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Windows Compatability on the Linux Desktop

Posted by michael on Thu Jun 17, 2004 02:58 AM
from the avoiding-temptation dept.
davecb writes "O'Reilly has been kind enough to publish one of my how-to articles, Windows Compatability for the Linux Desktop, about dealing with that 'one last annoying program than only runs on Windows'. The answer? Run it under Linux and win4lin, and never venture onto the Windows desktop at all. Especially don't run programs via dual-boot, which tempts you to stay and use all those other wonderful programs like Outlook...
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  • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 17 2004, @03:02AM (#9449911)
    Why spend all that time developing a program that emulates Microsoft Windows products, when they could just devlop a better solution to the software they want to run? I mean, come on people, mIRC, Outlook, AIM, Comet Curson... they're not all that great to begin with.
    • I don't think they are talking about this kind of software.
      Some company release their software only for Windows, and if you really need this software and nothing exist to replace it, it can be a good solution before they release a Linux version (or someone else do).
      • by scorp888 (53723) <scorp888 AT hotmail DOT com> on Thursday June 17 2004, @03:54AM (#9450135)
        The reason people still use Outlook, is multiple.

        It syncs with most things, no lets rephrase that, most things sync with it. Phones, pda's etc, all will come with some way on syncing with outlook. Until all the Ximian's etc, can say the same, people will want to use Outlook. The other reason is group calendaring, there are alternatives to Exchange, but getting big corporates to move to them, is another matter. Getting small company's who already have a license for exchange 2000, to move to xxx product, which is going to cost them money, and can't be shown easily to offer real world benfits, is REALLY difficult.

        Same with Project, same with Visio, same with SolarWinds Engineers tool kit, now I'd love open source versions of these, especially the last (and no, nmap and mrtg don't quite do the same) then I can use FreeBSD or Linux 100% of the time.

        • by Red Alastor (742410) on Thursday June 17 2004, @12:17PM (#9453954)
          I remind me of a conversation I had with a friend that illustrate the main reason people don't want to switch.

          Me - [explanation of what is FireFox and what are the benefits]
          Her - I don't want to download another program, IE do the job. And it's what everyone else is using !
          Me - Maybe, but your computer got many viruses. (PCCillin shows some viruses but don't want to remove them, probably because the license expired)
          Her - I didn't installed them myself.
          Me - No, but using IE is begging for someone to install them for you.
          Her - [angry face]
    • by iserlohn (49556) on Thursday June 17 2004, @03:30AM (#9450034) Homepage
      I think the idea is that there are some programs that are really important for some people, and there are no alternatives in *nixland. If someone can switch over because those programs now work without booting into Windows, that mean one more full-time linux user.
    • by JOstrow (730908) <jostrow@x13designs.com> on Thursday June 17 2004, @04:03AM (#9450165) Homepage
      Well, first, it takes less time to write an emulator than a Linux version of every Windows program somebody would want to use.

      Since there are so many Windows-emulation applications available, it appears that a demand is present. Remember, this is for a 'linux desktop.' Your average 'linux desktop' user probably isn't savvy enough to research OSS alternatives... or program their own version.

      To be quite honest, some Windows applications outdo their open-source counterparts. People will use what works best for them, and who can argue against doing that?
      • by XeRXeS-TCN (788834) on Thursday June 17 2004, @04:59AM (#9450344)
        "AIM, while proprietary, is free as in both beer and speech for the time being..."

        Without attempting to go off on a Stallman-esque rant, "proprietary" and "free as in speech" are contradictions in terms. The software *is* "free as in beer", but without the source code and permission to modify and redistribute it, it cannot be considered to be free software.

          • by Haeleth (414428) on Thursday June 17 2004, @08:41AM (#9451762) Journal
            Stallman's gulity (sic) of choosing a nonstandard word-type for the meaning of free he wants. "free [action]" means liberty. "free [noun]" means zero-cost.

            America is a free country. I am a free man.

            Can you produce for me a native English speaker who, seeing those sentences, will "presmue (sic) that they are talking about something-for-nothing"?
            • by spectecjr (31235) on Thursday June 17 2004, @11:27AM (#9453445) Homepage
              America is a free country. I am a free man.

              Can you produce for me a native English speaker who, seeing those sentences, will "presmue (sic) that they are talking about something-for-nothing"?


              Similarly:

              I breathe free air.
              I drink free soda.
              I use free software.

