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Moving Your Kids to Linux?
from the introducing-todders-to-tux dept.
"My real motivation to do this is to save money and to teach my children that sometimes the best isn't always the most expensive. Also, being the cheap bastard that I am, I'm looking at all the money we've spent on Windows XP, Office and all the games over the years, and I'm wondering if there isn't a way to slowly supplant Linux into the mix and not sacrifice my children's computer experience but at the same time save some money and teach them something new.
My requirements are simple: I would like them to run their CD-ROM based games (which are mostly Director based games from Hasbro), and I would still like them to chat with their friends and also be able to play online Flash and Shockwave based games from Yahoo and Shockwave.
I believe I'm looking at an OpenOffice situation to replace Office, I suppose that would be fine and I think would work out (they aren't required to have perfect Word compatibility, its basically type a paper, and print it). For chat we're probably OK too, because something like GAIM would be fine -- Jabber based things would also be cool.
But my real concern is the CD-ROM games and Windows based games. I can't see my 3 year-old putting a CD-ROM into the drive and expecting it to auto-load and run like it does on XP -- without issues -- even with a perfect installation of WINE, hey, maybe I'm wrong, but is there a way to have it work as good as windows?
I've thought about loading up Mandrake and getting WINE working to see if it'll work out, but I'm not sure that I should waste my time, so I thought I'd ask some readers here if they're run into this situation and if I'm just crazy for thinking that this would be the wise thing to do at the expense of my children's computing experience."
Here's an idea... (Score:4, Insightful)
Well, since you asked for advice on raising your kids:
Move them off the screen altogether.
Nothing is going to promote the development of bad O/S interfaces more than indoctrinating young children to their quirks and bad design.
Why not encourage books and hands-on creative outlets rather than computer screens? Do you think they really need to learn about computers at age 3 and 7? Maybe the 11 year old, but I shudder to think you would try to teach your kids ANY OS at such a young age.
Let them enjoy life for awhile before they have to deal with an OS.
Re:Here's an idea... (Score:4, Insightful)
and at that age I didn't JUST use the computer: my mom still read to me, taught me my ABC's and 123's and by the time i hit kindergarden i was already at a 2nd rgade level.
At that age parents control the computer: let your kids experience it but in moderation and they'll be better for it technologically, but be sure to enrich them too
Parent
Re:Here's an idea... (Score:5, Insightful)
There's a direct correlation between music ability and mathematical ability (and good grades in general). Plus, you'll strengthen their fingers if your child ever becomes a
Parent
Re:Here's an idea... (Score:5, Interesting)
Computers are a necessary part of the educational process. Not only are they gaining popularity in the classroom, but they're a fantastic research and learning device. They're more interactive than television, and can be a great secondary source to books (reviews, discussions, etc.) and toys (lego programming languages and the like).
I think it's more likely than not that these kids have toys, games and educational materials beyond the computer. Don't let the fact that you weren't 4 or 7 when you started using the box stop other people from teaching their kids early.
Parent
Re:Here's an idea... (Score:5, Interesting)
Starting them early gives them an advantage. I was editing autoexec.bat when I was 7 and 8 years old, building machines when I was 13. Now I pay for university tuition and books by having programming and hardware jobs. (Debt free student.) Learning early pays.
Parent
Re:Here's an idea... (Score:5, Insightful)
My son is ten and has been using computers since he was about two. Right now we're playing a lot of WCIII. But he's also a lego fanatic in love with Bionicles, we play board games including chess, mastermind, and monopoly. We read nightly for at least 30 minutes, and often longer. He's not much into team sports, but he does loving his scooter and swimming.
I'd say he is enjoying life.
(And every time one of his games won't work or the OS screws up he gets to hear me about how crappy I think Windows is as an OS.)
The danger lies in kids thinking that computers or TV or chess or dance or *anything* is the be all and end all in life. Give them lots of outlets for their natural abilities they'll use them. A couple of weeks ago my son spent all day watching TV. But that was okay with me -- the next day we did a lot of different things and watched almost no TV. If he ever gets to the point where he seems to spend all his time on any one thing, I'll be worried. Until then, it's okay.
Sean.
Parent
Re:Here's an idea... (Score:4, Funny)
BOO SKEEN!!! *cries*
Parent
Re:Here's an idea... (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:Here's an idea... (Score:5, Insightful)
You obviously don't have kids. Kids, especially very young kids, want to do what they see their parents doing. And if dad is a geek...
