't expect joe-shmoe to ever be as tech savvy as everyone else on Slashdot. It just isn't going to happen. Computers are supposed to be just a tool for the public, not a software experiment.
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Re:Hope again (Score:4, Insightful)
I need usable man pages. I need all that complex docs. I'm not a wizard who already knows everything by heart. I want documentation, not dumbed-down text asking me if the computer is turned on.
What those Joe Schmoe users need, is a clickable interface with anything that could make them shoot themselves in the foot carefully hidden. What I need, is a system that allows me to shoot my own foot if I tell it so. A system that doesn't try to pamper me, but does what I say -- without standing in my way. It needs to provide some examples and documentation that is not completely opaque -- and that documentation would be too dumbed down for those more skilled than me.
In general, my goals are opposite to the goals of Grandma Jill. I, being selfish, can't stand if I get hurt due to someone trying to make it easier for grandmas.
I, a technical user, need a system fit for technical users.
Grandmas need a system that's dumbed down.
It's hard to have both in a single system, so any compromise will hurt both sides.
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Re:Hope again (Score:4, Insightful)
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Re:Hope again (Score:5, Insightful)
You, my friend, need to find a good technical writer.
It's called inverted pyramid writing and goes something like this:
You simply provide a sidebar nagivation in the summary page that takes you to the level you want.
The "dumb down" argument is nothing more than the desperate flailings of ego trying to still prove to the world that it is justified.
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Linux has been ready for a long time now (Score:3, Informative)
Administration shouldn't be major for the desktop (Score:5, Insightful)
I really don't think that users being able to administer their systems should be considered a serious problem when considering linux on the desktop.
In recent months I've come to believe that Linux, and many other unix-like systems for that matter, are not only ready for the desktop and have been for some time, they're near perfect for it. The major catch (apart from that whole software compatability thing, perhaps) is that they're only perfect when someone who knows what they're doing is adminstrating the system.
I administer my own home linux system, and I like it that way absolutely, but I wouldn't reccommend it to any of my friends. Sure, I could get them set up and rurning, but every so often they'd want to change something and would need help.
At my university, we run a department network of NetBSD machines, and they're administered brilliantly to the point where new students who are used to Windows can get started in using them for many things without a lot of problems. The security's locked down to a reasonable extent so it's hard for any badly written software the seriously break any of the workstations, but if we want something changed then there's a responsive team of administrators who'll look at providing what's needed. Most importantly, the workstations are reliable and they're looked after by experts who know everything that's on them inside out. Just like my home machine, unixes very rarely break or collapse if they're administrated well.
My point is that Linux is very ready for the desktop, but people shouldn't be expected to administer their own systems. Luckily, though, Linux has several other very handy things going for it:
What surprises me is that nobody yet seems to have seriously jumped into a potentially great business opportunity of offering remote linux administrations for home users. Essentially it'd be linux by subscription, ironically enough.
I really do know lots of people who use Windows because they're afraid of everything else, and they only even try to administer it and understand the issues because they have no other option. Really they'd rather concentrate on actually doing things with their PC, and would often be happy to pay someone else to administer it if the price were reasonable.
The business would be in providing a remote service which, once a customer's home PC had been set up in an appropriately standard configuration, would offer the service of administering the PC remotely. For instance, if the customer wants new software, they phone up and ask for it. An admin logs in, installs the package, and sets up any appropriate configuration. Perhaps every so often, administrators come along and upgrade whatever software is installed, probably (usually) keeping the configurations within bounds that are known to work on a large scale. Perhaps they even provide conversion services for things like Word files, in cases when something like OpenOffice simply won't handle it properly.
On occasion
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Re:Linux has been ready for a long time now (Score:4, Insightful)
That is not where the problem lies. The additional problems in ascending order of size are --
1 -- (for the non-geek mum/dad user) getting used to the CLI
2 -- (for quite a lot of others too) figuring out what to do if
apt-get install programx
coughs over a dependency issue and shows up with screeds of error messages.
