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Dan Gillmor Reconsiders Linux on the Desktop

Posted by CmdrTaco on Tue Apr 06, 2004 11:33 AM
from the second-third-and-trillionth-chance dept.
Cyrus writes "Influential San Jose Mercury News tech columnist Dan Gillmore has reconsidered his stance against Linux. He now says it's rapidly converging to a viable desktop OS for the masses. "While I wasn't paying sufficient attention, the proverbial tortoise has been playing some serious catch-up.""
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  • Wireless (Score:3, Offtopic)

    by erick99 (743982) * <homerun@gmail.com> on Tuesday April 06 2004, @11:35AM (#8780939) Homepage
    We have tried LINUX here at home with our wireless network and it has been a giant on-again/off-again struggle. Considering the rapid growth of wireless networks, I hope LINUX addresses this soon.

    Happy Trails!

    Erick

    • Re:Wireless (Score:5, Informative)

      by OmniGeek (72743) on Tuesday April 06 2004, @11:38AM (#8780977)
      Yes, Wi-Fi is an area of spotty hardware support, as it is developing and changing so rapidly.
      FWIW, I suggest using external WiFi bridges for desktop systems where internal cards are troublesome, and sticking to known-functional WiFi cards for laptops.

      Of course, I try to avoid WiFi for my networks 'cause even its encrypted modes are not very secure...
      • SSH..... don't tell anyone, but my secret is...
        SSH..... don't tell anyone, but my secret is...
        SSH..... don't tell anyone, but my secret is...

        The real joke is that some folks think that their WIRED ethernet is secure. Now, you'll have to excuse me if I wax ethereal for a second....
    • Re:Wireless (Score:4, Insightful)

      by -tji (139690) on Tuesday April 06 2004, @02:14PM (#8783261) Journal
      In my own personal experience, the driver support on Linux has been better than on Windows.. The Linux drivers seem to be more generalized. I have two CompactFlash WiFi cards that I can use in my Zaurus or use in my laptop with a PCMCIA adapter. in Linux, I pop the card in, and the driver loads.. no problems. The dmesg output claims a different vendor than it actually says on the card, but it works fine.

      Then, I put it in the laptop while booted into Win2K, and it goes through that damn hardware wizard. I try a half dozen drivers, from the card vendor, the chipset OEM, and other similar cards.. and none load. The cards are officially supported on WinCE devices, but there is no reason they shouldn't work on Win2K. I eventually get it working in one laptop, I'm still not sure how. But, I never did get it working in my Sony VAIO. Like most Windows things, I can't get any low level information about why it's failing.. it just doesn't work.

      BUT.. Once a card is working in Windows, the software is generally pretty good. I can see available Access Points, configure them - and the software remembers WEP keys, etc.

      On Linux, it's a highly manual process, entering WEP keys on the command line.. using seperate tools to scan for access points.. This part totally sucks in Linux today.

      The Zaurus has some half decent GUI tools for setting keys & stuff like that, but it is nowhere near as good as WinXP, WinCE, or MacOS X. This is what's needed to have a usable wireless connection.
  • I don't know ... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by carb (611951) on Tuesday April 06 2004, @11:37AM (#8780963) Homepage
    While this is probably being heralded as good news (i.e. prominent "news" figure endorses Linux), isn't this really just jumping on the bandwagon while he still can?
    • by Anonymous Coward
      Do you mean to suggest that Dan Gillmor is belatedly stating the obvious merely to retain a shred of respectability? No say it isn't so.
  • The article likens Linux to the proverbial tortoise, and that gets me to thinking that we should update the famous Aesop fable of the tortoise and the hare to reflect today's reality.

    How about this...

    Just as the tortoise has crossed the finish line, the hare, waking up and realizing he's lost the race as a result of his own indolence and brash overconfidence, files suit against the tortoise for infringing on his intellectual property, foremost of which is the hare's exclusive rights to using one's legs for forward movement.

    The tortoise, facing mounting legal bills and declining support from the other animals, nearly all of whom think the hare's claims are overly broad and invalid but are afraid of being similarly targeted by the hare's legal campaign for the use of their own legs, is forced to settle out of court, concede defeat in the race, and to pay a nominal licensing fee to continue using his own legs.

    The hare, and his lawyers, win the race after all.
      • Bruce Springsteen is singing, in the song, to a girlfriend or ex-girlfriend, one whom he accuses of getting her kicks from "driving" him "down." So, logically, I wrote my sig as if there's one specific girl who mods down my posts out of spite.

        Hey, are you her?

        You BITCH!