My kids were using computers at three years old - because they wanted to "play" with the mouse and such. True it was a mac. But that only shows how easy macs are to use.
Parent
Re:Here's an idea... (Score:5, Informative)
I am 61 and I've been hammering the keyboard since grad school in 1968 and have been programming professionally since 1980. I have never had problems with my wrists or fingers, except that I type faster than I ever have, and sometimes my mind thinks one thing and my fingers type (accurately) another, usually because I think, while I type, in terms of words and phrases, not letters.
About 10-12 years ago I had the symptoms of a heart attack while setting at the keyboard: numbing jaw and left arm, pain in the chest, and a clammy feeling with mild persperation. Alarmed I rushed to the doctor, who put me on a treadmill and gave my heart a clean bill of health. His next question was "do you spend a lot of time using a computer keyboard?" "Yes, why?" "Adjust the height of your chair & keyboard so you are not using your shoulder muscles to keep your arms elevated." Problem solved.
Parent
my kids (Score:4, Interesting)
The oldest one (8) is getting good at loading Mozilla and is learning how to type using emacs. The younger two just like all the nifty xscreensavers
They're so cute!
Re:my kids (Score:5, Funny)
I might as well file for unemployment now... I still can't figure out how to work that damn thing
Parent
New math (Score:5, Funny)
The new math?
Re:New math (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
The best situation... (Score:5, Insightful)
Have one PC for the things that they NEED Windows to run, and let them use it only for that. The other should run your free-OS of choice and related software.
As they grow older, teach them the difference, the improvements, and continue curtailing use of the Windows machine until it's just an expensive doorstop.
Very few migrations are successful when done immediatly and cold-turkey. Some are, but they are far and few between---especially when children are involved.
Re:The best situation... (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:The best situation... (Score:5, Interesting)
Parent
http://www.linuxforkids.org/ (Score:5, Informative)
Mats
Careful... (Score:5, Funny)
Old problem, new twist. (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Old problem, new twist. (Score:5, Funny)
M@
Parent
Ha! Good luck. (Score:4, Insightful)
Kids' websites tend to be about the same. I run Opera and Moz at home and when my brother comes to visit we often discover that his favorite sites -- all flash intensive with tons of cool intel/windows only games -- don't work so hot. We have the same problem with my Mac.
As for open office...i'd have to say that it's not as kid friendly as MS office, which is NOT kid friendly at all. No office suite is. I pine for the days of Bank Street Writer.
If your kids are under 12, you're probably going to meet a lot of resistance to your plan. I don't think it's worth it...especially since it's so easy to teach kids WHY linux is good when they're older. Young kids don't understand the value of a dollar nor the importance of freedom and until they do it's silly to force it on them. When they hit high school, then's where you spring your plan -- by getting them their OWN pcs, older machines running Linux, for school use.
Re:Ha! Good luck. (Score:5, Interesting)
Young kids understand what they are given the opportunity to learn. My 2-year-old knows what money is, and she knows that we have to buy things before we can take them out of the store. She knows where to put the item on the checkers counter, and at which point she will be able to handle the item again. That these things are bought with money shouldn't be difficult for her to understand, and if she hasn't figured it out already it's only because I prefer to be cashless.
Likewise, any kid that has been grounded or put in time-out knows the value of freedom. Relating it to software may not be a simple thing, but they already understand the basic concepts.
The whole "kid friendly software" thing is a straw-man. How many of us had kid friendly software when we were kids? Even the games I loved and played all the time would be considered kid hostile by todays standards, and yet I, a kid, had no problem using them.
Retraining is an adult issue, not a kid issue. Kids adapt quickly and easily, they have to; the bulk of their first 20 years is largely training and retraining.
Parent
No parental filters; the kids get the vt100 (Score:4, Funny)
Macromedia (Score:5, Informative)
Unfortunately, the Flash player for Linux [macromedia.com] is still at version 5. Not a huge problem, as most Flash apps are still compatible with 5, but it does mean that you will run into problems until they release an update.
Flash 6 for Linux (Score:5, Informative)
http://www.macromedia.com/software/flashplayer/spe cial/beta/ [macromedia.com]
It works great!
As for Shockwave, it works great if you install the Windows version with CodeWeavers CrossOver plugin.