              Can you produce for me a native English speaker who is not an OSS-using geek who, seeing thse sentences, will presume that they are talking about free as in liberty?
            • by Dick Faze (711885) on Thursday June 17 2004, @11:53AM (#9453685) Journal
              Yeah man, I know what you mean. What kind of a fool would think that? When I see "Buy one jar of Jiff and get one free" I am certain it means that if I buy one, another will be allowed to do as it pleases.
        • Re:WRONG (Score:4, Insightful)

          by 13Echo (209846) on Thursday June 17 2004, @08:03AM (#9451375) Homepage Journal
          I use Evolution with the Exchange server at work, and it does a pretty good job. The calender and groupware features seem to work just fine, and it can even use directory system as well.

          Wheather or not it is worthwhile is solely based on how it is implemented. Exchange accounts are done on a per-seat license, so you have to pay no matter what. This means, however, that you have the option of using alternative platforms instead of paying for Windows licenses though. You can save money on the OS and office suite by using Linux in conjunction with OO.o and Evolution. Ximian/Novell may be directing their efforts towards OSX versions of Evolution as well (according to a rep I saw about 2 weeks ago). The process of being able to slowly move away from Windows, while keeping all of the major groupware features really *does* allow you to save money, and possibly move to other alternatives. Unfortunately, there are not any viable opensource groupware alternatives at the moment. So you're going to pay for something like the groupware software from Novell or IBM.
      • by CastrTroy (595695) on Thursday June 17 2004, @05:45AM (#9450524) Homepage
        One Word

        VMWARE

        It runs everything. It's a completely emulated computer. You install windows on the emulated computer and everything works perfectly. I even used this to make my scanner work under linux before drivers were available. The only thing that won't work is games, because emulating a good video card is just too hard.
        • by airjrdn (681898) on Thursday June 17 2004, @11:22AM (#9453394) Homepage
          Purely wondering...what kind of success rate would you expect here?

          "Hi, I'm running Linux and not able to use this application, I'd like to know the possibily of you exposing an XML-RPC or SOAP API of the functionality in the web interface so the other extremely tiny minute number of users that also fit into my scenerio wouldn't have to run Windows or some form of emulation software."

          I said "extremely tiny minute" not because that's the share size of the Linux community, but that's the share size of them neededing to run this specific application.

          I can't imagine this bank, or any other company is going to worry about requests like this. I'd be surprised if you actually got to talk to anyone even remotely connected to their IT department.
      • by 13Echo (209846) on Thursday June 17 2004, @08:14AM (#9451486) Homepage Journal
        The sad truth is that Linux is not taken seriously for audio work at the moment, even though the ALSA system is quite excellent and the latency of 1.x is lower than both Windows and OSX.

        You won't find a driver for that hardware, since it uses a special inteface and special software that is closed source. Yamaha has no interest in writing that software for Linux.

        On the other hand, it's such an obscure device, it's not really a priority for most people. Windows and OSX are the best solutions for people like you, that need specialized support for music hardware and software (for the time being).
  • by Granos (746051) on Thursday June 17 2004, @03:05AM (#9449925)
    Run it under Linux and win4lin, and never venture onto the Windows desktop at all.

    Except, like, every time you run a windows application through win4lin. win4lin is just a virtual machine! You still need to install an authentic copy of Microsoft Windows on your machine. Although there is a big usability difference, there is not philisophical difference, as the summary seems to imply.
    • by ninjaz (1202) on Thursday June 17 2004, @03:41AM (#9450093)
      Although there is a big usability difference, there is not philisophical difference, as the summary seems to imply.
      There is a philosophical difference, but it's "Part-time Linux User vs. Full-time Linux User who runs a Windows program" (contrast "stick it to Microsoft vs. give money to Microsoft" which you appear to be getting at).

      Also, over the long-term, being a Linux user who runs a Windows program does tend toward sticking it to Microsoft. Spending full-time in the Linux user environment with one nagging dependency is a clearer path to ultimate independence from Windows-based software; As a full-time Linux user, the itch is to get rid of that Windows dependency. As a dual boot user, the tendency is to stay in the currently booted environment until you want something in the other environment enough to close everything and reboot.

      Not to mention the practical benefits of spending as little time as possible in a breeding ground for viruses and other malware... or the network effect of the existence of more full-time Linux users, (some of whom happen to run a program under win4lin). :-)

  • Linux is great for being productive, but when you want to DL some trivial game and waste hours upon hours... You just can't beat a windows machine for that...