        I want my records back!
        I WANT MY RECORDS BACK!
  • by ThetaKestrel (742499) on Tuesday April 06 2004, @11:40AM (#8780998)
    IMO, Linux hasn't changed that greatly, it's just easier for non-geeks to get ahold of it. There aren't (m)any new resources; it's just that resources that existed before are easier to get ahold of.
  • by xpyr (743763) on Tuesday April 06 2004, @11:40AM (#8781010) Homepage
    yeah its getting their but I want my installation wizards for programs damnit :) As well as having an easy way to remove programs that I've installed. One more thing though, an easier way to install drivers too. And have unknown devices show up as well if there is no driver part of the install yet. Make it graphical and an easy way to do it at the command line. And distro specific packages like rpm don't cut it. I want a way that'll work with all distro's, not just a specific one. You can install the same program on windows 98/2000/xp. MS did it, now its time for linux to do it.
    • by dabadab (126782) on Tuesday April 06 2004, @12:08PM (#8781355)
      "I want a way that'll work with all distro's, not just a specific one. You can install the same program on windows 98/2000/xp. MS did it, now its time for linux to do it."

      No, MS did not do it, because MS installers do not do a lot of things that rpms or debs handle - take dependency, for example. In Debian, that's solved.
      In Windows, it is not. There's no way to know within the borders of the "packaging system" if MFC42xy.DLL is installed, what version is, and if it is needed, there is no way to automatically install the newest version from some repository.

      In fact, Debian's packaging system is WAY superior to Windows' one. Perhaps the interface is not that friendly to some users, but the underlying system is lightyears ahead.

      • by kollivier (449524) on Tuesday April 06 2004, @01:35PM (#8782719)
        Yes, but it's only solved in Debian. Have you noticed that people's choice of distribution is usually *heavily* based around the packaging system the distribution uses? Think about that for a minute. All of these distros are not very different at all if you take away their unique packaging systems.

        I see that as sad, personally. The ability to install software easily has become the #1 differentiator between distros. As long as everyone picks the same distro, this works great. Otherwise, it makes software developers' lives hell. Joe wants a RPM, Jack wants a DEB, Jill wants an Emerge, and others want an autoconf-based tarball that includes all the dependencies for easy source installs. Cripes.

        So while you marvel at Debian's simplicity, I'll pull my hair out learning several different packaging formats and trying to maintain them all. Furthermore, to make binaries, I need to have access to each of those distros! There is supposedly some LSB-compliant binary builder, but I haven't figured that out yet... And yet people expect developers to make more effort to support Linux while Linux vendors (and OSS developers) just keep adding more complexity to the whole thing? It just seems like a case of continually re-inventing the wheel rather than getting together and coming to a solution.

        When distribution vendors can get out of the software packaging business (except for the core OS), it will be a great day for developers and users alike. Standards need to be adhered to, and people need to realize that a filesystem designed for optimizing command-line use (i.e. everything on the Path or in "special" folders, easy-to-type folder names vs. easy-to-understand) is no longer a very good choice for today's increasingly complex GUI applications, some of which can have hundreds or thousands of files. Linux has some solutions, but nothing is self-contained, and NOTHING is easy to understand without reading a bunch of docs scattered around the web. I don't need to read 50 pages of documentation to learn where to put my files on Windows/Mac.

        If Debian's packaging system is somehow going to resolve all this, let me know. Otherwise, I'll probably stick to Windows and Mac packages at the moment, both of which are simple to put together and just work.
      • by asv108 (141455) <alex&phataudio,org> on Tuesday April 06 2004, @01:01PM (#8782178) Homepage Journal
        Debian

        apt-get install packagename
        apt-get remove packagename

        Gentoo

        emerge packagename
        emerge --unmerge packagename

        Fedora

        yum install packagename
        yum remove packagename

        Redhat

        up2date packagename
        rpm -e packagename

        In all of the install cases here, the packaging system installs the software package along with any of the dependencies that are required. In the case of debian and especially gentoo, almost every package you need is available through the packaging system. Apple and Windows aren't even close to providing that level of packaging support. Although fink is probably the first thing i install on a virgin os x machine.
  • by Erore (8382) on Tuesday April 06 2004, @11:41AM (#8781025)
    I don't know whether to mod Dan's article as +1 insightful or -1 Redundant.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 06 2004, @11:41AM (#8781026)
    Change view often.
    A well thought out opinion is boring.
  • by lavalyn (649886) on Tuesday April 06 2004, @11:42AM (#8781034) Homepage Journal
    (and we'll probably have to keep saying it for another three years)

    The innovators have spoken, and they like what they saw.

    Now the volume will pick up, as more people take notice, and the ease-of-learning continues to grow in leaps and bounds. As businesses start deploying Linux on the workstation for cost competitive advantage and security competitive advantage, there will be more demand of open-source integration - and more open-source programming jobs.

    Then come the hordes that are the mainstream users and late adopters. Oh how I hope the Linux community is actually ready for this.
  • Disguised Ad (Score:3, Insightful)

    by tilleyrw (56427) on Tuesday April 06 2004, @11:46AM (#8781094)

    This article reads as nothing more than a Linux-oriented Macintosh advertisement.