Parent
Dear Slashdot, (Score:5, Funny)
My question is: What distro would you recommend for a new-born? Does anyone here have experience teaching unix administration to infants?
A follow-up question:
I generally spend my time on the command line, but I could see how it might be a difficult concept for a child to grasp in its first few years, especially while its motor controls are still developing. (i.e. no touch-typing yet).
I guess I'd be willing to load down the old box with a gui, but the question is, which one?
I'm thinking KDE 3.0., but is there maybe a more lightweight desktop that could be more intuitive for a young child? Remember, it won't be able to read menu items for a few years, so an intuitive graphical interface is very important.
Any thoughts are welcome.
Command line is fine for a toddler... (Score:5, Funny)
Hey don't worry about it.
It may look like your 1 year old is pounding random sets of keys with her tiny fists, but she's really just typing Emacs key-sequences...
Parent
Actually my 9 mo. old loves my mac (Score:5, Interesting)
Seriously, my iMac is the easiest way to put my baby to sleep... making it a wonderful investment!
Of course, he likes the light on the optical mouse and is always reaching for it and trying to chew on it... which is not a good thing.
I think it would be nice to have a simple rugged PDA type computer to use as a baby toy... it could play music with bright colors.. and run simple little games for toddlers.
Parent
Worth it? (Score:4, Informative)
Now there are many applications where Linux has some incredible advantage over Windows. Professional workstation use, server, power user desktop, multimedia playback (freevo/mplayer is very HTPC friendly...), but I'm not sure edutainment works in this area *if* you already have a licensed copy of Windows. There is no reason compelling you to upgrade to the latest and greatest MS, if Win98 worked fine, why buy XP? I think you'll find a lot of problems encountered during a three year old's use of a computer will happen regardless of the OS, and Wine will not likely meet your expectations as a full Windows replacement.
You can use free software with your Win98 (or XP, or 2000). OpenOffice doesn't require linux, and a lot of free applications now run under Windows.
Programming (Score:4, Informative)
If you first use the computer to use applications, then you will forever think the computer is a device for word processing, viewing web pages, and the like. As you learn more applications, you will think that the computer can do more, say allow you to layout pages, but you will miss the main point of the computer.
The computer is a tool. If the first thing you learn to do is code, you will see that the computer is a tool for processing input, and generating output. That's all it does, but it does it very, very well.
I have been in a classroom environment where we were told to make a change to a single spot in an entire web site (~70 pages). Out of 20 people in the room, 19 of them opened FrontPage, made the change, and repeated. I wrote a script and finished in 5% of the time. They used the computer for what they thought it was for, applications, and I used it for its real purpose, processing data.
Be careful... (Score:4, Insightful)
I think that, as you observed, since some things don't work as well as Windows, you'll have a problem if you try to get them converted.
My suggestion is to ensure that you can set up for them the majority of what they want, and then dual boot.
Make a point of never using XP yourself. Make sure you're seen in front of them running some really slick and attractive WM. With lots of shiney customizable things that can be tinkered with.
When they see you playing with it, they'll be interested. But if you put it in front of them and preach that "Its better! Its cheaper! Its magic sliced bread doohicky!" you won't get anywhere.
Let them have an account that'll let them do as much as possible that they could under XP, and let them tinker with it. They may tire of it, or they may be intrigued.
But either way, I bet you'll wind up with them learning less than if you tried to force them.
No, no, no, you've got it all backwards... (Score:5, Funny)
absolutely yes - my evil plan (Score:5, Funny)
Not only do I want to move my 2.9 year old daughter onto Linux, but I've told her that immediately after potty training, she is to learn a high level language, or at least SQL. She should also be able to install releases such as Mandrake and Lycoris.
Then in a few years, I fully expect her to be able to handle Java and
By the time she's 13 or 14, she should have assembler under belt. With this knowledge, she can and should be able to write device drivers.
On my side, my goal is to find a job telecommuting, while 'home-schooling' the kid - who's computer science assignments will be doing my work for me so I can pursue the life of leasure I so richly enjoy.
And if you believe all that, I've got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you
I tried to install Linux on my son (Score:5, Funny)
why, why, why? (Score:5, Insightful)
I've noticed a lot of people saying "Well, I put Linux on my mom's computer," and now someone wants to make their kids use Linux?
Your kids might grow up to be great sysadmins if you do that. But if they're aren't computer lovers, your kids will just end up having an adversarial relationship with computers, and another generation of technophobes will be born.
