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Linus Says 2004 is the Year for Desktop Linux
Posted by
michael
on Thu Jan 15, 2004 12:19 PM
from the huddled-masses-yearning-to-breathe-free dept.
from the huddled-masses-yearning-to-breathe-free dept.
lca writes "Linuxworld Australia has an interview with Linus Torvalds about the current state of the Linux desktop and where it will go this year among other things. Also discussed are topics such as hardware support, the SCO issue, and whether or not he will be moving to Australia."
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They missed one. (Score:5, Funny)
They didn't ask Linus if he paid his $699 licensing fee to SCO. It'd be a shame for him to have to stop working on their OS..
Re:Yet another... (Score:5, Funny)
"Every year we had been hearing that this year was to be the year of the LAN. Allsorts of hype, and eventually it died down, and when it did, LANs were everywhere."
I highly suspect that it is going to be like this for linux :)
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Re:Yet another... (Score:4, Insightful)
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Re:Yet another... (Score:5, Insightful)
That may be as far as
When 2.4 was stable and he started working on 2.6, Linus said he wanted to put in more features for desktop. Now, I don't know if you noticed, but Linux on servers has been working out pretty well during that time period. Now, it's desktop's turn (according to Linus) and we'll see what happens; even Linus admits that it's harder on the desktop:
The server space is easier to tackle first with any operating system as it can be applied to specific tasks such as mail serving; however, the desktop is harder to sell.
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Australia? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Australia? (Score:5, Interesting)
But what im curious about is why he says "I definitely won't be moving back to Finland though." Whats wrong with Finland?
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Re:Australia? (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:Australia? (Score:5, Informative)
I don't know about Linus, but it is damn dark and cold here. The days are in the middle of December only a couple of hours long, and you see the sun only a couple of times a month. It is something like the darkness you see in LOTR. No wonder Tolkien was interested in Finland. :-P
PS. The bandwidth is pretty expensive here too.
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Re:Australia? (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:Australia? (Score:5, Funny)
Must get damn expensive in cleaning products. I mean you gotta wonder why someone bright spark hasn't thought about making the stuff go down when you flush.
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Patience little one -- patience! (Score:4, Interesting)
No offense, (Score:5, Insightful)
--
Vegan World Order [veganworldorder.com] - Shut up and eat.
isn't kernel a part of it? (Score:4, Insightful)
I was wondering similar things myself on reading the headline. I haven't yet installed 2.6 on my machine yet, but I have heard that it is a bit 'snappier', which I believe goes a long way towards making the desktop seem like you are controlling it, rather than having it control you. The KDE / gnome work, is also very important, but a solid fast user-responsive kernel is a boon to anyone trying to sell anyone else on linux on the desktop.
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Re:No offense, (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:No offense, (Score:4, Insightful)
Don't underestimate the importance of a good kernel for the desktop. You need good multitasking support (low-latency context switching, an efficient scheduler, a good VM system) for the GUI environment to be responsive and zippy. You need a good infrastructure and API for device drivers to get the most out of your peripherals. People hate buying a fancy video card only to find that half the I/O ports aren't supported.
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Re:No offense, (Score:5, Insightful)
By Linus coming out and focusing on the desktop (even if just in words) he's effectively pointing the collective effort of the open source community more and more to that end.
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Re:No offense, (Score:5, Interesting)
This is what XPDE [xpde.com] is trying to do (clone the Windows XP interface). Except for the applications part...it provides a shell that looks like the Windows XP one along with a control panel and some other stuff (at least I seem to remember it having that stuff).
Personally, you can pry Window Maker out of my cold dead fingers...but I've been using GNU/Linux on the desktop full time for nearly four years. All the software I use works fine on GNU/Linux so I have no need for Windows. I just need a few games (Frozen-Bubble, LBreakout2, Legacy Doom, Quake2), Emacs, a web browser, and a simple DAW for my occasional audio work (Ardour [sf.net] is awesome for this). I'm not a "desktop user" I guess.
