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British Health System Looks at Linux
Posted by
michael
on Mon Dec 08, 2003 01:05 AM
from the stop-the-spread-of-viruses dept.
from the stop-the-spread-of-viruses dept.
DanBrusca writes "The Observer is reporting that Britain's biggest employer, the National Health Service, may ditch Microsoft due to mounting licence costs. 'Richard Granger, NHS IT director, has ordered a trial of a Linux-based system from Sun Microsystems as part of a UKP2.3 billion computer modernisation plan. The plan could see Java Desktop software rolled out across the NHS's 1 million staff and 800,000 computers to replace Microsoft's Windows operating system and Office suite of programmes.'"
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first china... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:first china... (Score:5, Insightful)
Maybe it's because that corporation provides services like an on-site support contract?
Parent
Re:first china... (Score:5, Insightful)
Maybe it's because that corporation provides services like an on-site support contract?
To be fair though, there have been several Linux companies (Redhat and SUSE most prominent) that have offered support contracts. When Sun offers pretty much the same thing people take notice - it's amazing what a anme can do. Especially when you not that Sun is in decline (not irreversible, but let's face it, they haven't been doing quite so well the last few quarters) while Redhat and SUSE are both pushing ahead.
It will be interesting to see if uptake of Sun's Linux distro will see Redhat and SUSE's fortunes improve further - they are big names in the linux business, so if linux gets to be a name of note, all of a sudden they could start making some big contracts.
Jedidiah
Parent
when will it stop (Score:5, Interesting)
how long until they stop seeing it necessary to give linux a definition? i kinda wonder why they feel like 'quoting' open-source in this too, do they think they're lying? =D
Re:when will it stop (Score:5, Funny)
Windows is a 'closed-source' system for wrecking computers stolen by a young American student in the early 80s and rejected by thousands of programmers working together across the internet.
Parent
Re:when will it stop (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
How exactly is this a true statement? (Score:5, Insightful)
Not a troll, but Linux is immune from upgrades? This is not the way to convince people to use Linux, by implying that once you install/download Linux, you can walk away without any more upgrades. I wish he had been more clear about the costs involved instead of being so vague.
Re:How exactly is this a true statement? (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
Re:How exactly is this a true statement? (Score:5, Interesting)
However, for the sake of argument: if you look in general at a Linux-based system like this one versus a Microsoft-based solution, you will indeed find it is true that the Linux-based solution will be far less susceptible to forced upgrades. This is because Microsoft has two covert methods by which it forces upgrades:
- Associated software. If you go with the MS OS, you're probably going to be going with other MS software as well, for example Word. If you want to do this, you're going to continuously over time upgrade Word, both because MS continuously updates Word, and because you will have to keep upgrading Word in order to work with the new-version Word documents people send you. Over time this means that you will have to eventually upgrade your OS as well in order to run the newest version of Word. That sort of thing. With a Linux solution, you have access to the code and have the ability if you need to to (in an analogous situation) alter the OpenOffice and/or Linux itself so that a newer version of OpenOffice runs on an older version of Linux, or add support for newer document formats to the older OpenOffice you were running.
- Hardware upgrades. Over time, what if you want to perform partial hardware upgrades on some of your systems, or add new systems, but you wish to keep your network homogenous from a software standpoint? If MS does not choose to continue to add support to its OS for new hardware, and they often do not, then what do you do? You will be unable to work with the new hardware without performing an upgrade. With the Linux solution you have the ability to add support for new hardware yourself if the vendor chooses not to.
Both of these cases imply on the Linux side changes to the code, which is a sort of upgrade. However the open source model provides the *possibility* of doing minor upgrades to bring over crucial new features, rather than (say) having to upgrade all the way to WinXP from W2K, with all the baggage that implies, just to get one tiny little feature. Moreover they give you a large degree of flexibility in your choice of vendors. If the British health system needs changes to the system they are using, they may go to Sun and purchase the upgrade, OR they can hire an independent contractor of their choice, point them at the code, and say "add these features".And note that with everything I have said here, you can replace "Linux" with "Open Source" and "MS" with "Closed Source" and it works just fine.
Parent
Sweet.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, let me correct that. Everyone in the world but in the United States. Why is it that the US companies and organizations (starting with the ^$!* Universities!) are the only ones blind to the potential of FOSS (and the interaction between FOSS and a RAIS (Redundant Array of Inexpensive Students) hacking on it!), or at least to the fact that Microsoft will give them a discount if they at least look at the competition?