I'd be quite interested to read your simple advice to get over problem 2!
-wb-
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compatible hardware quote :) (Score:4, Informative)
Jokes aside, I bought (ie assembled at home) a PC which I picked off the hardware HOWTO. Ended up being a charm to get Linux working on it. I would like to call that Voting with your Money.
These days you should check TuxMobil [tuxmobil.org] or some other Linux site rather than just the hardware vendor's site for the compatibility from the wild.In breif summary (Score:3, Informative)
Microsoft Windows XP Home $324
Xandros Desktop OS 2.5 Deluxe $135
Apple Mac OS X and Microsoft Windows XP were easier to use than any of the Linux distributions tested - but not by much.
Mac OS X lost marks for poor help files but was easier to use for most common tasks. Windows XP had excellent help files but scored lower for installation, which was complicated and time-consuming. You may also need to spend extra money on additional software for common tasks.
Xandros Desktop OS was the top performing Linux distribution. It was easy to install with very good help files but was more complicated to use for tasks such as burning a DVD and viewing digital photos. It didn't include DVD burning software and you need to find the correct folder for photo and movie files. However, at $135, it's a considerably cheaper option than Windows XP or Mac OS X.
None of the operating systems are ideal, however.
* The Linux distributions fell short on some common tasks including installing new software, setting up an internet connection and the availability of help files and instructions.
* Mac OS X could have more comprehensive help files and we'd like to see the inbuilt firewall switched on by default.
* Although Windows XP usually comes pre-installed on computers, the installation process could be easier, as could some of the common tasks such as playing a DVD.
We'd also like to see inbuilt antivirus software in all operating systems -- the tested operating systems don't currently include a virus checker.
In brief
* Microsoft Windows is the dominant operating system.
* The Linux-based operating systems we tested aren't quite as easy to use as Windows XP and Mac OS X, but they're not far behind.
* Linux fell short on common tasks such as installing new software.
Overall, however, Linux has improved in leaps and bounds over the years. It's probably not suitable for beginners yet but if you're a confident computer user, any of the tested distributions should suit you.
Prices (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:In breif summary (Score:4, Funny)
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Re:In breif summary (Score:5, Insightful)
On the flip side, on all systems, having the firewall enabled often hinders legitimate uses of the system, such as dcc send/chat on irc, or p2p apps etc, so having the firewall enabled by default on osx would actually cause problems while not providing any benefit.
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I installed Ubuntu on my Dad's computer (Score:5, Interesting)
So I decided to make my Dad switch from WinXP to Ubuntu, installed Abiword and gnumeric (oo.org was to slow on his P4 with 96MB RAM), setted them as default editors, copied all his Documents over from the Win partition and made a shortcut on the desktop to his Documents folder.
He really likes Ubuntu. At first he was a bit bored because he had to learn some new things (for example the "Applications" menu is on the top left, and not on the bottom), but he got the changes quickly and adapted to the new OS in a few days.
I asked him yesterday if he likes more Windows or Linux now that he tryed both, and he told me that it makes no difference for him, as long as he can use spreadsheets, write letters, read his emals and organize his pictures like he did before (btw. he loves gPhoto and Gimp is his new favorite program
So to him it makes no difference, but now I don't have to clean his computer from spyware and viruses every few weeks.
So for me (and for my dad) Linux IS READY for the desktop. At least Ubuntu is.
Re:I installed Ubuntu on my Dad's computer (Score:5, Insightful)
I installed Ubuntu on my gf's grandmother's laptop, a Toshiba Tecra A2. Setup was a breeze. It detected everything right down to the wireless eth card.
I also stuck a "My Documents" shortcut on the Desktop so the other Windows people woulnd't get lost and in addition made it boot straight into her profile with no password.
That was a few weeks ago, and I saw her the other day quite happily looking at photos of the grandkids and playing a mpeg clip with mplayer. Keep in mind she's 80 odd and has never used a computer before. She wanted to play some games also, so I stuck shortcuts on the desktop to Solitaire and minesweeper.