    From the opinionated comment "if you want to use wireless with a laptop, buy a Mac" to his conclusion, his writing suggests buying a Macintosh to escape desktop troubles and attain nirvana.

    I'm not bashing the Macintosh as my first computer was an Apple II+, Macintosh 128K (the original), Macintosh 512K, Macintosh SE, Macintosh Centris 610. I love the ease-of-use of the Macintosh and believe that Apple creates the best interfaces. (The "Dock" notwishstanding!)

    He is short on specific elements that are better implemented in other OSes than Linux. That is the key to why Linux will dominate: It gathers the best of all possibilities unto itself.

  • by 4of12 (97621) on Tuesday April 06 2004, @11:48AM (#8781117) Homepage Journal

    Star Office 7.0, the latest and most impressive version of Sun Microsystems' low cost alternative to Microsoft Office.

    Okay. I'll believe that things have gradually gotten better and better on the Linux desktop.

    So, then, now, how much incentive does Sun have now to push OO.o and Star Office further into this key part of Microsoft's bread and butter business?

  • There is no doubt about it: Xandros is good enough to give to people who know nothing at all about the internals of computers. I put it on an old Dell last month, gave it to my mother, and she did not say anything; the thing got onto the Net, let her edit her documents and send email and browse, print out her papers, and generally did a nice job, well.

    Xandros is probably the best of breed, and they are starting to make it available at no cost via channels like Linux magazine covers.

    But even so it's well worth the money (and my firm has bought dozens of Xandros licenses) and comes highly recommended.
  • Red Hat anyone? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Performer Guy (69820) on Tuesday April 06 2004, @11:54AM (#8781181)
    Maybe it's time for Red Hat to evaluate their current stance on Desktop Linux. Last I heard they were saying it was years away after ditching support for their affordable version.
  • by Saeger (456549) <farrellj@gm[ ].com ['ail' in gap]> on Tuesday April 06 2004, @11:58AM (#8781236) Homepage
    SuSE in particular seems to have gained a whole lot of momentum lately. Aided by RedHat's "mistake", by YaST being open sourced, and by Novell's good moves, I think that SuSE will soon have the mindshare (and desktop/server share) that RedHat used to enjoy (and this despite the fact that SuSE still doesn't offer downloadable x86 ISOs.)

    I know that I, for one, will be switching in May from RH9 to SuSE 9.1 Pro, and will be recommending it to others in place of the other major contenders (RHEL, Fedora, Mandrake, "Java" desktop, etc.)

    --

  • Wireless comments (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Omega1045 (584264) on Tuesday April 06 2004, @11:58AM (#8781238)
    Below the article are a number of user comments about the article. Obviously some of these are going to be from Linux geeks. This one got my attention:

    I wish your Linux wireless experience had been as painless as mine was.

    I bought the $20 Belkin PC-card at surpluscomputers.com. It uses the Atmel wireless Ethernet chip, and there's a well-packaged Linux driver on Atmel's site. I got the "wireless-tools" package for my Linux distribution and dropped Atmel's driver into my kernel, and I have Wi-Fi! Very easy, no blind alleys. This stuff used to be hard. Either I'm getting better or Linux is getting easier.

    To the non-geek, here is what this paragraph might mean:

    Atmel wireless Ethernet chip: I have to install a chip? Oh great, where do I buy that?

    well-packaged Linux driver: Who cares if they send it to you in a nice package? My Windows came in a very colorful box, and I still had troubles with it!

    kernel: You mean corn kernel? Or are you spelling Colonel wrong? Huh?

    Either I'm getting better or Linux is getting easier: You are stupid because you don't know Linux speak. Keep using MS Windows, it is less intimidating.

    Just some thoughts on how far some of the stuff for the Linux desktop still has to go. If you want to beat Microsoft, you are going to have to make things easy for the non-geek (duh). I certainly don't mean to belittle the poster. But is sure does highlight the fact that what we geek types think has become easy is still very, very hard for the average user.

  • by The-Dalai-LLama (755919) on Tuesday April 06 2004, @12:14PM (#8781466) Homepage Journal

    I think Linux has come a long way.

    When I bought my home computer (about 3 years ago), I tried to get into Linux on the advice of my friend. I bought the $45 book-and-CD with the Penguin on the cover, but it was just too overwhelming (command-line what?!?) and I never gave it a fair shot.

    Fast-forward 3 years: While trying to get an old (12MB-hard-drive old) laptop going, I heard that Linux was good for older hardware and went to the local LUG meeting where somebody gave me a copy of Knoppix (Psst... over here...Yeah, you... Try it, you'll like it!...The first one's free... all the cool kids are doing it...You wanna be cool, don't you?!?!). Less than six-months later, I use Linux almost exclusively at home.

