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Red Hat Explains Stance on KDE/Gnome Desktop Changes
Posted by
Hemos
on Mon Sep 16, 2002 08:34 AM
from the creating-unity dept.
from the creating-unity dept.
An anonymous reader writes "A lot of people are angry over the changes RedHat has done to KDE and Gnome in their latest beta, code-named Null. They have basically "nullified" all the default themes and settings with which each desktop attempts to posture for more users. Instead, there is now a beautiful unified look. To explain RedHat's stance, Owen Taylor writes this piece here. I hope that RedHat successfully forces both Gnome and KDE to become compatible with one another which would result in the creation of a single desktop. This would be the greatest gift to the Linux world."
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Why do we need "one unified" desktop? (Score:4, Informative)
I think the different desktop environments are important the way it's important to have variation in the gene pool.
We can only attain perfection through variety.
Re:Why do we need "one unified" desktop? (Score:4, Insightful)
You like the variety. I like the variety, likely most of the Linux users on
Parent
Re:Why do we need "one unified" desktop? (Score:5, Insightful)
-jj-
Parent
Unified Desktop (Score:5, Insightful)
#the only look you need _ (Score:3, Funny)
$bash>
;
c:\>
nothing else necessary
Re:Unified Desktop (Score:3, Insightful)
I can recognise Windows by the fact that it is bland and ugly. I can recognise a GNU/Linux or FreeBSD desktop no matter what window manager is being used; I'd used just about all of 'em. Let Red Hat do what it wants with its distro; if you don't like what they do, then switch to Gentoo [gentoo.org] or FreeBSD [freebsd.org]. Red Hat is not Burger King, and "Have it your way" isn't one of Red Hat's slogans. So if you want Linux made your way, make it yourself.
Re:Unified Desktop (Score:4, Insightful)
No, this is not what we need. Just like we don't need a "unified" CPU-maker and a "unified" PC-vendor we don't need a "unified" Linux distribution.
If we would need that, we would all run Macs now.
DOS/Windows is so entrenched because:
RedHat having their great "unified" desktop won't make Photoshop run on it, it won't void the contracts OEM have with Microsoft and it won't make people forget about Windows.
However, both KDE and GNOME are usable enough and similar enough so that a Widnows user will have no problem using it (especially if you choose the Windows-config on your first login in KDE.) so that is already solved.
What we still need is:
I'm putting big hope in Codeweavers to produce a usable Wine that is easy to install and works with most office-software. - On all distributions, not only on RedHat.
and not distributors playing monopoly-unification games and reducing inter-distribution interoperability.
Parent
Re:Unified Desktop (Score:5, Interesting)
In contrast to what you say above, I do think that a unified face will allow more software to be ported to Linux. As companies see that the market is maturing, they will be more likely to take the jump to a linux version because there is less risk to there bottom line. You have a chicken and egg fiasco, which will come first, products or customers? I definately feel that this more identifiable "version" of RedHat Linux will go far is helping the cause. Consumers will now be able to focus on making linux work for them, instead of making Linux work.
Parent
Re:Unified Desktop (Score:5, Interesting)
Oh, not another one explaining the success of Microsoft. Face it: Microsoft is successful because IBM gave them the OS-monopoly in 1981. Everybody would have been successful with that, even Microsoft which never really did anything other than following the market. Microsoft has delayed the wide adoption of a GUI (every other major platform had a GUI long before 1990, but Windows 3.1 was the first usable GUI for DOS and came in 1993), they delayed the wide adoption of the Internet (In the early 90's Bill Gates himlelf said that "Internet will never be popular" and "The Internet? We are not interested in it") and PDAs (Go! invented the first PDA, Microsoft killed them with a lot of FUD and PenWindows which came out 2 years afterwards - which was dropped after Go! went bankrupt. Great, eh? PenWindows only use was to kill a company, advancing technology was not really important for MS)
So please stop telling me Microsoft's great secret of success. In real life, Microsoft is one of the most chaotic and incompetent companies.
Microsoft's only interest is maintaining the status-quo. The only reason we have Windows now is because everybody else already had a GUI for years and Microsoft had to follow.
In all new markets like Webservers for example, Linux is doing great - better than Windows. In all old markets where people have tons of programs and documents to lose, Linux doing not so good.
We need backwards-compatibility or WINE. Everything else is already there.