After using Ubuntu, my gf's dad now wants it on his computer because he says "Windows XP is too hard to use" and he "really likes it how everything makes sense on Ubuntu". Hmmm a logical desktop OS where everything Just Works(tm) is the exact reason I use Ubuntu on my desktop.
Is Ubuntu ready for the desktop? You bet your ass it is.
PS If anyone's interested you can read the blog entry here [cr0n.net]
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Re:I installed Ubuntu on my Dad's computer (Score:4, Insightful)
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Re:I installed Ubuntu on my Dad's computer (Score:4, Interesting)
Apart from being very clearly laid out, the Ubuntu installer is easy to follow and takes you through the installation process fairly painlessly.
Now of course someone who's never used a computer before is not going to install an operating system. That is just plain silly.
The point is that even someone moderately knowledgable (I'm not talking guru here) should be able to set up Ubuntu. Anyone who can answer yes no questions can set it up. Most of the time the defaults are correct anyway.
On a related note would you give your mother a Windows XP disc and expect her to install it. I certainly wouldn't. The difference is with Windows is most of the time it's pre-installed by the manufacturer.
Not to nit-pick... but it was actually my girlfriend's grandmother. Something tells me that you read "I installed Ubuntu", "grandmother" and "Is Ubuntu ready for the desktop? You bet your ass it is." and ignored everything else.
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Re:I installed Ubuntu on my Dad's computer (Score:4, Informative)
I would be 100% confident in handing the Ubuntu disk to anyone and saying here, install this, and know that they could do it, provided they know two things: how to put the disk in, and how to reboot the computer. A few MIGHT have trouble getting their computer to boot from cd, but they would be the minority. Everyone else would end up with a fully functioning Ubuntu linux installation. Of course, they would also be sans windows, but that's not so bad, now is it.
I do have some other gripes with Ubuntu (it doesn't recognize my epson cx5200, which mandrake does), but they are minor. Personally, I think that their installer needs work, for ANYTHING other than the basic installation.
I promise that if you handed a winxp disc to most people, they would end up with a functioning system only after much confusion. I mean, NTFS or FAT32? What in the name of $person is that? Ubuntu gives even less control than windows, but it's not any worse.
Oh, and another thing, Ubuntu, like Linspire, installs in a flash (sub 15 minutes for a working system on a reasonably modern computer). Compare this to the 30+ minute install for ANY version of windows (well, maybe not 3.11, but I've never installed that).
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Re:I installed Ubuntu on my Dad's computer (Score:4, Insightful)
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We have tested... (Score:5, Insightful)
1. a snickers
2. a jam of pure honey
3. an apple
4. a carrot
We found out that snickers is the best food because:
1. it comes in a nice wrapping
2. has many calories and can give you an energetic boost
3. its taste is supreme to others
Some people say you need vitamines, you should not spoil your teeth etc. But for an end-user what matters is the ease of use! And the snickers is the ultimate winner here.
Although an apple and a carrot keep quite close they have a long way to go.
best regards
michal
SuSE (Score:4, Informative)
I know apt-get, emegre, etc do the same thing, but IMHO, those utilities aren't as n00b-friendly as YaST. For one, in my experience, "mums and dads" are terrified of the command line, and will avoid it like the plague.
Re:SuSE (Score:3, Interesting)
Although I'm not a n00b (far from it in fact - I'm a Linux sysadmin for a web-hosting company) I for one don't actually use the command line for apt-get on Ubuntu as I find Synaptic so easy. In fact, since I started using Ubuntu at home I don't use the
Ozzies? (Score:3, Funny)
The Australian Consumers? Association has evaluated Xandros,
Is the "?" some kind of joke about the way Australians turn everything they say into a question by going up in tone at the end of every sentence? Or just an unescaped html character?
Because it gets really annoying? Trying to talk to people? When you're not sure whether they're asking a question or telling you something?