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Re:No offense, (Score:5, Insightful)
You know, I hear that argument quite a bit. But Windows 9x -> XP had a learning curve. Mac OS 9 -> Mac OS X had a learning curve. The same goes for applications. Every now and then the interface changes, and users learn how to use it. With OS, the vast majority just go with what's already installed when they buy it. Once Gnome and KDE are deemed useable enough to ship pre-installed on consumer PC lines by the likes of Dell, Sony, and HP, people will buy them as long as they can access all their files. They don't need to know that every widget will look the same. When people buy a new replacement computer, they say "Will I be able to view all my photos and listen to all my songs? Will I be able to access all my favorite web sites? Will I be able access my documents and spreadsheets?" If applications have full file compatibility, and the system mime types are set correctly, they won't care. They'll see right away that it's a little different, and they'll take the time to learn it, as long as the files open and the data is still correct.
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I would have to agree. (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:I would have to agree. (Score:4, Insightful)
The so called 'dummies" really don't care much about the operating system that they are using. They care much more about the applications that they are running. They also care about the availability of training and support for the operating system and applications.
The computer using world can be reoughly divided into two categories:
(1) People who want to think about the work their doing, but don't want to think about the computer technology they are using.
(2) People who want to think about the work they are doing and who like to think about how the computer is doing the work.
The first group wants reliability, stability, and transparency. They d not want to spend a lot of time fixing or upgrading their computer. They do not want to spend a lot of time working on a computer that crashes. They do not want to spend a lot of time thinking about how to do their work. Their main interest is in what works, not necessarily what works best.
They won't switch to Linux from something that is good enough to allow them to do their work. They may switch to Linux if they are upgrading a computer and it is clear that Linux will allow them to do their work without giving much thought to how the computer works.
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Re:I would have to agree. (Score:5, Insightful)
As much I don't feel like burning Karma here with Flamebait, this is exactly the reason it's not ready. It runs on a laptop with "few problems". Few problems is a reason enough not to switch.
Will my USB Camera work? Can 1-touch scanning be setup without the use of a complex script? Joe Dialup doesn't want to go to Sourceforge to find a piece of software called gkehjg2 just to get his device to install and compile (compile? what's that!)
The install for Linux is CLOSE, I believe Fedora(/Redhat) needs to handle their package selection better (why install isdn-tools defaultly??) and file systems scare all but people who use it daily.
Where are you files? "My Documents". How do you move it to another harddrive? "". How do you open it? "Double click it." How do you open that same file in a different program? "You can do that?"
For anyone on Linux, Windows seems like a "toy OS" because everything is hidden. Well, that's what most computer beginners want! They don't have time/don't care about a dependancy, they want it to work, NOW!
I like being the different person on the block, make it just a lil easier so people other than hobbists can use it, but not so secretaries of CEOs can and I'll be happy.
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Linuxworld server already melting... (Score:5, Informative)
Rodney Gedda , Computerworld
15/01/2004 15:43:16
This year will see Linux finally crack the lucrative desktop market as more commercial software vendors tool up and cash in on the operating system and kernel developers improve graphical interface integration says cult hero and Linux founder Linus Torvalds. Computerworld's Rodney Gedda cornered the penguin power supremo at the Linux.Conf.au in Adelaide.
Computerworld: How do you feel Linux on the desktop is progressing?
Linus Torvalds: Last year was good but I'm seeing a lot more noise about it this year. The server space is easier to tackle first with any operating system as it can be applied to specific tasks such as mail serving; however, the desktop is harder to sell.
Now, the kernel and other pieces are coming together including office applications, games and Web browsers. This has made the Linux desktop interesting to commercials. Commercials tend to choose one desktop, such as KDE or GNOME (GNU Network Object Model Environment), and stick with it. There has been some confusion and rivalry that has helped its development. Right now it looks like the two are closing in on each other, for example, with Red Hat's Bluecurve interface.