While it's true that kids are flexible, and won't have much trouble figuring out the differences between the Windows or Mac they use at school and the Linux box at home, cutting your kids off from games, homework assignments, etc just because you like Linux so much is a bit of a rash decision. Don't you want the best for them?
Easy migration to Linux... (Score:5, Funny)
Well this is what I found... (Score:4, Informative)
Here's the problem... The schools TEACH windows and MS-Office.. the teachers do not care about abilities but Rote-memorization.. like "what menu is used to create a table in word" if you dont exactly follow what the teacher wants.. to get it wrong... doesn't matter if you were sucessful. add to this that sites like NICK.com and cartoonnetwork use alot of shockwave for the games.. that break under linux.
also, if your kids's friends use MSN chat or the other non friendly chat systems then those also break.. Yahoochat works fine for me under linux, but then I eliminate any chat apps for my daughter... there is no reason for her to get sucked into the chat addiction.. she can use the phone... and as for filtering... I blatently use Squid and a good blocker file. It's a transparent proxy, you cant get around it unless you hack it or hack my login on it.. and it is there to keep the HTML porn emails from forcing their way in front of my daughter's eyes on her email account. her account has only been used by friends of hers and as a login information for nick.com and cartoon network.. so one of those companies sold her email address to a spam list that was bought by some aisan porn sites.. nice... a blocking proxy is required, even when you supervise... porn adverts force themselves into our lives. and squid keeps them from being visible... at least the pictures...
The kids can translate to linux easily... It's just the education aspect and possible breaking of shockwave games that really keep my daughter from loving linux.
Been There, Done That (Score:5, Insightful)
OpenOffice works fine for all their school work, and they connect fine to the school's wireless LAN. They can connect to the shared drive in school to save work, thanks to Samba.
However, web sites are a different matter. Linux doesn't do Director so they all were pissed about not being able to do much with Nick.com, Disney.com, CartoonNetwork.com, etc. until I got them all CrossOver Plugin and installed the Shockwave Director plugins.
Fortunately RealPlayer, Xine and MPlayer are good enough for playing all media content. This will be 100% true when Mplayer makes the latest install easier and handle Quicktime Sorensen better.
Best kid's software (Score:5, Insightful)
The best computer you can give to your kids is one that powers on, boots, and doesn't do much else. Kids are really, really smart.
parent = sysadmin? (Score:5, Interesting)
As others have pointed out, the truthful answer is to revert to Windows 98. So why even mention Linux?
What if you asked if they wanted to try out a different OS with different games? Then, install a copy of RH or Mandrake and all of the free games that come with it. Then, set up KDE/Gnome with the right age-appropriate menu for each kid. In this way, you will be using Linux's flexibility to give your kids a better user experience.
Also, what about investing in a bigger HD and copying the CDs to the drive so that your 3 y/o doesn't have to swap CDs and rely on autoload. You could even consider installing VMWare (or maybe Wine, if it turns out to work) so that your kids can go into Windows when/if they want.
Over time, each of your kids will develop preferences on which OS they like.
One caveat, however: One of the best ways to learn about computers is when they're not quite working 100%. Let your kids learn from this on their own. Sometimes, it may take a few hundred program crashes to motivate a kid to read a few HOWTOs.
COMPATBILITY MODE! (Score:5, Informative)
This comment is late in the discussion, and I know it probably won't get modded up because of that, but Windows XP has a great built-in solution to that problem. It's called Compatibility Mode.
If you right-click on the program icon, click properties, and click the Compatibility tab, you can tell Windows XP to run a program under "Windows 95 mode" or "Windows 98 mode." This makes the program think that it's running under an older version of Windows, so it (presumably) won't crash because of the new 2000/XP APIs.
Also, it sounds like you've made little effort to diagnose the crashes. Hey, if you want to learn Linux, and have your kids learn Linux, reading system logs is going to become necessary. Start with the syslog for XP. It's in Control Panel -> Administrative Tools -> Event Viewer. Look for any events in the System log around the time your computer was crashing.
I had a friend who was having major problems with XP. XP really doesn't crash that much on a good system. However, he was getting several BSODs a day. I asked him to look in his System log. Guess what it said?
"The driver has detected that device \Device\Harddisk0\DR0 has predicted that it will fail. Immediately back up your data and replace your hard disk drive. A failure may be imminent."