Interesting quote (Score:5, Insightful)
Documentation (Score:5, Insightful)
Many average joe's expect there to be a help icon somewhere in the distro. I know Linspire has one, and Windoes always has it's "Help" tab and chm files.
Frankly who the heck is going to bother with the man pages and the command line? I know I will cause I'm a sysadmin, but my mother would have a heart attack upon seeing the command line! Anyone who intends to use the command line will have to learn about it from a GUI first, and quite frankly, I can't see the documentation for that in Gnome at the moment.
Maybe it's time the distributions (or Gnome or KDE or whoever) provided us with some decent pdfs from tldp and stuck them in their packages. Maybe it's time that all the linux zealots stopped posting on slashdot so much and helped out....
The Gnome "help" function is really sparse and doesn't go into enough detail. I'm using the latest version, and the "find" function is hidden in the menu bar. To add injury to insult, a search on "mp3" yields nothing.
Now imagine you are a cluser who wants to know where the mp3 app is....
An amazingly bad artcicle (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:An amazingly bad artcicle (Score:5, Insightful)
There is an icon on the desktop, it says "get software"
You click on it and there is a list of hundreds of pieces of software. Each software has a description along side it. SOme have pictures too. Most are free, some you have to pay for.
When you want something you just click on install and it does, the icon shows up in your menu when you are done.
This is far easier then anything else including mac and windows. All the software that is compatible with your system is in one place. It's right at your desktop. 99% of it is free. It installs with one click.
None of this hunt the web sites, download something, unzip it, install it, click a licence agreement. Just click and install no problems with dependencies or anything.
How much easier could it possibly be?
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Re:An amazingly bad artcicle (Score:4, Insightful)
Yes to people who have been using linux for over 10 years like myself the process is very quick I know where to look and what to look for and how to manage different windows managers. But for a newbie this is a incredible process that is way to much work. And most of them will just go screw it I will just use windows and face problems with bugs, crashes, viruses and spyware because I rather take my chances and be able to install the apps I want.
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No live CD? (Score:4, Insightful)
(MacOS9 used to include a livecd, infact the installer involved booting to a full macos desktop from which you ran the installer)
Installing software (Score:5, Funny)
Compare this to Linux, where installing software requires complex things such as clicking or even double-clicking an icon, which in turn requires learning to use a "mouse", a very counter-intuitive device, that you need to move while looking at something completely different, and when you reach the edge of the mouse mat, you need to carefully lift it and move it back to the center, such that the little arrow doesn't move, and then continue moving it where you already moved it once.
Partitioning for Dual Boot (Score:5, Interesting)
Microsoft's website seems only to be able to tell me how to remove Linux (1 [microsoft.com], 2 [microsoft.com]) and not have a Windows bootloader installed to allow me to run both. All the other Linux-related KB articles [microsoft.com] are to do with Virtual PC and SMB problems.
installing.
Linux commands may as well be in Klingon... (Score:5, Funny)
Too much choice (Score:4, Insightful)
'Mums and dads" want to go to Target, pick up Hallmark Card Studio, and Blues Clues for the kids, pop in the CD when they get home and have it all install and work automatically. They can get that with Windows.
There's too much choice in the Linux world for "mums and dads" to deal with: which distro, which user interface? People don't like choice, unless is about a topic they're really interested in. And "mums and dads" aren't interested in their computer's OS; they just want things to work. You pick out a name-brand PC (depends on which store you go to and what the salesman tells you) with Windows XP Home on it; you know that you can pick up any game or program and it'll just work, no major decision-making required.
Back when the choice included IBM PC, Macintosh, Apple ][, Commodore 64, Atari, I knew a LOT of people who complained that there were too many kinds to choose from. Why, oh why couldn't there be just ONE type of computer that'll run any program I buy? Now they've got what they wanted and they're happy, even with the virus/spyware problems. Linux, however, is all about choice.
Re:Too much choice (Score:4, Interesting)
With your "Windows-is-perfect-centric-biased" view, without even noticing it, you bypass all the real problems with the Windows model.