In contrast to what you say above, I do think that a unified face will allow more software to be ported to Linux. As companies see that the market is maturing, they will be more likely to take the jump to a linux version because there is less risk to there bottom line. You have a chicken and egg fiasco, which will come first, products or customers?
Customers.
I definately feel that this more identifiable "version" of RedHat Linux will go far is helping the cause. Consumers will now be able to focus on making linux work for them, instead of making Linux work.
Nonsense.
Currently Joe installs Linux and either stays with it because he likes it better or drops it because doesn't run.
How will that change? RedHat's GUI will be as new as stock-KDE for Joe (only uglier), so why should Joe be more likely to keep using it?
RedHat won't enable Linux on the masses' desktops. Codeweavers will.
Parent
Re:Unified Desktop (Score:4, Insightful)
And I say again, that's nonsense.
BeOS had a nice desktop. Where is it? It's gone because it doesn't has any apps.
Windows succeeded because it was backwards-compatible. The PC was plagued by IRQ and DMA conflicts and still took away marketshare from Macs and Amiga.
Linux needs to become backwards-compatible to Windows and needs to run Win32 applications.
That's what is holding it back.
In all areas where the apps are available, Linux is doing fine
Examples? Webservers - Windows gets marginalized there. Professional 3D-animation: Just after the tools were ported, many movie studios moved right to Linux. Embedded systems: Except for PDA's which are ruled by Palm and WinCE (and now guess why? RIGHT! Because of the APPS!!!) Linux has become the standard.
Software will be ported to Linux when the users are there. C++ and Delphi apps will be ported to KDE and C-apps will be ported to GNOME. Period. All apps work on all desktops, no problem in sight. End of story.
People want applications.
Nobody will give a shit wether an application runs on Qt, GTK or Wine. It doesn't matter as long as the functionality is there.
Parent
How dare they ? (Score:5, Funny)
What a horrible idea, leveling the playing field and have a standard theme that concentrates on usability and then a pure battle of abilities to determine who underpins it. If there can be no differentation in terms of buttons and icons then how would people judge if not by "see-through windows" v "tear-off tabs" and other such pointless arguments and wars.
Terrible concept, concetrate a team on a decent standard theme, and then have competition for the best engine behind it....
Umm wait, isn't this in effect the same as the Video card market where standards have led to the engines (the cards) being bought and swapped purely on the grounds of ability, sure each has "special" instructions, but for 99% of applications no one cares.
Oh and isn't it the same as the PC market, one instruction set, AMD v Intel.
Oh I see, thats what they want, what a great idea now I understand.
This is a Good Thing (Score:4, Insightful)
This is RedHat's way of making Linux more appealing to the end user. Good for them.
If you don't like it, do what I do and run Slackware (or other distro of choice), but bravo for the RedHat folks. This is a positive step.
Re:This is a Good Thing (Score:5, Insightful)
Indeed, because if the desktop is more appealing then more people will use it and if more people use it then companies will start to consider it a viable market for software (applications and drivers) and when there is greater support for Linux then more people will move to it because it has the applications they want and so on and so on ...
Microsoft are already doing Linux a favour with their licence changes, but that doesn't mean that we should expect people that are brave enough to change to come to the Linux side (at the moment, I'd say they're more likely to go to Apple, as they have consistency and ease of use down to a tee)
Parent
Re:This is a Good Thing (Score:3, Interesting)
I'm a KDE user myself, and I think the KDE folks will also come to the conclusion that RH isn't doing anything nasty when they think more about it.
However, I do not agree that Linux needs a Single Unified Desktop. On the contrary, the competition now is good. It allows more room to experiment, it allows for different developers to have different priorities.
And it allows vendors to choose the best parts from each project to provide a unified desktop in their product. Or, leave the choice to their customers if customers want choice.
Re:This is a Good Thing, but remember ... (Score:5, Interesting)
So it's kind of hmmm strange, that nowadays Redhat tries to nullify the difference between KDE and Gnome.
But let me state it again: I think, we don't need two desktops. So every move to make those beast more similar is welcomed.
Bye egghat.
Parent
It's About Time (Score:4, Insightful)
Two thumbs up for Red Hat. (Score:5, Interesting)
But if Linux is *ever* to succeeed in the desktop market, it NEEDS this. IT depts. in a large company will not tolerate one product behaving different ways... imagine Bob leaning over his cubicle wall to ask Sally how to check a new email account... something that happens all the time in the real world, and Sally can't answer, because while she's good with her KDE environment, she can;t help Bob out because he got set up with GNOME.