Um. Whoops.
System logs and Compatbility mode are your friends! I'm not trying to discourage you from running Linux, which I think you should at least check out, but you need to fix the problems you have with XP before you move to Linux. Don't go to Linux because "XP crashes" (it shouldn't crash unless you have a problem, which might show up in Linux as well) -- go with Linux because you like it better or it does what you need. In the meantime, troubleshot your XP box and try out compatibility mode -- they will make you a much happier camper.
Re:Don't rely too much on WINE... (Score:5, Funny)
Are you crazy? Unless he gets the three year old started on Emacs now, there is no way his kid will know the key commands for it by college.
Parent
Re:Don't rely too much on WINE... (Score:4, Informative)
I personally suggest GNOME or IceWM for speed. Open Office or Abiword will work well with reports. Get the Mandrake Box Set and it comes with Star Office. Star Office has many templates and nice clipart. Most sites work fine with Mozilla, and again, the Box set comes with Flash plugins. Netscape6/7 is another possibility, though usually if the sites insists on that over mozilla, it is usually a so called security concern. GAIM will support pretty much every IM protocol out there.
Parent
Re:Bad timing (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Bad timing (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually, I disagree. Bring your kids up with what you believe in. When they're young, they'll follow along and soak it up. When they get old enough, they'll start to learn about alternatives and may want to explore them. This is where you as a parent should get out of the way.
- DDT
Parent
Re:Bad timing (Score:5, Insightful)
it actually might be a fairly successful and worthwhile task to tackle. consider this:
back in the early 1900s and up to the present, though it's less prevalent today, a lot of children who were in american schools had parents who had immigrated from another country and were incapable of speaking english. they quite successfully learned to speak their parents' language at home, and english at school and with friends.
so here's my point: what's wrong with your children using linux/macos/etc. at home and another at school and other friends' houses? revolutions start small, don't they? just think how awesome it would be if your child were at a friend's house and said 'your computer can't do this? well mine can.' maybe it'd make someone else curious.
give credit where credit's due. kids are incredibly resilient (i'm learning this from my daughter as we speak). the more flexible and open you can keep them, even if it's by them using multiple OSes, the better off they'll be.
Parent
Re:Bad timing (Score:5, Interesting)
I have an 8 yr old bro and although he doesn't use a computer much, I always maintain one in his room for his use. I used to dual boot win98 and linux on his computer like mine (except mine dual boots w2k) so he can choose what he needs for the games he plays. Turns out, he used linux more often than the windows.
Eventually my "support" for his win9x became a nightmare and I just asked him point blank "do you need windows?" and his response was "no, I mostly use Linux".
Parent
Re:Math quiz (Score:4, Insightful)
Hmmm... the ages of the kids can be expressed as x, x+4, and x+8.
For x greater than 3:
x+4 mod 3 = x+1 mod 3
X+8 mod 3 = x+2 mod 3
Clearly, it's impossible for x, x+1, and x+2 to all NOT be divisible by three... The only way that x, x+4, and x+8 can all be prime is when x=3, which is kinda the "trivial" case.
There's no way to avoid hitting a multiple of three somewhere along the way.
Parent
Re:Pay attention... (Score:5, Informative)
I had 5 computers when I was married and my kids lived with me. I had 3- one running linux, one running BSD, one dual booting windows and linux (or BeOS and linux, or solaris and windows). Another for my ex, and one for the kids. Low end pentiums (150mhz for 3 of them). I thought of putting my kids on linux, as I wanted them to learn how to get into linux like I had. Learn to not use windows, and really understand computers. Mind you, my oldest is almost 10 now. I wasn't concerned with 'computer shock' as they used Macs at school.
It didn't work out at all. They liked a few of the games, but they couldn't play the cdrom games (wine was no help) and even with Konqueror (on a P150? please) shockwave and flash were not very good.
So I threw windows back on. Sure, they trashed that box many times. I had to threaten them with no computer if I saw system files on the desktop again (I had no idea how they found them, or put them there). Or missing system files that caused windows to, oh, stop booting and all. (4 girls, all very computer curious. Even the youngest is click happy when no one is looking).
But, they learned the limitations of windows (while they were with me) and now when they come to visit, they treat the computer with more manners, and visit only known sites. Sorry, Linux wasn't and isn't ready for them.
Parent