What is Hallmark Card Studio ? What is Blues Clues ? Why "choose" these apps ? Isn't there a lot of choice of these types of software ?
How "mums and dads" even got aware of these softs ? They have to actually leave their house to get the software ? How much does it cost ?
Who will install this (newbies are afraid of any dialog) ? Assuming it will install, will it work ? You say it will, nothing is less sure. Even games come with RELEASE NOTES full of identified problems !!!
They can get all these problems. Worse, they do, assuming the countless hours I lost helping people on this OS.
Contrast this with a Linux distro : no need to leave house, everything is there in the distro, nothing to pay, the description is there with a search button to find what you need. Documentation ? Mandrake comes with at least one full manual in each box, with PDF versions on the net http://www1.mandrakelinux.com/docs/Outputs/ [mandrakelinux.com] !!! Installation of software is a breeze.
I am european (french actually). I see the only thing Windows has left for it, is that it is ubiquitous. USA people do not see it, but there are A LOT of problems due to internationalisation (i18n) and localization (l10n) in Windows, that are properly dealt with in Linux (do not know OSX). I see that americans just forget these problems, when justifying grave design choices in Windows (like no difference between different case of characters). And I see that when Windows comes out on top in a comparison, that is because the comparaison is Windows centric.
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OSX Installation (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Did the reviewer even try out the OS's? (Score:3, Informative)
while the information is correct, man-pages suffer from severe information overload - something the average user certainly won't appreciate.
Re:Did the reviewer even try out the OS's? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Did the reviewer even try out the OS's? (Score:3, Insightful)
Told him to google it and figure it out on his own. I mean - all the info is there in the HOWTO's. I think he's just lazy.
He told me to come back over and re-install Windows XP Home or he was writing me out of the will.
Re:Did the reviewer even try out the OS's? (Score:3, Informative)
Did this guy even use the OS? It's called "man" buddy, and its definitely more than enough information.
Um, don't (at least) KDE and Gnome both provide help icons right there on the panel by default? I don't know if xfce and other do or not, but damn man, did this dude even try clicking on things? What kind of geek goes blindly into something without clicking on whatever he or she can find, consequences be damned? Isn't that how we all learned how electronics, electricity, plum
I am sure they did (Score:4, Insightful)
The pages are outdated, archaic and written in a way that takes too much time to find out anything useful and of course teh few existign exampels vaailable in Unix and Linux documentation are totally irrelevant.
I do not want to read a cool example of how to use a potato as a galvanic element in order to create a serial connection to a tomato - I want to find out how to use my serial modem to connect to Internet.
Most people don't want to read gibberish, or manuals at all. If Linux can't be made as easy to use as Linux, at least the instructions should be made usable.
When I build together a IKEA furniture I rarely look at the instructions, and when I do it is for a quick reference. I do not wish to read a 10 page book describing the philosophy behind the use of screwdrivers and cool things you can do with a screwdriver, like using it as a throwing knife on the cardboards that the furniture came wrapped in.
The elitistic attitudes and documentation does nothing but harm Linux and delays its introduction to the mass market. And it doesn't make you that cool either to point out the 'man' command.
man how do I connect to to Internet?
No such page.
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Re:Did the reviewer even try out the OS's? (Score:3, Insightful)
--
Just as an illustration, try "man find". It took me years to figure out that "find . -name {file_name}" would find all files matching {file_name} below the current directory - which I imagine is the usage of 99% of users.
Check out the description of the tool:
"find searches the directory tree rooted at each given file name by e
Re:Riddled with inacuracies (Score:5, Insightful)
"Mac OS X could have more comprehensive help files and we'd like to see the inbuilt firewall switched on by default."
Anyone who thinks a default client-based firewall is anything but an admission that the OS developers couldn't figure out how to make any network services secure by default simply has NO BUSINESS even commenting on security issues.
I suppose that excludes most of the pundits online and in magazines, but that's always been true, all the way back to Jerry Pournelle (after his friend Maclean died, anyway).
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