    Critical factors for the Linux switch made by my non-technical ass:

    • Risk-free trial that is jaw-droppingly cool when it boots up (don't ever undestimate the impact that Knoppix's "Holy crap, that's cool!" start-up routine has on non-technical users). (It also helped that all I had to do was enter my username and password for Knoppix to find my PPP-whatever connection and hook me up to the internet - if that had been a pain in the ass I probably wouldn't have given Linux a second shot).
    • Free Software (Free GIMP vs. $600 Photoshop)
    • EASE OF INSTALLATION (I'm using Arklinux)
    • Stability (Nice computer: $2000; Operating System: $0; Never having to reboot: Fucking Priceless)
    • Better Software (If Fire-whatever is this cool on Windows, maybe the rest of this "open-source" stuff is worth a look)
    • *For what it's worth: Security was not on my list prior to making the switch.

    That's my experience. Every day Linux becomes not only a truly viable option for more people, but also a truly attractive option for more people.

    The Dalai Llama
    keep your damn command line - I want pretty colors, lots of nifty boxes, and everthing should be accessed through pretty little buttons that look like shiny pieces of candy...

  • by Doubting Thomas (72381) on Tuesday April 06 2004, @12:19PM (#8781540)
    That's great and all, but the problem is that laptop sales have already outpaced desktop sales, and are set to completely massacre them in the coming years.

    I've been looking at linux on the laptop objectively lately, and the situation is really pretty bad from a user-friendliness standpoint. Most of the bits I've gathered for getting peripherals and power conservation features on my laptop to function are scattered to the four winds. It's all arkane little tweaks and twiddles handed down through web forums and kernel mailing lists. None of it is cohesive, and all of it is perfectly opaque to the average end-user.

    Additionally, a lot of the tools are simply incomplete. The Longrun utility doesn't support all of the features of the Crusoe chips. ACPID doesn't come with a SysV service script. And while the new laptop_mode project is coming along, it seems to be focussing on kernel tweaks to reduce disk utilization, which in my limited experience isn't the lion's share of wasted power on a laptop (for instance, on my laptop, spinning down the drive only reduces power usage by 5%). It also has no facilities for Crusoe processors as of yet.

    I'm actually working on contributions to the respective projects to address my primary concerns, so this isn't a normal case of sour grapes. However, I fear that my improvements may only amount to a drop in a very large bucket. It's a big hill to climb, and it's getting taller with every quirky new laptop model that comes out.
  • by Zigmund555 (706501) on Tuesday April 06 2004, @12:21PM (#8781566)
    Personally, I'm sick of these "Linux is too hard to use comments". People keep saying Linux won't be ready for the desktop until it is as easy to use as Windows. Do you even know any "Joe Users"? I'll tell ya this, my parents can't install new hardware or fix what I would call simple issues in WinXP. If a program is acting funny, they're lost. They have to call me or the PC manufactuer for help. Want to know how proficient the "average" or "slightly geeky" user is? Watch Screen Savers or Call for Help on TechTV. Most people can't figure out the simplest of issues. Whenever someone writes a "Linux still isn't there" article they assume that the average user is an expert in all things Windows. The truth is , they're not. So what makes Linux so much harder to learn/use than Windows?

    Here's what I think about linux:

    1. Installing a program isn't any harder. Windows install.. insert CD, click OK and Next a bunch of times and it's done. Linux install.. do an emerge, apt-get, swaret, etc, sit back and wait. Yeah, Linux is hard. One command to me is easier than navigating to a webpage, filling in some stupid personal info questions, downloading an executable, navigating to that executable then double clicking.

    2. Something doesn't work right? Windows way... call your manufacturer or a geeky friend to help out. Linux way.. search on linuxquestions.org or your distro's forums. 99% of the time your answer is already in those forums. Some program throwing out some weird error? Search online, you'll find a ton of fixes. Yeah, Linux is hard.

    3. Recompiling a kernel? It's really not that hard. There are a ton of walkthroughs on the internet.

    4. Hardware support. Windows has plug and play which is really great... when it works. How many times have you tried to install a piece of hardware where Windows didn't correctly recognize it, or didn't recognize it at all? Me, probably at least a dozen times. In Linux every stock kernel I've seen a distro supply has just about everything compiled as a module. The only reason I've ever had hardware not be autodetected and set up is when that manufacturer explicitly wouldn't allow for OSS support (D-Link + series wireless cards with the TI chip).

    So in summation, stop with the whiny articles about Linux isn't ready for the desktop. It is. Many people use it for both home and production machines. If it's not ready for people to use then why are there 78,919 projects hosted on sourceforge.net? That's an awful lot of software for such an unusable OS. If you want to complain that Linux isn't ready for the mass desktop to be used by Joe Doesn't_know_jack_about_PCs_user then I say neither is Windows.
    • by NineNine (235196) on Tuesday April 06 2004, @01:16PM (#8782388) Homepage
      Linux install.. do an emerge, apt-get, swaret, etc, sit back and wait.

      emerge what? where do I type this? I just type "emerge" and my program on my CD installs? What tells me how to do this? I put the CD in, then I type emerge, or do I type emerge then put the CD in?