    And I hate MS...
  • Wine or Qemu (Score:5, Informative)

    by djcapelis (587616) on Thursday June 17 2004, @03:10AM (#9449945) Homepage
    I've been playing around with several different solutions for this. Personally I have no need for any of them except when coding microcontrollers at my robotic's competition once a year or so, in which case I just use some makefiles that act as the interface and run the compiler with wine for me. It worked totally fine.

    Other than wine however, QEmu (http://fabrice.bellard.free.fr/qemu/) is a nice speed driven emulator that will do full on emulation of a system. It recently became able to emulate a system well enough to install and use all versions of windows up through XP. Quite a neat thing actually. It's much faster than boches, which I've also tried, and it has a fairly complete feature set. (Though obviously is for a slightly different purpose than boches, as boches is being mostly used as an operating system development tool now.)

    Wine, WineX and Crossover all also work for even faster results but of course don't emulate the entire system. The apps integrate better of course though, due to the fact that wine will go ahead and put it on your desktop for you so you don't have to know the difference.
  • Too much CLI! (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Matrix2110 (190829) * on Thursday June 17 2004, @03:11AM (#9449948) Journal
    Nice article, I have installed and run Linux a few times so I have a feel for it. (Redhat and Mandrake, I loved Mandrake!) The very steps you articulate are so over my head even though you seem to be creating a rosetta stone for others to follow.

    Give me DoomIII on Linux and I might switch now.

    Give you guys about three years and Microsoft is going to feel the pain to the point they are going to be forced to offer concessions.

    I think that day is coming sooner than we think.


    • Give me DoomIII on Linux and I might switch now


      Welp, given that ID software has released their games on linux for years now (quake 3, etc) and that they have said there will be a linux version of doom III shipping in the same box as the windows version, might as well switch then :P

      Also might I say, ut2004 is beautiful in linux. (native, just like ut 2003 and ut)
  • VS.NET (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Blair16 (683764) on Thursday June 17 2004, @03:12AM (#9449958)
    I'm not trying to start a big flame war here but my killer Windows app is Visual Studio.NET 2003. If Microsoft put half as much work into their OS as there is in Visual Studio the computer usability world would be a much better place. And if there was a Linux app that had comparable features I would switch over completely in a second (even if I had to pay for it).
    • Re:VS.NET (Score:5, Insightful)

      by shird (566377) on Thursday June 17 2004, @04:13AM (#9450200) Homepage Journal
      Couldn't agree more. Im often ammused at people who seem to think vi and grep etc is all they need for programming. And are too stubborn to look at anything else. Pretty much 100% of the time these people have never tried VS, and it shows.

      Perhaps if they did, they might just realise how much their productivity increases. Being able to use tab completion, seeing all members of a class/struct as you type, little wavy lines under invalid variables (with addins), being able to just place a breakpoint anywhere in their code as they are typing etc etc etc the list is pretty much endless, the little things that they are continuing to add are so minor it is clear they are nearing perfection.

      And when debugging, you can drag the current execution spot up a few lines, change some code, then let it run over the spot again without re-compiling or restarting the process! Thats fuckin unbelievable.

      The development tools under windows blow everything else out of the water. Coupled with some cool other tools from compuware etc, and youve got yourself an environment that is very highly unlikely to be replicated under a free OS simply due to the time and effort and research and money required to build such a thing.
      • Re:VS.NET (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Seahawk (70898) <tts@imCOFFEEage.dk minus caffeine> on Thursday June 17 2004, @05:22AM (#9450427) Homepage
        The development tools under windows blow everything else out of the water.

        Which other IDE's have you used?

        I use VS.NET here at my fulltime work. Its fine - but unstable at times.

        I use Eclipse at home and at a parttime job. Its rock solid, but a bit slow at times.

        So I dont really think that VS.NET is so great compared to other IDE's.

        But do tell me the great upside to VS.NET - that I cant have in Eclipse and KDevelop.
      • Re:VS.NET (Score:4, Insightful)

        by GamerGeek (179002) on Thursday June 17 2004, @06:39AM (#9450742)
        Just about everything you've listed is available from Eclipse. Eclipse is free and runs under Linux, most of the time it's faster then it's windows counterpart. I'm almost sure it's compiled natively on Linux using GCJ.

        That being said, V.S. DOES have the niftiest GUI designed I've ever seen. I was very disappointed that I liked it so much. The "anchoring" of widgets so that you don't have to write window resizing code it great. I love Java, but getting GUI stuff to come out exactly the way you want, even with a GUI editor, can be a pain.