Re:Sweet.... (Score:5, Informative)
I agree about the universities, Microsoft is doing the RIAA thing and trying to buy their way into the classrooms for a propaganda war. Sad really that this goes under the radar to most people.
Parent
Re:Sweet.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Chances are very good that the person who made that decision is still in the same position. To now make a decision to move away from windows would be like admitting that you were wrong when you made a decision to move to windows in the first place. A CIO would rather die then to lose face like that.
American schools and hospitals will not even condier switching unless there is a turnover in the CIO position.
Parent
Re:Sweet.... (Score:5, Insightful)
It's also why Lexis-Nexus does so well. Lexis-Nexus is basically a case law database. It's almost always available for free by law students in the computer labs they have. Once they graduate and get out in the 'real world', they are used to the ease and familiarity of it that they keep using it, at whatever the going rate is (It's measured in dollars per minute).
It's OS and software crack.
Kierthos
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Row (Score:5, Interesting)
What's the chance that MS will be offering them a heavily discounted plan after this.
I might be a little cynical but could it just be the NHS trying to get a better deal from MS?
Re:Row (Score:5, Insightful)
And why the hell wouldn't they? That's one of the reasons I've gotten into FOSS - I want a big stick with which to beat Microsoft into submission with.
It's called competition, friend. Every time someone uses FOSS to get deep discounts on Windows and/or Office, it takes just a little more steam out of the Microsoft steamroller. I hate to wish ill on anyone, but this is good for the IT industry, IMHO.
It also makes a business case for evaluating FOSS, putting it into the minds (if not the hearts) of the PHBs. It will become a more common thing to have Linux installs, which will cause Microsoft's customers to make them conform to standards that everyone can live with.
All around, there is no downside here. Your cynicism is born from impatience, of wanting FOSS to win NOW. Patience, friend, and keep a clear head - intelligence, not emotion, is what we need to use in order to restore innovation and freedom to the industry.
Soko
Parent
Re:Row (Score:5, Insightful)
But the paradox here is that Netscape's achilles heel was that Microsoft could afford to give away a product that was competing with their main revenue source, forcing them to dramatically rework their business model. In the case of open source, Microsoft is on the receiving end of the same medicine.
Parent
Finally! Sun has a strategy... (Score:5, Insightful)
I have to admit that I wasn't sold on the 'Java' desktop (whatever), but it seems that they are pushing the right buttons here.
Re:Finally! Sun has a strategy... (Score:5, Informative)
Don't be so quick to discount Sun's desktop push. They're heavily investing into R&D and have a roadmap in front of them which will drive innovation on Java-equipped desktop clients.
For example, have a look at Project Looking Glass [sun.com] and the keynote demo [sun.com].
Parent
not important... my comment that is (Score:5, Interesting)
Good on Sun! Someone had to do it, and really, who else could have pulled it off? And dont say Apple
Great, Grand, Wonderful... Everybody on the BUS!
And headlines later this week on slashdot: (Score:5, Funny)
Java Desktop System name (Score:5, Insightful)
Not too surprising when you look at the numbers (Score:5, Insightful)
Where as the license savings on the 20 machines at work comes to a small enough amount we don't decide it's worth porting the one program we require on windows so we don't think about it much. We also however don't upgrade very often, 10 95's 5 98's and a few others just for testing purposes.
Now having said this, we're moving our product to linux, partially for the higher margins we can get when we don't have to pay license fees on the servers we sell and partially because the old OS is expensive garbage that should have been retired 10 years ago. The massive number of free tools helps with the move, and the advertising push people like IBM have been doing really helps with the customers and the boss. I actually saw my first Linux
The workplace is definitely changing and it's not at all like I guessed it would be 10 years ago when I started school.
Incomplete Headline (Score:5, Funny)
"British Health System Looks at Linux; Tells it to Quit Smoking and Exercise More"
About time (Score:5, Insightful)
Bah! (Score:5, Funny)
Let's see what happens next (Score:5, Insightful)
1. They threaten Microsoft and get their deep discount. Smart.
2. They buy into Sun and pay dearly for support as well as for rewriting all of their already working software. Stupid.
Somehow I think the entire point of this "switch" is to do #1.
Wouldn't it be more accurate... (Score:5, Insightful)
As others have pointed out this isn't a victory for Linux...Sun isn't exactly the biggest fan of penguin branded OS and kernels. Heck they don't even call it Linux.
Let's take a moment to think about this (Score:5, Insightful)
Not a hope in hell (Score:5, Informative)
This is pure dealing with Microsoft, there is not a hope that Linux will be generally taken on.