      . Linux way.. search on linuxquestions.org or your distro's forums.

      How do I find linuxquestions if I can't connect to the Internet? What's a distro? What's a forum? Where do I find distro forums?

      . Recompiling a kernel? It's really not that hard. There are a ton of walkthroughs on the internet.


      A kernel of corn? I thought we were talking about computers? What's "recompiling"? Why do I have to do this? Where do I find instructions? How often do I do this?

      You are 100% out of touch. Leave your parents' basement and talk to a real person. They'll have no clue what you're talking about.
  • by pandrijeczko (588093) on Tuesday April 06 2004, @12:47PM (#8781956)
    1. If you use Windows and are thinking of trying Linux, you should keep your Windows installation going and either have Linux as a dual-boot system or run it from a bootable CD. This takes away any risk that you'll end up with an unusable PC and you can take your time deciding if you like Linux or not. It does not matter what everyone else thinks - software is a tool for you and you use the best tool for the job, whether or not Microsoft make it.

    2. Do not use Linux as a weapon to beat Microsoft about the head with. If you're not happy with Windows or Microsoft, then email Microsoft about it, don't migrate to Linux as some kind of "rebellion". Use Linux because you want freedom to run the software you want when you want, use it because you want to control your own access to your data, use it because you quite like the way KDE or Gnome looks or use it simply because it might be a lot more fun than Windows. These are all good reasons but if you're not happy to spend some time learning a new OS and it's associated tools, then don't bother.

    3. Don't sit back and wait for Linux to "come to you". "Readiness for the desktop" is a personal opinion based on what applications you use in Windows and what their equivalents are in Linux. Do some research, trawl Sourceforge to find out what kind of software there is and try it, read what's included in boxed distros and, again as a dual-boot system, compare Linux software to the Windows stuff you already know. Migrate gradually and spend time learning.

    4. Try some of the Open Source apps in Windows first, see how they run there - Mozilla, The GIMP, OpenOffice.org, etc. Find out whether your favourite web sites render correctly in Mozilla, find out whether OpenOffice can import your word documents, find out if The GIMP gives you the functionality you were used to having in Paintshop Pro or Photoshop.

    5. Research your hardware. Will your scanner, printer, camera, etc. all work under Linux? If not, are you happy to use Windows for some work still until Linux catches up?

    The idea that Linux is "ready" or "not ready" is subjective and rubbish. It's just about giving it a try and either ditching it or working with it and possibly showing some perseverence.

    It's all about getting out what you put in, nothing more...

  • by gclose (250498) on Tuesday April 06 2004, @01:37PM (#8782758)
    I had never used Linux before about 2 weeks ago, when I purchased a copy of Xandros 2.0, deluxe edition ($89). I was sick of system crashes, spyware, and viruses with Windows, so decided to give Linux a try.

    Here is my experience, so far:

    1) Install was very easy. Answer a few wizards, and off you go. I chose to install as a dual boot with my Windows 98 system, which is very easy with the Xandros installer. It recognized almost all of my hardware, right off the bat. Easier than installing Windows, if you ask me. It found but didn't utilize my Comcast Surfboard modem, which is connected via USB, rather than Ethernet card(long story). I found the fix for this in the Xandros forums, which was a _one line_ addition to a configuration file. Worked perfectly after that.

    Using the system has gone pretty smoothly. I can use Open Office to open and edit my Microsoft Office files (have only tried spreadsheet so far), and the preinstalled Mozilla browser works fine.

    On the downside, the fonts are pretty darn ugly, and I am constantly having to increase the font size in Mozilla, as it defaults to too small of a font on some web sites. Not sure why. Also, a good portion of web pages print out really tiny. Not sure why.

    To increase the size of the fonts in Mozilla, I tried monkeying with the video card settings and the font sizes in Mozilla, but I didn't have much luck. Pretty confusing.

    The system has been *very* stable, and no spyware or viruses in sight. The included media player is much more stable than the Windows Media Player or Divx, which were constantly crashing under Windows 98. The file browser is brilliant--I can see my Linux partition and my Windows partition.

    Overall, I have to say the system performance is about 30% less slower than Windows 98. It's just a lot less snappy to browse the web or open the Open Office programs (maybe 20-30 seconds in Linux).

    I should mention my system is an old Dell 5100e laptop, 600 MHz, so that plays in here. May not matter much on a modern machine.

    Another downside is the availability of software. It may be sacrilege around Slashdot, but I don't mind paying for a decent user interface, a proper manual, and software support for things like accounting software, etc. Packaged software seems like it's a non-starter for Linux--I just don't see any.