        I was never impressed with any version of visual studio until .NET. :( I'm so less 133t now.
  • by Goalie_Ca (584234) on Thursday June 17 2004, @03:13AM (#9449966)
    Especially don't run programs via dual-boot, which tempts you to stay and use all those other wonderful programs like Outlook

    Because we know linux users must only use linux. Nothing else!
  • check your spelling (Score:4, Informative)

    by chrispy666 (519278) on Thursday June 17 2004, @03:17AM (#9449982)
    It is spelt "compatibility" for crying out loud !

    And it is repeated both in the article AND in the slashdot title. Unacceptable...

    Where the hell did this weird "compatability" mistake come from anyway ? I see it more and more everywhere, even in important reports and it's driving me crazy.
  • by Advocadus Diaboli (323784) on Thursday June 17 2004, @03:18AM (#9449990)
    The table of equivalents [linuxshop.ru] lists a lot of open source solutions for almost every program that you can get for Windows. So if someone wants to switch to Open Source he should have a look at it.

    And yes, Linux is ready for the desktop. I switched my own firm PC to Debian/testing last October and I use it for the daily work stuff without any problems. Even being a small island in a Windows-focussed infrastructure doesn't give much trouble.

    The trick is not to try to be a 100% compatible to Windows. No, I rather prefer to be compatible to open standards and so I'm sharing my documents not in *.DOC files but in *.PDF and originally they are written with LaTeX. You can't convince a bean counter that switching makes sense if you just want to do the things the same way like before, because then nobody sees some "added value". If you do things different and even more successful then people start to think about the why...

  • I like linux but.... (Score:4, Informative)

    by Neo-Rio-101 (700494) on Thursday June 17 2004, @03:40AM (#9450092)
    WINE can do Winzip perfectly, but it's the games and the ease of use that keep me on windows.

    With Windows at least all my hardware is detected. Sure it doesn't perform the greatest under bloated XP, but it works... which is better than it not working at all under linux (and by the time it gets supported it's several years down the track)

    Windows installs things really easily. Linux on the other hand can be a total NIGHTMARE when it comes to installation... I must admit that some installs on linux are a dream.... just a shell script does the job. As for having to compile source code for most of the other stuff???? you need to have a good distro or you will spend a whole day compiling something... only to have some library missing or the code breaking and not working for some inexplicable reason. Then Fedora won't let me install the KDE development packages due to some bug there. Heck I just compiled a 2.6.7 kernel today and some modules barfed on install to the point where I had no modules.dep file to mkinitrd with! I still don't understand why!

    On security fronts Linux wins HANDS DOWN. Windows forces you to buy stuff from Symantec, when a free IPTABLES script from the net can do the same job on Linux for free. And linux viruses are almost non-existant.

    The day when Linux takes over the desktop can't come soon enough... but at the moment its capabilities are pretty limited to being an alternate email/internet/office/server replacement... but not much else.

    WINE is getting better but it's still jagged in places. Still pretty unusable for me. It gets some business Windows apps going, but as Linux apps get better to replace them, I hope WINE will eventually be used as a front end just for old windows games.

    Sure linux is free.... but that doesn't help someone like me who shelled out on Windows only because Linux and WINE isn't really there yet.
  • Games (Score:5, Insightful)

    by dave420 (699308) on Thursday June 17 2004, @03:48AM (#9450116)
    This still doesn't fix the problem of games under linux, unless someone's managed to port DirectX 9 and hardware-accelerated drivers for the major graphics cards...
  • second thoughts (Score:5, Insightful)

    by tacocat (527354) <tallison1@twmi.r r . c om> on Thursday June 17 2004, @04:03AM (#9450167)

    My first post instinct was to ask why anyone would bother trying to get anything that's buggy windows to run on anything Linux. But then I read the second post.. and the third... and so on...

    There is a lot of software out there that doesn't run on linux natively that only runs on windows.

    But you have to keep in mind why Microsoft killed Netscape and tried to kill Java. The desktop application environment is being replaced by the webtop application environment and there isn't anything they can do about it.

    So, if there is some project/application that you want to run under Linux that only runs in Windows, don't rewrite it first to run under Linux as in Gnome or KDE, but write it to run under Apache plus whatever you need. It might be more appropriate to run it under web pages.