The desktop HAS to be standardized if it going to be used in the work place. Period.
If you don't like Red Hat's "removal of choice", here's a tip: Use a different distribution, or make your own. That sure sounds like choice to me!
Re:Two thumbs up for Red Hat. (Score:5, Insightful)
Here we have a situation where an organization takes a free software package and makes modifications to it in order to suit its needs, and then rereleases the modified package also under the GPL. What could be MORE complaint with the spirit of the GPL and free software as a whole???
Parent
Re:Two thumbs up for Red Hat. (Score:5, Informative)
- Some KDE-folks (probably not core people, I'm not sure) went off half-cocked whining about Red Hat having "removed" functionality from KDE (e.g. not installing Konq). This was untrue, but see below...
- Other KDE people with more level heads complained that major KDE apps in the default menus had been replaced with generic sounding terms (e.g. Web Browser) that then ran non-KDE apps (e.g. Mozilla instead of Konq). This is good from the unifying-the-desktop perspective, but it makes KDE perform terribly (since apps like evolution and Mozilla require totally different huge shared libraries to be loaded in addition to the huge share libraries of KDE). So, the complaint here is that KDE on Red Hat (null) was a pig because of the new default menu settings. You could still run all of your favorite KDE apps, they just weren't in the default menus.
- Yet further controversy came from both the Gnome and KDE camps. This was centered around the "hijacking" of the default theme. This, IMHO is ignorable. If you don't like the default Red Hat theme, load another one (by theme here, I mean everything from tagets in menus to look-and-feel). If Gnome wants to release their own "gnome-default-theme" RPM for Red Hat 8.0 when it comes out, more power to them! KDE can do the same. Heck, Ximian already does this, along with a much nicer, more up-to-date Gnome desktop + a recent evolution.
So, a lot of it is a non-issue, but I think the core item of making KDE less efficient by defaulting to Gnome and/or Gtk apps is worth some discussion. In the end, I think the way Red Hat did it makes sense, but only until KDE has apps that are comparable to Mozilla and evolution for the business dekstop (Konq is nice, but more of a Galeon-like browser, not the all-around contender than Mozilla is).Parent
Re:Two thumbs up for Red Hat. (Score:5, Insightful)
So you would rather have the local IT managment make the choice for the user than have Red Hat make changes so that the distinction isn't important? I don't really see how this is "choice".
As for masking the differences between Gnome and
KDE to the end customer - that is the same as doing
it the MS way or hit the highway. No thanks!
That is absurd to say about any GPL application. If you don't like Red Hat's choices, then you are free to change them at multiple levels including changing the source code on your local machine. Why you think that it's OK for KDE or Gnome to make choices for look and feel, but not OK for RedHat is completely incomprehensible.
Parent
A quick google search... (Score:5, Informative)
--Jon
Choice is the key (Score:4, Insightful)
Who exactly (Score:3, Funny)
KDE & Gnome desiring MS control? (Score:5, Insightful)
MS complains (and forces them to comply, which doesn't apply here).
So Red Hat wants a unified look (who cares what they want, it's their distribution), but KDE and Gnome want to dictate how their software looks on someone else's machine? I don't think so! If they don't like it then they got into the wrong business.
I can't wait for someone to say, "But Red Hat isn't giving their customers a choice and linux is about choice...". That comment is ludicrous on multiple levels, given the dozens of other distributions which deliver a plain vanilla KDE/Gnome.
The linux community is a quirky bunch. Saying, "We want choice." was great until they started tacking on "Unless it's our software your changing, in that case you should choose the way we want you to choose." Desiring a distribution to change based on your opinion is no different or appalling than desiring a user to change based on your opinion. You are still assuming that the user is stupid and can't be trusted to choose their own way in the face of a default installation.
I can see the flames now...
-Adam
Re:KDE & Gnome desiring MS control? (Score:5, Insightful)
If the changes made were only cosmetic and easily overcome through a theme or widget change, then your argument would be complete. Unfortunately, some of the changes go beyond the cosmetic and do force users into a "Redhat flavored KDE" as opposed to the KDE on which the KDE developers have invested so much time and energy.