    On the other hand, for most users, Xandros includes Open Office, and email reader, and a web browser, so this may fulfill some user's needs.

    I intend to keep my dual boot setup, in those rare cases I need to run software that isn't available for Linux. Quickbooks and Kazaa, for example.

    Xandros makes setting up a dual boot system quite easy for non-technical users, and it's very stable. I can imagine that for a lot of home users, this will be all they need.

    If you're fed up with spyware and viruses, and don't want your data locked in the Microsoft Office file format dungeon, nor want to be locked into the constant upgrades that are a part of the Windows world, then Xandros has what you need.

    I can be reached at my junk mail account, gregory underscore close at hotmail.

    Cheers,
    Gregory
    • Re:Well duh. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by vivek7006 (585218) on Tuesday April 06 2004, @11:39AM (#8780983) Homepage
      Maybe it's not as elegant or easy as M$ Windows, but it's not that bad

      Have you seen KDE3.2? It is more elegant and much easier to use than any versiion of windows IMHO
      • Re:Well duh. (Score:5, Insightful)

        by dave420 (699308) on Tuesday April 06 2004, @11:55AM (#8781194)
        You've not seen Deviant Art's XP visual styles [deviantart.com], have you?

        Seriously, that's why people use Windows. It's UI is tight. All the apps work the same and look the same. After learning one application, you can use any of them. Unfortunately that's not the same on linux. Lots of various different ways to make graphical apps means not every app looks and behaves the same. That lack of consistency turns people away.

        • Re:Well duh. (Score:5, Insightful)

          by SmilingBoy (686281) on Tuesday April 06 2004, @12:14PM (#8781458)
          All the MS apps work the same and look the same you wanted to say.

          But all the KDE tools work the same and look the same as well!

          It's just non-KDE programs that look differently, but so do non-MS programs.

        • Re:Well duh. (Score:5, Insightful)

          by avdp (22065) * on Tuesday April 06 2004, @12:25PM (#8781624)
          On Windows all the apps do not look or work the same by a mile. Not even all Microsoft apps look and work the same, i.e. Microsoft Office (XP and above) has its own look and feel that no other Microsoft app has.

          If anything, KDE does a better job there.
    • by millahtime (710421) on Tuesday April 06 2004, @11:41AM (#8781015) Homepage Journal
      "Maybe it's not as elegant or easy as M$ Windows"

      Elegance and ease is the key to an effective OS for the masses. It needs to become as elegant as M$ and OSX (or better) to go completely mainstream. If it's not then the average user, like my parents, won't give it a second look.
      • by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday April 06 2004, @11:45AM (#8781087)
        Bingo!! If our parents can't use it and be confortable with it then it won't gain acceptance with the masses. I would like to use Linux on all my CPU's but sadly I'm still teathered to MS because of both software and hardware support (software that only only comes in a MS flavor and hardware that is not 100% supported by Linux). Though my firewall and servers are Linux, my desktop OS remain MS.
      • there is an inlying problem though...

        1) you must stick to either kde, *box, gnome, etc. which users are not going to want to do

        2) distributions must have a SINGLE standard window manager

        and beyond that, the choices the users and distributions have to choose from must be up to par with windows & os x.
    • Re:Well duh. (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Rotting (7243) on Tuesday April 06 2004, @11:42AM (#8781032)
      I think linux is pretty good for the desktop. My only real compaint is not really the lack of support for newer hardware, but more the difficulty in getting this hardware to work properly.

      For example, if I could just install linux and have it autodetect my wireless nic and work properly with my scanner then I would be all for it.

      I am pretty sure this will come in time.
    • Re:Well duh. (Score:5, Interesting)

      by ElForesto (763160) <elforesto&gmail,com> on Tuesday April 06 2004, @11:44AM (#8781056) Homepage
      Trying is believing. I had been approaching Linux as a curiousity, a sort of hobbyist tinkering OS for people who had a lot of time to invest in learning and deploying the systems. And then I got charged with building a mail server. One Gentoo server later (complete with all the goodies needed to make Horde work properly), I've seen the light, that it's NOT hard to use, and that it's very simple to learn. The level of documentation is also far and away the best of any OS I've experienced. (I did find that it takes a little while to learn how to find and read documentation.) It is a far cry from my first attempt at Linux on a 486 almost 8 years ago.
    • Re:Well duh. (Score:5, Interesting)

      by AKAImBatman (238306) <akaimbatman@gm a i l . com> on Tuesday April 06 2004, @11:45AM (#8781081) Homepage Journal
      I've been looking at different Linux desktops lately, and I've come to the conclusion that there is only *one* viable GNOME desktop out there. When I considered which Linux to install, I realized that my current choices were thus:

      RedHat Fedora
      Mandrake
      Suse
      Java Desktop System

      I actually tried the most recent Fedora and found it to be useless. They refuse to ship NTFS support, MP3 support, or NVidia support. On top of that, my MS Intellimouse keeps locking up. That problem has been there since RedHat 8! What have these people been up to?