    Good examples of these are anything to do with corporate financials, email, or planning/scheduling. Bad examples of this are going to be anything that isn't really shared, like Instant Messages, IRC, or other personal user specific applications.

  • by DeadBeef (15) on Thursday June 17 2004, @04:11AM (#9450192) Homepage
    The solution that I introduced to the company I work for a few years ago was to run an old box with Windows 2000 Server on it as a terminal server. We had a guy running VMWare and putting up with trying to get it to work again with every kernel update and this eliminated all the hassle.

    I'm sure there are commercial terminal services clients for Linux, but we run rdesktop [rdesktop.org]. Since we started using it rdesktop has included support for RDP5 which supports 16 bit colour, so with a Windows 2003 server ( we have upgraded ) you get a reasonably nice looking windows desktop. Audio seems to go mostly too, not that its needed for a couple of minutes worth of checking some html renders in IE or talking someone through how to setup outlook express.

    If a windows only accounts package or similar is keeping you from running Linux on your desktop this could be a good solution, the only negative is possibly the Windows server licensing is a bit steep for some situations.
  • wrong question (Score:4, Insightful)

    by phooka.de (302970) on Thursday June 17 2004, @05:11AM (#9450384)
    "...Especially don't run programs via dual-boot, which tempts you to stay and use all those other wonderful programs like Outlook..."

    If running linux and windows in parallel tempts you to stay on windows and not use linux, then by all means - use windows.

    You should use the OS you like best. If the parrallel installation does not tempt you to use more linux then either there's (still) something wrong with linux on the desktop or windows is in fact (still) the better desktop OS - at least for you. And you're who should matter to you.

    Stick to windows.

  • by Nice2Cats (557310) on Thursday June 17 2004, @05:18AM (#9450415)
    When any of my friends starts talking about which operating system to use, I go through this chain of reasoning (well, two questions) with them:

    1. Is there an application that you just have to have that runs on one operating system?

    If yes, you have no choice. Change your life or live with it.

    2. Do you want to just use the computer or want to fool around with the internals?

    If you just want to use it as a tool, go out and buy something from Apple. Yes, they are more expensive at first, but they last longer (unless you have a dual USB iBook, of course), are trivial to use, don't get viruses, look great, and you can always run Linux on them if you change your mind. The only drawback is the lack of a good, free office package: OpenOffice.org for OS X just isn't there yet, and it looks like we're going to have to wait at least a year. Apple should have addressed this problem earlier.

    If you want to play around with the computer for its own sake, you want Linux. If you are buying a computer from scratch, still buy an Apple, because the hardware is great. Then, install either Gentoo [gentoo.org] or Yellow Dog [yellowdoglinux.com]. If you have a computer sitting around, just install Gentoo. You will learn all kinds of stuff, and the system will work like greased lightning.

    Notice there is only one case where you might get Windows: If there is an application that you really, really need and that only runs with Windows. The chance of that is getting pretty small for normal people -- I have had lots of fun point out that OpenOffice.org can export directly to PDF whereas MS Office can't. And Firefox and Thunderbird are better already than anything that Microsoft or Apple can offer. In about a year...

  • Regarding Project... (Score:4, Informative)

    by oujirou (726570) on Thursday June 17 2004, @05:33AM (#9450466)
    Actually, I believe it should have been stated before, but I'll repeat myself from an earlier posting some time ago.

    The new Crossover Office does really run Microsoft Project and does this flawlessly. I wish it could run Rational Rose as well, but since we weren't able to force the poor emu-layer to do so, we decided to evaluate Borland Together which is cross-platform by nature. Up until now, it manages just fine and even better, since it integrates with StarTeam really smoothly.
  • by thebdj (768618) on Thursday June 17 2004, @06:05AM (#9450605) Journal
    Two computers? One Linux, One Windows. Don't start me on WINE and all this stuff. I KNOW. I was using Linux only for about a year but there is one simple point that cannot be ignored, if you still play games you still need windows. It is better to have two machines, less rebooting back and forth and you can always remote X into the linux one or KVM or whatever you choice would be. I recommend two computers for all homes...especially when you play enough games to make it matter.
    • You should try OpenOffice (see http://www.openoffice.org/). To keep it brief, it's like an open-source version of MS Office -- and it includes spell check.