I don't think X is going away as it has a powerful infrastructure and throwing it away would be stupid. And its network transparency is good. It's likely that X will be the 2D interface to a lower-level graphics system that is based on OpenGL. The Linux desktop wants to have 3D as the base and X as the interface to 2D.
The fact that X and kernel development have been separate is good; one could evolve without the other but DRI (Direct Rendering Infrastructure) has made them not completely independent. As a developer, having the two separate is good, because different people are good at developing for each.
CW: Any plans for 2004?
LT: I've never had much of a plan for the direction of Linux as I react to outside pressure. This year there will be a lot of desktop users, which will impact kernel developers.
For now I will be working the stabilisation of kernel 2.6 and in a month or two I expect Fedora (the core of Red Hat Linux) to have a release with 2.6 so I expect to get more bug reports.
CW: Would adopting an integrated hardware and software system be good for Linux?
LT: There are pure technical disadvantages of having an operating system that supports a wide range of hardware. The variety of hardware makes it challenging as Linux needs thousands of drivers.
But having an operating system that is independent of the hardware is powerful for the user as it is basically the same on big and small machines. Another big advantage of a wide hardware base is an operating system that is more flexible. This is why Linux is having a lot of impact in the embedded space. An operating system is a complex beast, so it's nice to have an existing one that can be adapted to the hardware. There are a few problem spots with Linux driver support by hardware companies and wireless is one of them. With hardware getting better this problem is being solved.
CW: What about Linux in the enterprise?
LT: The direction Linux takes in the enterprise will depend on what resources enterprise companies put into it. This is the one thing that will push Linux into the high end.
IBM is the most obvious, and although it is impressive to run Linux on high-end hardware, most of the people who work on Linux don't have access to it. It's the regular desktops that get most of the attention by programmers.
CW: What about open source code bundling by commercial software companies?
LT: Quite often that's fine and it is fine with BSD (Berkely Software/Standard Distribution) code. But I like the GPL (General Public Licence), because I want people to give [code] back. If hardware appliance makers don't give back code then that's a problem, but giving it back shouldn't cause any problems. And
Agree (Score:4, Insightful)
Won't be moving back to Finland (Score:5, Funny)
Or is it "Can't move back to Finland"? Has he crossed the Finnish mafia once too often? Did he wake up to find smelt heads in his bed? What's the REAL story here?
This is why (Score:5, Interesting)
But the reason to live here are many: excellent education, health and public transport and beautiful living conditions: the whole city is embedded in parks. We actually don't have something you can call parks, the buildings and streets are actually connected together with large green areas. Basically, you can go anywhere through parks and woods.
Finns like to live close to nature, and somehow, wild animals feel comfortable in the presence of people. So it's easy to meet, even here, in the capital area, with squirrels, wild rabbits, pheasants, and sometimes even bears and wolfs (a bit more to the north, but still metropolitan area). I find this wonderful!
And then, there's the mentailty of the people, which I like so very much: Finnland have extremely low crime rate, and Finns in general don't lie (in any case, much less than any other nation I have seen, and I've traveled a lot), which makes life very simple. As a consequence, the administrative overhead to do anything, is very low. You can do most things by way of internet or just telephone.
So, it might not be your cup of tea, but for me it's paradise.
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Right... (Score:4, Interesting)
"Linus says 2034 really, really is the Year for Desktop Linux, honest! I'm pretty damn sure this time! I swear!"
Seriously, we hear that every goddamn year since 2002. It's an annual thing, like those stupid so-called analysts saying "Apple is dying this year".
It's not that I'm against it, in fact I am a desktop Linux user, but this is just ridiculous.
Desktop 3D? (Score:4, Insightful)
Um...Why do we want a 3D desktop? It seems to me that first of all, 3D is always going to be slower to manage and display than 2D; monitors (even the newer ones with the spiffy multi-layer technology) don't really handle 3D displays well. Yes, I want my 3D displays, such as they are, for gaming; I don't see any real need or use for it in a business desktop, though.