      That leaves Mandrake, Suse and JDS. Of those three, only JDS is GNOME based (actually quite nicely GNOME based). Thus KDE seems to have won the day.

      • I'm a bit of a Linux newbie (been playing around with it for years, but never for more than a day or two, here and there), but I've found Fedora to be a pretty good distro. I've always gone with Mandrake in the past for the eye candy and ease of config, but Fedora is a snap. And yes, I did have to take the 30 minutes to download the NTFS kernel driver and the version of XMMS with MP3 support (available from the Dag APT repository), but since then I've found it a piece of cake to use. Even wireless was su
      • Re:Well duh. (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Kethinov (636034) on Tuesday April 06 2004, @12:26PM (#8781638) Homepage Journal
        They [Fedora] refuse to ship NTFS support, MP3 support, or NVidia support.
        Here's why:
        The goal of The Fedora Project is to work with the Linux community to build a complete, general purpose operating system
        exclusively from free software.
        When the GPL talks about free software, they're talking about 1. open source and 2. free from restrictions. It ships with no NTFS support because NTFS is not free software (nonfree filesystem).

        They ship with no MP3 support because MP3 format is also not free software. You have to pay a royalty or something retarded to write programs to decode it. Granted most programs we use that decode them never payed such royalty, the law is still there. Even if everyone refuses to obey the law, it still exists.

        Finally, they ship with no nvidia support because the nvidia driver from the company is not open source and therefore does not fit the GPL's definition of free software. You can still use your nvidia card using the nv driver, sans opengl.

        Call this open source zealotry if you wish, but that's why they do it.
    • Re:Well duh. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by OneFix at Work (684397) on Tuesday April 06 2004, @11:46AM (#8781097)
      On the contrary. I use Linux on the desktop at work and home...the only use for windoze that I have are Photoshop, my photo printer, and games...the Photoshop thing is quickly changing, as GIMP is getting better and hollywood studios are pushing Wine to 100% Photoshop compatability. The printer is a Canon, which has no support in CUPS outside of TurboPrint...and Games are well, games...they don't matter as much in the grand scheme of things, considering that I have a PS2 already...

      But, with my experience, Linux on the desktop is MUCH more elegant than Windoze in every way. Under Linux, I have fewer crashes, better performance, and my choice of window managers. On Windoze, I have Windoze and a series of for-pay "hacks" to make my system look different.

      As far as ease of use, that's coming. With my system (Fedora Core 1 + Apt-RPM using Synaptic) I can install new software and upgrades at the click of a button. No downloads, no need to check dependencies, not even a need to uninstall the old versions of the software. Under Linux it just works...

      There's a quote in someones signature that goes something like "To really screw up Linux you have to work at it...To really screw up Windoze, you have to work ON it..." I think that sums up Linux on the desktop pretty well...
    • I find it much easier to fix a Linux install when it fails over time than a Windows install... Oh, wait. I've never had s Linux install fail over time.

      KDE / GNOME have always, IMO, been as easy to use as Windows. It was the configuring of the system that was a problem. Seeing as many people install a system (well, it comes installed... whatever), and never even change the screen size (probably no one here, but my mom, for example does this), the configurablity is only an issue in the initial install.
    • by lavalyn (649886) on Tuesday April 06 2004, @11:46AM (#8781099) Homepage Journal
      In the battle against software oppresion, the first front is destroying the onld UNIX systems.

      What's wrong with the old UNIX systems? Solaris still boasts of some functionality that Linux will probably take a few months :) to program and test. Think 128-cpu scalability, hot-swap CPU...

      Linux is just as capable of becoming corpulent and lazy as the dominant OS provider. And competition also keeps our security stance strong. There's a place for Solaris, and AIX, and yes, even Windows in the computing market.
    • by Baki (72515) on Tuesday April 06 2004, @11:55AM (#8781198)
      From an technical viewpoint, where is the fundamental difference? What do we gain by people switching form UNIX to Linux? Who says that switching away from UNIX is unavoidable and if not to Linux it must be WinNT?

      To take solaris as an example, but most of the same could be said about AIX and HPUX: almost all open source software running on Linux also runs on UNIX, just the same. It offers the same user environment. And in most cases it offers more mature threading and scaleability. Linux is still trying to catch up with UNIX. It has come close in many areas, but don't try to run it on an E10000.

      The only advantage for Linux over UNIX is price (both of the software and of the hardware).

      Of course I like switches from UNIX to Linux better than switches from UNIX to WinNT. But I would like switches from WinNT to UNIX or Linux much better. The only thing that counts is UNIX/Linux against WinNT.