      - shadowmatter
    • by Anonymous Coward
      To get a spell checker in Linux, there is open office [openoffice.org], Abi Word [abiword.org] (both of which do red squigglies below misspelled words), and one can always type in "ispell -a" at the shell prompt and start typing in words which they're not sure of the spelling of.
    • by Rudisaurus (675580) on Thursday June 17 2004, @03:13AM (#9449961)
      WINE wouldn't support MS Project, which was specifically what the author was trying to run.
    • by SlugLord (130081) on Thursday June 17 2004, @03:54AM (#9450134)
      Well I've got karma to burn, so I'll speak my mind:

      If you haven't used windows recently, maybe you should try. It's actually gotten much faster and more stable, and it's actually very easy to cut out a lot of the bloat with just a few settings.

      Yeah, linux is very fashionable for the technological elite to use, but what actual benefits do you get from using it as a Windows replacement. Compare to Windows XP Professional:

      1) Is it *really* more stable? How often can you *really* get the BSOD to come up in XP? I haven't managed yet. Can you get the uptime I've experienced with Windows on Linux? Probably. Can you get the same uptime and still have sound support? Maybe. Can you do it with the grand total of around 2 hours of configuration necessary?

      2) Is it *really* more secure, or does it just invite fewer attacks? Yes, I know Outlook is terrible, but that's not the actual Windows OS, nor does it need to be installed.

      3) Is all the extra aggravation *really* worth it? Yeah, you're extra cool for running Linux and you're sticking it to the man, but why?

      Don't get me wrong; Linux is great for a server environment and a viable alternative when you have limited hardware and only need certain limited programs, but here at Slashdot it seems to be the solution to everything.

      For reference, I'm a Computer Science student and work as a programmer in the summers. My home computer is Windows XP Professional running on a pentium 4 1.7 ghz and my work computer is a pentium 3 450 mhz. I've managed to get some pretty snappy performance on my work computer by running xfce or blackbox (I prefer blackbox) as long as I don't run more than one or two real programs.

      I basically run the same few programs on both computers (emacs, mozilla firefox, aim/gaim, winamp/xmms) most of the time. Granted, it's a little unfair because my home computer is three times the computer of my work computer, but I think I get a lot more than 3 times the benefit out of it.

      Flame away.
      • by nametaken (610866) on Thursday June 17 2004, @04:23AM (#9450231)
        I'll try to address this without it sounding like the "zealot".

        I have had serious problems with 2000, and can't afford to purchase XP... so call me cheap. Makes me want to choose linux.

        Perhaps the OS is actually just a smaller target for security threats... so call me pragmatic. Makes me want to choose linux.

        I installed my distro to nearly exactly where it is now in about 20 minutes. It runs faster, looks prettier, costs less, does everything I ever do on a windows system, and requires less work to get it moving the way I want. Call me lazy...

        Makes me want to choose linux.

        I don't think people who use windows are morons. I don't even pity them. I'm not really worried about sticking it to the man. I'm no crazy linux guru. Best of my understanding, the only place it seriously lacks is in video gaming... but I don't play video games.

        Now, maybe someone could create a knoppix type distro that has some super cool video game that only works on linux. It might work as an inroad into the gaming market.
      • Yeah, linux is very fashionable for the technological elite to use, but what actual benefits do you get from using it as a Windows replacement.

        Freedom. People like to talk about technology but forget why the whole thing started.
            • Linux is bloated? So exactly what would you leave out of the kernel? (Besides the fact that you probably can do it if you don't care recompiling your kernel)

              Ah, you mean "Linux distribution XY is bloated"? So, then don't use Linux distribution XY. Use Linux distribution Z instead. Or even: Use Linux distribution XY, but do a selective install and don't install that software which you consider bloat.
      • OK... here goes (Score:5, Interesting)

        by The Tyro (247333) on Thursday June 17 2004, @05:37AM (#9450484)
        I'll try to answer this from my own experience:

        1. Is it really more stable? Sure has been for me (though I don't run XP... I've got a bit of a beef with their "Product Activation," since I change out hardware almost as often as I change my socks).

        2. More secure? Oh yes... I'd say definitely fewer attacks. You can argue whether there's a selection bias with the number of windows systems out there, but the vast numbers of attacks/viruses/worms still stands. Besides, even if some 1337 linux worm comes along and compromises your unpriviliged user account, so what?

        3. Aggravation? What aggravation? I've got a bunch of neighbors, friends, and family members running redhat and mandrake linux. Setup these days is no problem... and once installed and configured, you don't have to do too terribly much.