Feel free to correct me here, but I don't read text on a slanted pane very well...:)
Re:Desktop 3D? (Score:5, Interesting)
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Re:Desktop 3D? (Score:4, Informative)
Oh, and OS X isn't already there, contrary to popular belief. It uses OpenGL, but in a very limited way, only for compositing windows together. All 2D is done via the CPU, and its dependence on the PDF model might make it more complex for them to transition Quartz2D to OpenGL.
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Good enough for desktop matters not (Score:4, Insightful)
Yes, Linux is a suitable desktop replacement. I still don't see a significant number of people making the switch. What is the motivation for the average user who has invested time in learning Windows to switch?
Aside from impoverished goverments in third world countries (California anyone?) are the masses going to bother learning something new when what they have tends to meet their needs?
Re:Good enough for desktop matters not (Score:5, Interesting)
Well, I have some experience here. My mom ran windows for the last 3 years. She doesn't know computers, but that's what her DELL had on it. She has been it with virii and recently some adware that prominently displayed itself on her desktop.
Her computer runs slower and she doesn't know why. Probably unknown background processes chewing up CPU. All she does is email and surf the web, but the computer crashes and she is annoyed beyond belief with it. She is begging me to put something better on her machine, and she SPECIFICALLY asked for linux. She knows about linux as an alternative because I've mentioned that it's what I run on my machines. Her problems with windows have led her to conclude that she'd rather try something--anything--than continue running what she has. Oh yeah, she has paid "her guru" to come over and fix problems several times, and is tired of hiring someone to fix things that shouldn't be broken. So, an unstable, unreliable, virus-ridden, expensive operating system is its own incentive to switch. At least for MY mom.
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Interesting that Linus's laptop runs Windows too (Score:5, Interesting)
What's his latest toy?
A Sony Electronics Inc. Vaio, Japanese edition. It's a handheld PC that has a 4-GB hard disk, 64 MB of RAM and a Pentium MMX 266-MHz processor. It weighs in at just 2.6 pounds and runs both Linux and Windows. "It's cute as hell." Oh, and it has a built-in camera.
Now imagine Billy-boy using Linux (maybe just to give it a test-run) and talking publicly about it. That would never happen because of the expected PR backlash.
Linus, on the other hand can be as frank as he wants to, without an axe hanging over his head.
Interesting, though nothing earth-shattering. Open-source also supports Freedom.
Re:Interesting that Linus's laptop runs Windows to (Score:4, Insightful)
Interesting, though nothing earth-shattering. Open-source also supports Freedom."
Hardly.
I'd venture it's because the Slashdot community holds their villians to a higher standard than their heroes.
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Linux isn't user friendly. (Score:4, Insightful)
Think about this. How many times have you heard the terms "usability" and "open source" in the same sentence. Now how many times have you heard these same terms without the word "NOT". Have you ever heard of "yet another user interface"? No, instead we have software with names like yacc, Bison, and ANTLR (all of these programs are used in compiler design).
Look, I like Linux too, but as a server. It's just not ready for the desktop.
The Two Fronts to Desktop Adoption (Score:5, Interesting)
What finally got me to try Linux is when I read a post on Slashdot about Mepis [mepis.org], which, like Knoppix [knoppix.org], is a Linux distribution on a bootable CD. While I'd been aching to give Linux a try for years, I never had a spare box to run it, and I wasn't about to wipe XP and all my stuff off my main computer. If you haven't heard about it, Mepis is a full linux install and suite of software that you can boot off a CD and play with, without wiping your existing operating system from your hard drive.
After trying Mepis for just a couple hours, I fell in love. Everything from my optical mouse to my Nvidia drivers to my keychain drive worked without any installation. I'm going to go on using XP on my current box, but I now know that the Linux desktop is indeed ready for prime time. When I upgrade to a new system next year, Microsoft won't get a penny. I'm going to buy a whitebox system, and get myself a good Linux distribution.