And Microsoft will recognise that too.
If they had wanted to take it seriously, they would have required Linux solutions when they put out the original tender in April. They didn't.
its about time too! (computer virus problems) (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Britain's biggest employer is Health? (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:Britain's biggest employer is Health? (Score:5, Insightful)
It's not up to the employers most of the time to decide. My guess is nothing happens unless they have a radical view at things and threaten quit quit if they have to switch.
Parent
Re:Britain's biggest employer is Health? (Score:5, Interesting)
Of the doctors in my hospital who know what an OS is, Linux gets a mention more often than not as a preferred platform.
Most people here run basic MS Office apps (and usually run them basically) and connect to legacy databases using terminals. Some people make their own Access databases but the IT people really hate that - you know how it goes: individual makes DB in Access, time passes, undocumented and poorly implemented Access database becomes the lynchpin of a Ward, originator leave, everyone's up shit creek.
We are migrating from '95 to XP and everyone is getting lots of training. This training could just as easily have been applied to Linus apps.
Parent
Re:Britain's biggest employer is Health? (Score:5, Insightful)
Whilst they may be looking at using Linux, to move the whole organisation across (remember that it's the second largest non-military employer in the world) will take years, if not a decade. That's a lot of time for outside interests to derail the whole process.
Parent
Locked in to Windows (Score:5, Informative)
I have yet to find a way to get past Exchange and Citrix effectively. We looked at a few solutions that cames close, but the administration costs FAR outweighed the licensing savings (although Citrix licenses are astronomical). The other problem is that our document management system (necessary by law due to Sarbanes-Oxley Act) is iManage which only works with office and costs $75K.
Parent
Re:Britain's biggest employer is Health? (Score:5, Insightful)
since when do end users get a say in their operating system? the doctors have the exact same amount of choice with the linux system that they had with the windows system: zero.
Parent
Re:Britain's biggest employer is Health? (Score:5, Informative)
When I worked there most of my work was word processing (Word 97), email (GroupWise...wise my ass) and accessing online patient records through a terminal. All of this can be done on any platform, except I suspect that few of them crash as consistently and spectacularly (sp?) as a Windows 95 installation.
I am sure that there are specific, necessary programs in use that are Windows-based, but I am also sure that it would not be the first time that they had to write new software for their special requirements (the aforementioned ICSIS (sp) program for checking patient info, for example)
Parent
It's easy they can... (Score:5, Funny)
He called me complaining that I should have tried harder to convince him to switch away from Windows.
Parent
Re:Britain's biggest employer is Health? (Score:5, Insightful)
I understand where you're coming from, friend - not wanting to take anyone's freedom away. However, a doctor's function is to heal patients, not architect Information Systems. As long as the systems put in place provide him with the information he or she needs, in the form needed when it is needed, there should be no problem at all, after the initial learning curve.
As an IT professional, I know how to heal a sick computer, but for sick humans I refer them to a more much more qualified professional - a Doctor. The reverse should also be true.
Soko
Parent
Re:Britain's biggest employer is Health? (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
And just what's wrong with that? (Score:5, Insightful)
Oh My God. A health system where you will be treated regardless, where you can get a heart bypass, a kidney transplant, cancer therapy or IVF treatment without someone first asking for your health insurance details or your credit card number and you choose to dismiss it because it's egalitarian?
I'm sorry, but I think a government has a few basic responsibilities towards its citizens. Making sure that it does its best to keep them all in good health by providing them all with decent medical care regardless of their ability to pay or their social standing is a good thing.
A sick child that needs a vital operation is a sick child that needs a vital operation. Whether or not her parents can afford to pay for whatever it takes to make her well again should not factor into the equation.
If this is what you decry as "socialist" then give me a "socialist" society any day of the week.
Parent
Re:And just what's wrong with that? (Score:5, Insightful)
'Realise'? It's one of the things I'm most proud of about my country.
Of course it's 'socialist'. It's also extrememly popular, and no political party dares to change it other than to tinker with some details. All the parties know full well that to run on a platform of removing the socialist NHS would be electoral suicide. Even Margaret Thatcher was too 'socialist' to dismantle the NHS. The *performance* of the NHS is a political hot potato. The *principle* of an NHS 'free at the point of use' is something every party has to support strongly to stand any chance at all in elections.
Parent
Re:And just what's wrong with that? (Score:5, Informative)
If you don't want to pay medical bills, don't get friggin' sick in the first place.