        I don't think linux is perfect for everyone either... but the look of wonder on a win98 or winME user's face once they start using a nice KDE desktop under Mandrake warms my heart, particularly once they find out that they don't have to sweat the lastest windows Worm-du-jour.

        After I've rescued/recovered someone's hosed windows system a few times, they always ask me what I use. I hand them a knoppix CD, tell them to try it out for a few days, and let me know if they're interested. You'd be surprised what an eye-opening experience that is for many windows users...
      • If you haven't used windows recently, maybe you should try. It's actually gotten much faster and more stable, and it's actually very easy to cut out a lot of the bloat with just a few settings.
        Faster, more stable, sure... But I still can't get used to the lack of features. I get lost with how hard things are to find and accomplish with a Windows desktop.

        Yeah, linux is very fashionable for the technological elite to use, but what actual benefits do you get from using it as a Windows replacement. Compare to Windows XP Professional:
        A good interface, quick command line access and a useful command line. SFTP/FTP/HTTP/everything/etc directly accessible under my filesystem browsing (KDE/Konqueror)... lots.

        1) Is it *really* more stable? How often can you *really* get the BSOD to come up in XP? I haven't managed yet. Can you get the uptime I've experienced with Windows on Linux? Probably. Can you get the same uptime and still have sound support? Maybe. Can you do it with the grand total of around 2 hours of configuration necessary?
        Yes, it's more stable. From what I understand of XP, the BSOD doesn't happen anymore because the machine just reboots rather than show a screen dump to most people who will never know what it is. And sound support is not so hard as you make it out to be. It just works, just like in Windows. As for the total 2 hours of configuration, that's BS. I can't remember ever rebuilding a Windows box in under a day. My Debian install, should I need to reinstall it, can be reconfigured in less time than that will all programs and preferences and configuration carried over.

        2) Is it *really* more secure, or does it just invite fewer attacks? Yes, I know Outlook is terrible, but that's not the actual Windows OS, nor does it need to be installed.
        Yes, and the fact that Outlook insecurities can affect the OS is proof that the OS itself is also insecure.

        3) Is all the extra aggravation *really* worth it? Yeah, you're extra cool for running Linux and you're sticking it to the man, but why?
        Again, I choose Linux because it works better for me. I can't do my job from a Windows machine anymore. It just isn't capable. As for aggravation, the only computer aggravation I have is crappy hardware that I can't afford to replace when the caps on my mobo blow out or something.

        Don't get me wrong; Linux is great for a server environment and a viable alternative when you have limited hardware and only need certain limited programs, but here at Slashdot it seems to be the solution to everything.
        I use it on my servers, my desktop, my laptop, and my TV. That's a whole lot of environments, a wide variety of hardware, and lots of different programs, moreso than I think is even available for Windows. Linux isn't the solution to everything and karma whores here are often pointing that out while those that say it is are usually modded down for lacking insight. That doesn't mean it should be pigeon-holed to only specific circumstances though.

        For reference, I'm a Computer Science student and work as a programmer in the summers. My home computer is Windows XP Professional running on a pentium 4 1.7 ghz and my work computer is a pentium 3 450 mhz. I've managed to get some pretty snappy performance on my work computer by running xfce or blackbox (I prefer blackbox) as long as I don't run more than one or two real programs.
        Sounds like when you want to work from your machine, you use Linux. But for the home machine, it doesn't matter. Lots of people here use their computers for work and therefore rely on their functionality. Linux is a much more viable choice then.

        I basically run the same few programs on both computers (emacs, mozilla firefox, aim/gaim, winamp/xmms) most of the time. Granted, it's a little unfair because my home computer is three times the computer of my work computer, but I think I get a lot more than 3 times the benefit out of it.
        For the

      • You make some good points, I reply I would say that I am happy in running Linux in a corporate environment and find it far superior to Windows for what should be Windows strengths, office productivity applications.

        To answer your points

        i) Stability.

        Here is the uptime from my PC from a few months ago (running SuSE 7.1)

        alistair@omlette:~> uptime
        5:31pm up 393 days, 2:06, 9 users, load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00

        I have an XP machine and it doesn't come close to these figures, it still seems to have Virtual Memory problems from time to time.

        Sound works excellently for me, and I have two large LCD screens running flawlessly from my Matrox card, dual head actually being easier to set up and tune in KDE / X than Windows XP.

        Open Office has come on laps and bounds recently, I have over 250 Powerpoint presentations on this PC and they all open flawlessly these days using OO 1.1.1. I actually prefer OO Writer and Presenter to the MS equivelent these days, only Excel is clearly better.