I don't care how polished Linux gets; I think the only way it's ever going to get exposure to general users is on Mepis/Knoppix style CD ROMs that let people take the OS for a test drive. I really think that the best way to bring Linux to the general public is to distribute as many ten-cent CD ROMs as you can to friends and family, so they can see for themselves that there's no need to pay the Microsoft tax on their next PC purchase.
The way I see it, overcoming Microsoft's hegemony requires working on two fronts. The first is building quality distributions that work plug-and-play with everything from printers to wireless cards. And the second front is the creation of full-featured bootable CD's that let people see -- on their own machine -- how great Linux has become.
Again? (Score:5, Insightful)
'04 is not the Year of the Desktop for Joe Sixpack (Score:4, Insightful)
This is not a problem with the linux kernel, but instead a typical problem of market share in a marketplace dominated by a player with a high degree of monopoly power. Put more simply, the problem is not that Linux sucks, it just needs to have larger market share before hardware manufacturers pay attention and bother with the hassle of trying to deal with Linux (multiple distros, multiple DEs, etc).
However, 2004 will probably be the year where corporations start to move some of their enterprise desktops to Linux. With Novell and Sun both pushing Linux/GNOME solutions, and the less varied peripheral requirements of Linux in the corporate environment... things seem to be pointing in that direction. I would predict that "Year of the Desktop" makes more sense for 2005, when Linux will be building market share thanks to the corps, and hardware manufacturers start to pay more attention to getting things to work.
Though, for knowledgeable people who are willing to go through the hassle of getting devices to work with Linux, the Year of the Desktop was really 2003... at least for me it was. DVD, ALSA, OOo, MozillaFirebird.... these things help make the Linux desktop possible and they are here long before 2004 started.
What about Munich (Score:5, Interesting)
This isn't going to be the year of Linux on the desktop if that holds true generally.
its not neccessarily about the product (Score:5, Interesting)
however, i still do not feel that 2004 is "year of the linux desktop" because the market will not be ready for it. i will come back to my regular example - my mother. not only is she an occasional home user, but my mother runs a business of about 40 people strong who do medical aid claims processing. like many companies her size, she runs:
* Windows on Desktop
* Windows on Server
* Office on Desktop
* Exchange on Server
* ACCESS APPLICATION THAT WAS WRITTEN FOR HER
ok. so the first 3 you can pretty much wipe out with linux. the exchange thing, i still believe is a problem. i have been babblin on about good groupware capabilities in Linux for years and quite frankly i'm still shocked at the lack of a good alternative to exchange. although i am impressed by ximian's exchange connector - how ironic is running MS Exchange for your server and Linux on the desktop...
anyway. lets get back to the BIG PROBLEM - her access database package. in fact, when i go to my dentist - they've got some custom built access application. as does my physio. as do many small sized businesses.
the thing that will make it the year for the linux desktop will be a big "SWITCH"-like campaign. although all the pieces of the puzzle (ximian, 2.6 kernel, KDE, GNOME, CrossOver etc...) are available - they still need to be assembled to create the correct picture - and this will continue to take time. but i feel that a big assistant to this could come from some clever people like VMWare or Citrix. "ok, so you have this, this and that running on Windows - and there is no Linux version. ok, lets just run them in a thin-client/emulator". that will need a lot more knowledge from the small outsourced IT company my mother currently uses, and a bit more technical innovation. the long and the short: still more time.
Desktop Linux (Score:5, Informative)
With the commoditisation of gigabit networking and 64-bit machines (i.e. Opteron), it must be fairly easy for one server to support more than 40 desktops.
- Brain.
Re:people say a lot of stuff (Score:4, Funny)
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Re:people say a lot of stuff (Score:5, Funny)
At New York's Kennedy airport today, an individual later
discovered to be a public school teacher was arrested trying
to board a flight while in possession of a ruler, a
protractor, a setsquare, a slide rule, and a calculator.