Wow, what an insightful position. I suppose you can somehow chose whether or not to be born with a congenital illness can you? Or to grow up in an environment where, say, TB is present? Or whether or not to get hit by a drunk driver? Or to contract leukemia? Or cancer? Or to need a working kidney?
Who knew it was that easy!
Here's a related story that you'll like.
In the 1990s, the US Agency for International Aid (USAID), which was set up specifically to help the poor in developing world nations, put the US itself on its list of developing nations, and started providing assitance to housing and poverty projects in Washington DC, Boston, Seattle and elsewhere. In 1994, USAID took a group of Baltimore healthcare workers on a field trip to Kenya in a bid to boost that city's child immunisation rates. Before visiting Kenya, which boasted a near 100 percent record, only 56 percent of Baltimore's infants were effectively immunised. After learning from the Kenyans, Baltimore managed to improve that figure to 96 percent.
Clearly, Baltimore made a big mistake in seeking to improve the health of its future generations. All it's succeeded in doing is making them "weak and spineless". Yeah, right.
Parent
Re:And just what's wrong with that? (Score:5, Insightful)
If you don't see how it's in your interest that your fellow citizens are fit and able to contribute to society rather than be sick, infirm and unable to work then you're rather more short-sighted than I first thought.
(Oh, and if you have any more insightful comments to make, then please do so while logged in. After all, you're not ashamed of your opinion, so why post as an AC?)
Parent
Right tool for the right job. (Score:5, Insightful)
Hmmm.. Installing software or hardware in this sort of environment shouldn't be left to users in the first place. If YOU don't know what you're doing that's your own problem.
I know plenty of doctors offices locally either using Unix-based apps under Windows (which really sucks), or are still using DOS-based ones (Wow, pick your poison). Please keep in mind that a national healthcare network shouldn't have to worry about whether or not it can play Half-Life 2.
Parent
Re:Linux for front end machines? (Score:5, Insightful)
The rollout will be for generic office type machines, noting lab results, appointments, taking notes, rosters, and that hundred and one other, non-life-and-death uses.
Parent
Re:Linux for front end machines? (Score:5, Informative)
Some medical companies, names upon request, use Windows NT as the OS that runs their diagnostic and monitoring devices.
Many come with a warning to restart the device daily.
No joke.
Parent
Re:I'm all for this but... (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
I'm all for this! (Score:5, Informative)
The way that they use computers (mainly for work) is fairly simple. My Dad will use some form of presentation building software - for preparing talks at meetings, a web browser - for filling in his "education" points list, and a word processor - for writing letters. That's it - for work both at home and at the hospital where he works. I've found that once the computer has Linux installed on it, he's got no real problems (using GNOME as a Window Manager) doing this tasks. He likes StarOffice Impress, and he's commented that Galeon is faster than Internet Explorer.
My Mum, is generally the same, she needs a scanner - for preparing practice booklets, or information leaflets, a word processor, an email client, and that's about it. At work, she says, I just "put in my password, click OK, and then click on the program icon". Now, that's not something that'd be hard to implement on Linux. Also, being part of a General Practice, they have to purchase their own computers, and software. She has commented before on the cost of the software, and how it seems to be "paying a lot for not very much".
My thoughts? Can Linux be implemented as a desktop implementation for users? Definitely. The user does not need to install software, or hardware for that matter - they cannot at the moment, as they're not "administrators" on their own machines.
Remote management would be easier, IMHO, and there'd be less problems with network floods due to virii that inevitably end up on the Windows systems.
The Police in our area, West Yorkshire, UK, have already made the switch and are running their systems on Linux. This, to me, is an indicator of how Linux, when properly implemented, can be used on the desktop. If the NHS do come up with a decent solution, I'd imagine they'll see the benefits (probably mainly cost benefits).
This post is based purely on personal experience
Parent
Re:Sigh... (Score:5, Insightful)
Now the above sounds crazy, sterile environment causes problems. But think about evolution, in a normal environment these resistant germs might not be prevalent because they cannot compete with other germs. But if something removes the other germs then voila MRSA. They have nothing controling their spread.
When I lived in the UK I viewed the BBC as very biased, the education system as decrepid and the NHS out of control.
Now I live in the US I see the BBC as the paragon of unabised reporting, the UK public education system as an ideal and the NHS as a very vital piece of public infrastructure.
Where is the US liberal media I read so much about? Why does a country that prides education so much have a high illiteracy rate? You have many doctors but hardly any public healthcare.
In short, it's better to have a large unwiedly public healthcare system than not have one at all.
Parent