Still, the GPL allows for just the kind of modifications Red Hat is executing. You can't have it both ways, either your software is open or it isn't. You may not like the changes someone is making but the license you've chosen gives them the right to do it. Ultimately if the changes Red Hat is making are detrimental to KDE, in the sense that they provide a worse environment, it should cause users to move to a different distribution. Ultimately we all vote with our feet and our wallets.
Parent
Re:KDE & Gnome desiring MS control? (Score:5, Interesting)
(Of course, it's BSD for me all the way.)
Parent
Re:KDE & Gnome desiring MS control? (Score:3, Insightful)
Maybe the KDE people are just pissed because RH employs 3 Gnome developers and no KDE'ers. Really, they ought to be pleased - at least RH is promoting their window manager, which will raise KDE's profile another notch.
I think when all the dust settles, this will end up being seen as a Good Thing. And besides, if Red Hat takes on more of an active role in providing compatibility between KDE and Gnome, this should benefit the whole community.
Hopefully this won't be necessary soon (Score:5, Interesting)
Note: they have not taken away any user choices. You can still completely change your KDE/GNOME appearance, perhaps even back to the KDE/GNOME defaults. The only things that might bug users are the changes they've made to the code, but we don't yet know what they are, or how significant they are, so we'll have to wait and see.
I for one would welcome it. I'd change my themes straight away, because I've spent far too much boredom-time making my KDE3 desktop look exactly how I want it. But I also had to spend quite a while getting GNOME and GTK+ apps to look right so they almost blend in with my KDE3 apps and desktop.
The final goal here is of course compatability in themes. I.e. you download and install a KDE theme, and you can then make your GTK apps look identical, either with the same theme, or a mirror package. It's something even RMS has proposed, and something that will make life a lot more pleasant for those aesthetic pedants like myself, without taking away any of the choice we have in desktops and looks. Hopefully RedHat will find a constructive way of using these code modifications to help the KDE & GNOME projects achieve this "integration".
Pictures of their desktop (Score:3, Interesting)
I have to say, it does look very nice and I (being in the "lets have one desktop and do it right for the sake of consistency and adoption" camp) will definately be installing it when it is released.
Have your cake and eat it too? (Score:5, Insightful)
The real reason everyone likes to have multiple desktop environments is for choice. The choice to develop applications with the toolkit of your choice. This is great because, as everyone loves to say around here, "this is what makes Linux great, choice and freedom."
But as with all choices to diverge, rather than unify, someone suffers. Up unitl now that has been the end user -- the person all this software was written for in the first place, or is it? KDE and Gnome are great, but they offer two different window kits, two different looks and feels, and two different user experiences. This is bad for the end user. If I am KDE die hard and want to use a Gnome application, I can, the only problem is that it's going to look and feel like a Gnome app on my KDE desktop. And if I was a Gnome user the above situation would be reversed, you get the idea.
The point here is that Red Hat has done a great service to the KDE and Gnome teams. They have taken two incompatible, entirely different desktops, and unified them for the benefit of the end user.
Let's not forget that Linux is about freedom not only for the developer, but for the end user. Well written applications are designed with the user in mind. If the KDE and Gnome teams want to contribute to the Linux/*nix community in a truly free and open maner, they will see this move for what it is: a change to allow developers to continue to innovate in the way they see fit, using the right tools for the job at hand, all while improving user experience. That's what it's all about. Right?
Choice and Red Hat (Score:5, Insightful)
11 comments, and most of them are people grumbling about how Red Hat is squeezing choice out of the hands of the user. But really, is this true? What RH has done (from what I hear, I don't chase bleeding-edge distros, usually) is just change the way things look. They've provided a different default appearance. How is this worse from the default appearances provided by the GNOME and KDE teams? (RH's arguments for why it's better are in the article, you should read it :3 )
It's not like Red Hat is releasing modified versions of GNOME and KDE that don't let you customize the appearance; then, only then, would the complaints about choice be founded. The people who really care about the difference between GNOME and KDE probably do so on reasons deeper than 'the default theme looks cool'. (Personally, I don't really like either of the default appearances that much ^^; ) So, when nagora asks "If RH doesn't like this, why don't they drop the one they don't want people to use?" the answer is: they don't care what you use, but they want the defaults to look reasonably similar, because they know that people who really don't *want* their default theme either know how to change it or probably have settings that they'll import anyway.