      Remember, the UNIX world (of which Linux nowadays is a part) suffered because of divisions and internal disagreements. It is important to cooperate and stand united against the enemy now. If this sectarism continues it will damage us all (including Linux). Today it is Linux against UNIX, tomorrow it may be XY-Linux against AB-Linux or whatever.

      I don't say all UNIX & Linux variants must assimilate and become the same, but they should strive for the same common goal and together create an attractive platform to fight the real enemy.
    • by Soko (17987) on Tuesday April 06 2004, @12:04PM (#8781304) Homepage
      Too much attention has been given to linux on the desktop. In the battle against software oppresion, the first front is destroying the onld UNIX systems. Linux hurts the Windows monopoly more by having people who are switching from UNIX to Linux that from UNIX to the Win NT family. Thats where most of the effort should be applied (because thats where technology can actually be compared).

      Ummmm... I'd say it is doing exactly that - witness what's happened to Sun and SCO, both of whom are getting hurt badly by Linux. Microsoft is in a nip-and-tuck battle for server share too - their sales have grown, but not nearly as quickly as Linux has.

      Winning the desktop has nothing to do with who has the best technology of user interface. It has all to do with leveraging corporate power. Once many corporations are united with Linux on the server side, their corporate power will allow linux to take over the deskop, regardless of how good the software is. Apple has shown that it doesn't require a Herculian effort to make a usable desktop on a UNIX variant. Why are we wasting our resources?

      Understandable, but I think keeping the LotD issue in the forefront is taking a page out of BillG's business strategy book. That is:
      - Linux's core market is servers.
      - Microsoft trys to muscle in on that market, so Linux says "OK, buddy" and attacks Microsofts core market, the desktop.
      - Now, Microsoft must split resources to defend thier core market as well as advance on the new one
      - If Microsoft pushes to hard on the server front, they could lose thier huge dominance of the desktop market. Very bad for them.
      - if they defend the desktop market too strenuously, they won't make the headway they want on the server market. Still bad for them, as thier share price is predicated on huge growth.

      Microsoft has used this strategy before - they almost buried Novell this way. Novell had WordPerfect Office, so Microsoft ramped up Windows NT server development and took on NetWare.

      Turn about is fair play. Let's see how Microsoft handles a credible threat to thier core business that they can't just buy, bury or wish away.

      Soko
    • by RAMMS+EIN (578166) on Tuesday April 06 2004, @12:18PM (#8781528) Homepage Journal
      Ok, so you say that too much attention is given to Linux on the desktop, and we should focus instead on pushing UNIX out of the market. I have a comment on both of those opinions.

      First, pushing others out of the market. Why? I think the main reason for working on open-source software should be to improve that software. Since most developers work without (sometimes even against) commercial incentives, I don't think killing alternatives comes into play anywhere. On the contrary, having competitors means we can learn from them.

      As for Linux on the desktop, there are a number of issues to consider here. I am bored by the discussions whether Linux is or isn't ready for the desktop. It's on _my_ desktop, and I welcome any improvements to my desktop experience. That said, I don't think the desktop should be a priority. The beauty of the anarchistic model that open-source enables is that everyone can do his own thing. Some people improve server performance, others write drivers. Everybody wins.
    • What's so hard on "make && make modules_install" and then change ONLY a line in grub.conf or lilo.conf? Linux is easy. My nephew is using it since two years ago. He knows almost NOTHING about how computers work. He DOESN'T NEED A KERNEL RECOMPILE! That's what I'm for...
    • You haven't used a modern distro, it seems. They come with stock kernels. When upgrades happen, a new stock kernel is pushed to you from yum or up2date or apt (systems for keeping software current on different distros). You should only compile your own kernel if: 1) you're running on a specialized box and want to maximize performance (server, number cruncher, etc) 2) You're a hobbiest who wants a tuned system. Note that (1) isn't really necessary. You'll get a kernel that's specialized to your process
    • by aardvarkjoe (156801) on Tuesday April 06 2004, @12:05PM (#8781313)
      Easy is what people want ... Recompiling the kernal is not

      Yeah. Recompiling the kernel should be easy, just like it is in Windows.
    • by pandrijeczko (588093) on Tuesday April 06 2004, @01:06PM (#8782246)
      The chaotic nature of open source is it's limiting factor regarding interfaces.

      A totally paradoxical statement.

      Closed source implies that you are limited to use only the "interfaces" programmed by the owner of the source.

      Open source means that anyone can take the code and program in whatever "interfaces" they see fit to add.

      I'm not sure what you mean by "interfaces" but if you mean the "look and feel" of software, then that is governed purely by the programming libraries that exist in desktop environments - be they Windows, Gnome, KDE etc.

      Otherwise, you would have a far fewer number of applications around because programmers would have to spend much more time programming their own GUIs also, all of which would probably look completely different anyway.

      Your statement, assuming I have read it right, is entirely self-defeating...