At a morning press conference, Attorney general John Ashcroft
said he believes the man is a member of the notorious
al-gebra movement. He is being charged by the FBI with
carrying weapons of math instruction.
"Al-gebra is a fearsome cult,", Ashcroft said. "They desire
average solutions by means and extremes, and sometimes go off
on tangents in a search of absolute value. They use secret
code names like "x" and "y" and refer to themselves as
"unknowns", but we have determined they belong to a common
denominator of the axis of medieval with coordinates in every country.
"As the Greek philanderer Isosceles used to say, there are 3
sides to every triangle," Ashcroft declared.
When asked to comment on the arrest, President Bush said, "If
God had wanted us to have better weapons of math instruction,
He would have given us more fingers and toes.
"I am gratified that our government has given us a sine that
it is intent on protracting us from these math-dogs who are
willing to disintegrate us with calculus disregard. Murky
statisticians love to inflict plane on every sphere of
influence," the President said, adding: "Under the
circumferences, we must differentiate their root, make our
point, and draw the line."
President Bush warned, "These weapons of math instruction
have the potential to decimal everything in their math on a
scalene never before seen unless we become exponents of a
Higher Power and begin to factor-in random facts of vertex."
Attorney General Ashcroft said, "As our Great Leader would
say, read my ellipse. Here is one principle he is uncertainty
of: though they continue to multiply, their days are numbered
as the hypotenuse tightens around their necks."
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Re:people say a lot of stuff (Score:5, Funny)
(kidding!)
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Re:people say a lot of stuff (Score:4, Funny)
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Re:I think 2004 is make or break (Score:5, Insightful)
I personally think Linux is popular because of X,OpenOffice,Gimp,Apache,TuxRacer, etc etc, and ETC and there is nothing but more software coming out for the OS. I cannot imagine everyone throwing in the towel after 2004 if Linux doesn't take over the desktop: "Oh hell, forget it, this was to be THE year, but wasn't so let's shut the doors."
Also, a lot of people are already using Linux as a desktop and feel the "make" much more than the "break" already. If mass appeal picks up, great, but considering the effort that goes into the OS and the software that runs on Linux, to simplify one year as THE defining year for an operating system misses the point.
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Whoa there! (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:LINUS COULD CLAIM TO BE JESUS CHRIST (Score:4, Insightful)
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Re:LINUS COULD CLAIM TO BE JESUS CHRIST (Score:4, Insightful)
1. package managers,
2. Window managers,
He seems to like Xwindows, but he isn't saying we have to use it.
He wants to let us all fight among ourselves concerning standards and now Linux is the most fragmented OS in existence.
Well he does try to keep the fight fair which lends itself to the survival of the fittest and ultimately the best overall system.
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Re:And I agree. (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:MERGE! (Score:4, Insightful)
You want reasons? OK.
- One is C, the other C++. Many programmers of each project would find it difficult to switch over. I write C++ almost exclusively - switching to pure C is a wrench for me and I don't enjoy it so much. I can't imagine what a complex C++ class hierachy like KDE would look like after a bunch of C programmers 'maintained' it.
- Doubling the number of programmers even on a commercial project where everyone is paid to work doesn't double output. On projects where most of the work is on a volunteer basis, so people have to *really want* to work, the ratio would be even worse. Factor in the arguments caused by all those developers with different ideas, and you could end up actually lowering productivity.
- You can't tell volunteer developers what to do. If you shut down GNOME and said "now work on KDE", I guarantee that most of the GNOME developers would start up their own DWARF project within a week.
- Choice is GOOD. I don't like GNOME. Others don't like KDE. Who is right? Neither of us - it's a personal judgement.
What is a good thing is the increasing agreement on standard protocols for exchange between the two. "Desktop Linux" is not a product produced by development teams. They just make the components - distro makers take the projects and make an integrated desktop from them.
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