Remember who Red Hat's intended market share is: the corporate environment. A lot of people I've talked to recently agree that RH's biggest 'ins' are (or should be) for office workstations. Lots of places implement a baseline standard that they want to look the same, but that people can customize if they want to (as long as they don't spend hours tweaking it). This is the mentality that RH seems to target. Yes, this isn't for everyone, but that's the point ... there are plenty [debian.org] of [gentoo.org] good [suse.de] distributions out there, and many [freebsd.org] more [openbeos.org] choices [apple.com] out there if you really really don't like it. But no-one said you have to use Red Hat. (Although I could understand concerns about RH-isms creeping into LSB, but nobody's brought that up.)
Remember, RH == vendor for corporate enviroments. Corporate environments like standard desktops, so this move makes sense in Red Hat's perspective.
This will drive many people insane... (Score:5, Insightful)
Which is not the case with current Gnome and KDE. And probably never will be.
I have different desktop themes and backgrounds at work and at home for a reason. My mind and my fingers automatically switch passwords and procedures, because without conscious effort I recognize the different environment and switch to different trained behaviour. Also, the few Gnome programs I am using look decidedly different than the KDE stuff I am using, and this helps a lot. Looking different, I do not expect the Gnome stuff to operate like the KDE grouping around it, and automatically treat it differently.
Kristian
Two points missed-- (Score:5, Informative)
There are two points Owen didn't strike home with a sledgehammer, so I'll say them:
First, those users who already know they PREFER the "old look" of KDE or GNOME can configure their new Red Hat Linux 8.0/Null++ to regain that old look. The Red Hat "Bluecurve" work is almost entirely artwork and menu organization, both of which can be re-themed or re-edited by any user who wants to. This change is to remove a bewildering either-or choice that paralyzes many newcomers.
Second, Owen didn't mention that a huge area that BOTH desktops need to strive to improve is accessibility. It's vitally important for Linux to make inroads into the highly regulated Government sector. GNOME2 is laying groundwork for major gains in accessibility, thanks to partnering research by folks at Sun and other places. KDE needs to work hard on being accessible too. Features like Sticky Keys are just a start. Supporting limited-vision users and other areas is a must. Both desktops should do what they can, so that the best approaches can be adopted as standards.
Re:Two points missed-- (Score:4, Interesting)
Braille is useful to the few people who have learned it. I know some blind computer users who use braille.
Braille is NOT useful to the huge numbers of people who have not learned it. This includes those with limited vision, those who have limited sense of touch also, and those who became sight-impaired late enough in life that learning Braille is not a viable option.
I wrote a nice utility for Windows called Dragnifier. It's donate-ware. It is a taskbar applet that can be attached to any hotkey, and will show a magnifying glass that moves with the mouse. It magnifies whatever is below the lens as the user drags the mouse. Quick, convenient, natural to the user. Easier than a lot of other magnification options out there, from the letters I get. I wrote it because I like to see pixels when doing detailed artwork. I was flooded with positive response from the limited-sight communities. There's a lot of senior users out there who don't see very well.
I'd love to make Dragnifier for X Windows and Gtk2. As I learn more of the X API, I'm sure I'll develop it.
Audible monitors (text-to-speech) need to be integrated into the standard application toolkits in such a way as to have almost zero burden on application authors.
Tactile and audible mice are still being developed and experiments show there are some cool things to be done with them.
Lack of eyesight doesn't equate to lack of visualization. To limit the blind solely to Braille and Speech is to isolate them from the rest of the society which advances into new visualization methods every year. Think creatively about "visualizing" existing applications in new ways.
Parent
Squish the fruit slowpoke Ed boy. (Score:4, Insightful)
There's also the important fact that GNOME and KDE are open source. I can fork both projects right now and do what I want with them. Anyone can which is the nature of the GPL. Whining because someone took your code and extended it makes the concept of open source seem a bit retarded doesn't it. People want source code for everything and it all ought to be open and free but as soon as someone changes something all hell and whining breaks loose. Red hat could have tried to contribute their changes back into both respective code trees but why should they wait? Should everyone stick with inferior kernel VM systems until they are officially included in the release tree? Come on.
Sounds like they're trying to give KDE a fair shot (Score:5, Insightful)
I get the distinct impression that the Red Hat team is trying hard to not push their biases onto their users. It's fairly clear the Red Hat's developers are more adept with Gtk+/Gnome than Qt/KDE, and there's nothing wrong with that - if they were better at Qt, we'd still be having this discussion.