        I use Mozilla for mail and web browsing, it often goes for 30 - 40 days between restarts. I currently have 744 emails on my IMAP server and 27,000 emails (3 years worth) in my local folders and Mozilla indexes and searches then very fast on this average PC.

        Upgrading to SuSE 9.1 took me under 3 hours and I have done very little upgrading since. However, bear in mind that before that I had the 400 day uptime, and before that 293 days uptime and think about all the time saved by rebooting the PC once a year on average and you'll see where the performance benefits come from.

        There are many more benefits but I'll finish with just one.

        I use a Mac at home and Linux on the laptop when travelling. Often I will be called on to find an email thread from 18 months earlier. All I have to do now is connect to the corporate network, ssh into my PC and X back Mozilla, 3 years of work history are now in front of me, this has saved so much time on more occasions than I can remember.

        I am certainly no longer a geek and wouldn't say Linux is the solution to everything, however in my corporate role involving email, web sites documents and powerpoint I would estimate I am 10 - 20% more productive using a Standard SuSE Linux build than if I used the Windows XP Microsoft Office equivelent, but as I said, your mileage may vary.

      • by Lord_Byron (13168) on Thursday June 17 2004, @06:31AM (#9450711)
        Your post seems thoughtful, so I'd like to give you a point by point response.

        Windows certainly has gotten faster and more stable, to the point where its just installed performance is no longer an issue. However, under use by normal users, it seems to pick up a variety of little applications, which eventually interact poorly. The registry is not your friend. The response is to lock down XP sufficiently so that users can't install anything, but I wonder what other problems this would incur. It certainly wouldn't work well in most home environments.

        Linux is only fashionable in Linux friendly circles, like Slashdot. People who have choosen other OSes usually think you're weird for choosing something else. I also use XP Pro, not for my primary system, but so that I can gain familiarity with it, to better support my clients. I prefer Linux for several reasons, including:

        *) Apps are easier to install (config && make && make install) and easier to obtain in that I can always download the app I need, for instant gratification.

        *) Better logging when things go wrong. When Windows apps fail, I frequently get no error message, or a useless one. Not long ago I had problems with a sound card in Windows. It was in Device Manager, it was in the list of sound cards in the Multimedia config panel, but when I went to the pick list in the Multimedia panel to choose it as the device to output sound to, it didn't appear. Huh? In Linux, at the absolute worst, I can use sh -x and strace to find, at a very low level exactly what is going on. This shows me what I need to know to fix the issue suprisingly frequently, as I'm not a systems programmer.

        *) Superior flexibility. There are many small tools that do one thing well. I can glue them together in spontaneous shell scripts to extract information from large numbers of files. Recently, I attempted to help a coleague to do a similar analysis on information contained in Word files. No similar solution was found. Lots of nuisance manipulation by hand. I prefer to make the computer do the mindless work.

        *) Text file-centric configuration. A simple SSH session (from my T-Mobile Sidekick, a great sysadmin tool!) can configure nearly any app, and run most of them. Also, since I can grep/sed/awk I can mangle them with easily. If I'm really stuck for where a config option is, I can grep the entire file system. It's not a great option as it takes a long time, but when other options fail, it's there. I can't grep config dialogs in Windows.

        *) Support. Suprised? Don't be. Does Microsoft even offer "free" support with a purchase? When I do call support, I get the annoying level 1 tech that is employed to keep the idiots away from the techs who know something. Depending on their training, I may or may not get passed to level 2 quickly. When I post to the mailing list for a given app, the developer and several people who have dealt with the same issue usually see it almost immediately, and give me the help I need, immediately.

        *) Simplicity. I never have registry problems under Linux. Uninstalling an app is a simple matter of deleting the files. I don't have the sort of application interaction issues I see in Windows.

        *) Security. Yes, it really is more secure. There have been viruses for UNIX, but they have not propigated well. There are technical reasons for this, and at least a couple of papers written about it. Google is your friend. Patches come out more quickly. Common client apps tend to have fewer issues, and do fewer things on behalf of the user without consulting them.

        *) Freedom. Can't underestimate this one. It's just nice to really own my system.

        To your numbered points:

        1) Yes. No BSoD so far, but I've seen XP lock cold and less dramatic failures. Yes. Yes. Yes.

        2) It is really more secure, see above. It is more secure considering only the core system, not to include apps. It is also more secure considering apps. Considering system secur