When you realize you have a bias towards one group, you have two options - defend your bias and try to convince others, or work extra-hard to give the other team a fair chance. I think Red Hat is trying to give KDE a fair chance because the whole idea of Linux is to give users the right to choose.
Maybe I was just sucked in to Red Hat's PR speech, but I really have to agree with their philosophy of providing a nearly identical UI on both WM's. It prevents novices from choosing one over the other just because of configuration differences such as single- vs. double-clicking icons. It annoys me to no end when a user tells me he/she didn't like product A because of a default setting that happened to be set differently in product B. In doing this, Red Hat may have made KDE "act like" Gnome, but I believe that it is inadvertant, just because the Red Hat team has gotten used to settings more typical to Gnome.
Having said all that, though, think about this: If you know the difference, you can change it. If some guy who knows nothing about Linux doesn't know the difference, will he care?
The Real Power of Open Source (Score:4, Insightful)
The real power of Open Source is NOT:
- A variety of applications
- Multiple configurations
- Configurable kernels
- Source code available
- Community of users
The real power of Open Source is that, despite whatever the default configuration of a system might be, you can customize it any way you want!I really don't care if the standard Linux desktop starts to look and act like Windows in default configurations. In fact, I encourage it. It's the only way Linux will go corporate, companies will start making software for it, and support for things like hardware and drivers will finally become what they need to be.
As long as it retains the ability to be as configurable and adjustable as it is right now, I'm a happy man. So what if your kernel comes configured generically for every piece of hardware in the world? If you have the know-how, configure it yourself. Recompile the software, the applications, the windowing system...write your own drivers, apps, utilities. Colorize your bash prompt. Interface with the toaster.
Remember: With Linux there is Choice. Microsoft never even bothered to give you one. Keep that philosophy in mind and we'll be all good.
Lack of Unification Killed My Linux Desktop (Score:5, Insightful)
When actually trying to get work done, and not simply tinker around, having essentially three different widget sets and standards is a nightmare. I wasn't even using GNOME or KDE as a desktop; I used fluxbox. But some of my GNOME apps looked one way, the 2.x ones looked another, and the KDE apps yet another. Then comes trying to remember the keyboard shortcut conventions: do I shut this down with ctl-Q, ctl-x, alt-q, alt-x? On top of all this, there's the bloat of carrying around libraries for all three widget sets, and all their dependencies (and I still had a pretty stripped down install; I was running Gentoo).
Day-to-day, this made for a truly unpleasant, unproductive, and frustrating desktop experience, without even getting into issues of stability. Many will toot the horn of diversity and choice, but in this the GNOME/KDE split is simply a massive hassle for new and experienced users alike. I'm the secretary for my college's Linux User Group, and explaining the differences between all the desktop environments confuses new users into a catatonic state, leaving them so confused they don't know where to go for what.
I won't say that Linux can never succeed on the desktop. It just needs a shitload of work, and and the demolition of this KDE/GNOME barrier.
Re:Lack of Unification Killed My Linux Desktop (Score:4, Insightful)
Ok, die-hard linux user....
But the split between GNOME and KDE, and therein between GNOME 1.x and 2.x, prompted me to drop Linux as a desktop platform
Not!
This inflamatory message (yes, mod me down, yadda, yadda) is let you know that your seld description is far from "die-hard linux user". Sorry, you're just not. It matters not that you're a secretary of your local LUG.
Among the many things that come to mind associated with a "die-hard linux user" are:
Not all of these apply to all die-hard linux users, but there is a general trend here.
Above all that, anyone who could reasonably be considered a "die-hard linux user" appreciates that the linux desktops and particularly their applications are still in their formative stages. Whereas a consumer-oriented individual looks upon bugs and deficiencies and decides to switch to a mature and polished commercial project, the "die-hard linux user" appreciates the tremendous project and even in the absence of activly contributing (even in small ways like timely bug reports on the unstable bleeding edge), at least feels a sense of "being there" as it happens.
So the point of this little rant, is that "Lack of Unification" didn't kill your linux desktop. You killed your linux desktop when you deleted it. That's your choice to make... my only gripe involves you calling yourself a "die-hard linux user". It didn't all look the same, nice and pretty, and parts of it didn't work similarly to other parts, so you dropped it and went to the highly polished, but commercial closed-source MacOS-X desktop. How "die-hard" is that??
Parent
Why KDE people might not like this (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Why KDE people might not like this (Score:4, Interesting)
Basically it is obvious that the RedHat guys have made these changes without actually understanding what they were doing. Personally, I will be dropping any bugs reported by RH users as I won't be able to test them properly.
Rich.
Parent
Re:Insane (Score:3, Insightful)
If you have to support a product, standard look-and-feel is a good thing for you. If you allow advanced users to change whatever they want, good for us.
Where is the problem?
Re:Insane (Score:5, Insightful)
I think you're missing the point here. The idea is to unify a desktop solution so that people who are familiar with MS (read: most of the world) are not terrified of trying to configure a Linux box. I don't see this as MS-like. I see this as a step in advancing Linux as a desktop solution.
The whole point of having KDE/GNOME/WindoMaker/Et al is to allow people to pick the one that suits them.
Very true. If the experts who are used to Linux want it, they should still be available 'untouched' for them to install and configure. But let's face a fact here: RedHat is becoming the easiet of the distros to install and configure; making the setup and configuration less daunting for newcomers is a step in the right direction.
If RH don't like this then why don't they just drop the one(s) they don't want people to use?
Don't you think that this is more MS-like than trying to unify their desktop components? To just drop packages they don't like would be a true method of negating choice. THAT would be a step in the wrong direction.
Parent
Re:Insane (Score:5, Insightful)
Look, RedHat is right on this one. Finally, after years of frustration, someone might just drag linux kicking and screaming into the desktop market.
I swear, linux does not want to be mainstream. Sure, everyone talks about how they want their favorite OS to be taken seriously on the desktop, but no one wants to take the steps necessary to do it. I like choice, don't get me wrong. But most users do not give a shit about choice. They want AOL and MS Word. They want the start button. Fine, give them the start button, give them an MS Word clone. Let the world view linux with this perspective: a solid OS that 'just works' with a standard interface and standard applications that work as well as those on Windows. And for those who want to do more, we have other "versions" of the OS that allow other desktops, applications and such.
To sit here and rip them for 'taking away choice' is just ignorant and, well, stupid. Please, people. I like WindowMaker, but I also know what we need to make linux work outside of the server room and the geek's bedroom. Don't forget, programs like 'switchdesk' exist for a reason. Those who want to use it, and those who can use it, are not prohibited from it.
Bravo RedHat. Lead linux into battle for the server and desktop. Let everyone else follow. I need to get back to my kernel compile, now.
Parent
Re:Insane (Score:4, Insightful)
The whole point of having different linux distos is to allow people to pick the one that suits them.
Don't like what RH is doing? Pick a different distro. Don't like what any of them are doing
Parent
Re:Insane (Score:3, Insightful)
Story is bogus (Score:5, Informative)
Where did he manage to get this idea caught in his head? Merging the desktops? RH is just trying to make the two interoperate as best they can in their own release from a UI standpoint.
If RH don't like this then why don't they just drop the one(s) they don't want people to use?
You still *can* pick KDE/GNOME/whatever. RH chose a *theme* that makes them look alike. A *theme*! God, where did everyone lose sight of that? Ximian chooses a different theme than the GNOME default as well...are *they* evil, sadistic bastards too?
I still can't figure out why this is news. It wasn't back when the story was first posted, and nobody cared except for about four people on the KDE forums (mostly the ever-vocal Mosfet).
My guess is that publicizing this is a UnitedLinux initiative to make RH look bad, since I can't figure out a single other person who has anything else to gain by blowing this as out of proportion as it's gotten. Who *cares* about RH's default theme? Change your theme! Use WindowMaker if you want! This has no impact whatsoever on you!
Parent
Re:Insane (Score:3)
Here's a bad computer-car analogy. If the Microsoft car has a steering wheel, and the Linux car has a numeric keypad (which undoubtably can do more), most people couldn't drive the Linux car.
RedHat is trying to push the Desktop Linux by making different GUIs work the same. This is known as "standards."
The real issue here is while there was a display manager that became the standard, these should have been something on interface design long ago.
We live in a world of standards, and yet the one thing that needs the most standardization is the one thing people push to have the least.
Free the GUI!
Re:screens pls! (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
Re:Greatest gift to the linux world???? (Score:3, Insightful)
If you look like Microsoft and Apple, they tie the user experience to the choice of OS. That Linux allows us to choose, is exactly what makes Free Software good. If you don't agree with RedHat, at least learn to respect that their decisions. They have been contributing code, and good software so far. At least LET them exercise their freedom to please their customers.