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Mandrake Clarifies its Future

Posted by CmdrTaco on Mon Apr 08, 2002 12:30 PM
from the isn't-that-geoffs-distro? dept.
fabiolrs writes "Mandrake Linux has an article in response to the message they sent on march 11th. They claim that because of user help they are "cash-flow positive"! That is great news since Linux community is now sure it will continue using one of the nicest distros available!"
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  • Awesome (Score:2, Informative)

    by mckeowbc (513776)
    I love Mandrake. It's ease of use, and painless install are the only reasons that I have been able to convert my girlfriend, her roomate, and one of her college suitemates to Linux. It's config tools are nice and easy to understand. And it comes bundled with software that people actually want. It was also my first distro. But now I'm on to Debian. Ahh...memories. Long live Drake!
  • by fruey (563914) on Monday April 08 2002, @12:36PM (#3303936) Homepage Journal
    ...does not mean profitable.

    Great news anyway though, true Linux hackers may never install Mandrake, they'll have their own build. But a friendly install, etc (Mandrake is good on this point) has to cost time and effort from hackers who would perhaps rather be doing something else.

    Still, I won't be in Mandrake club :)

    • Still, I won't be in Mandrake club :)

      Also how long will people remain club members?
      What happens when the novelty wears off?
      • As someone who is "subscribed" to another "club"(www.transgaming.com [transgaming.com]) of the same sort - I can say that as long as positive
        things are happening and progress is being made people will continue to pay.

        Over at Transgaming over the past month there has been a lot of grumbling (read as people saying they are going to unsubscribe) because everyone wants release 2.0 - So the developers had to put a little more time into quieting the masses by giving regular reports about what is being worked on (I use the term "regular" loosely as TG still doesn't have this totally under control). And because of this almost all of the original subscribers are still there - because there is a feeling of progress.

        If Mandrake ever ceases to progress - that is the point where people will begin jumping ship. Up until that point I am sure that the club members will feel as if their money is well spent.

        Derek
        • by bhsx (458600)
          From Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913) :

          Mandrake \Man"drake\, n. [AS. mandragora, L. mandragoras, fr.
          Gr. ?: cf. F. mandragore.]
          1. (Bot.) A low plant ({Mandragora officinarum) of the
          Nightshade family, having a fleshy root, often forked, and
          supposed to resemble a man. It was therefore supposed to
          have animal life, and to cry out when pulled up. All parts
          of the plant are strongly narcotic. It is found in the
          Mediterranean region.

          And shrieks like mandrakes, torn out of the earth,
          That living mortals, hearing them, run mad. --Shak.

          Note: The mandrake of Scripture was perhaps the same plant,
          but proof is wanting.

          I like the 'often forked' line, as I'm planning my own. [dynu.com]
  • Right Here [slashdot.org] I was wondering why that didn't make the Front Page

  • Cashflow (Score:3, Insightful)

    by iceT (68610) on Monday April 08 2002, @12:39PM (#3303957)
    So, I wonder what they will do to make sure that they are 'cash-flow positive' from now on? Or will the always be relying on 'user contributions'?

    Personally, I'd rather give money to RedHat (or maybe SuSe). They seem to be working hard to get Linux accepted in business. Mandrake is very desktop focused, and that is probably the weakest area to forge a business model.. (IMHO)

    • Re:Cashflow (Score:5, Interesting)

      by joestar (225875) on Monday April 08 2002, @12:45PM (#3304007) Homepage
      I totally disagree with you! :-) In my IT environment I can see more and more companies using Mandrake. You know, Windows 2000 is very focused on the desktop, but companies use it as a server ;-) This is the advantage of Mandrake: it's solid and reliable, which is needed for servers use, and it's very friendly as well, which is needed for a large adoption. I think you should have a look at Mandrake Business Cases [mandrakebizcases.com] to see how much Mandrake is used in the industry.
    • Personally, I'd rather give money to RedHat (or maybe SuSe). They seem to be working hard to get Linux accepted in business. Mandrake is very desktop focused, and that is probably the weakest area to forge a business model.. (IMHO)

      I think it's EXTREMELY import for the future of desktop computing to have a strong desktop/workstation Linux distro. If for nothing else, this should provide the average desktop user with an actual choice over Windows. I haven't tried SuSE, but Mandrake seems to be the most user-friendly Linux distro that actually has a chance of gaining converts from Windows who are just normal desktop users. Without Mandrake, I think the rate of new Linux Windows converts would drop by almost a half.

      Also, there are many businesses that need a good client-side development platform. For instance, Microcell, a Montreal-based cellular service provider, has Mandrake installed on all its development machines, especially for its Java developers. Any business that wants to develop software in a cross-platform environment would find such a distro to be extremely useful.

      I, for one, prefer to develop in Linux, because of the rich command-line tools and environment, as well as the greater control over configuration files and settings. Windows is a poor platform for doing any command-line processing, even with cygwin. However, I also need a rich, user-friendly desktop environment with GUI configuration tools, should I require them. Mandrake, despite being somewhat bloated, comes with all these tools pre-configured and ready-to-use right out of the box. AFAIK, RedHat and other distros require quite a bit of initial configuration to get everything running just right.

      I actually use Slackware at home, but that's because I can afford to play around with it. When I'm developing at work, I need something that will pretty much run out of the box, without being Windows. Mandrake is the distro I would use at work, were I not in a M$ environment (SourceSafe, Exchange Email Server, MCSE Network Admin) like I am now.
  • While I think the whole business about the 'Star Office-for-silver-members' was a complete FUBAR on MandrakeSoft's part, it looks like raising revenue by offering membership in the Mandrake Club could actually work for them. Many OSS companies have gone down the tubes by basing their business model on selling services and tech support. If Mandrake doesn't make it, another user-friendly GNU/Linux distro will take up the slack.
  • by Qwerpafw (315600) on Monday April 08 2002, @12:41PM (#3303969) Homepage
    I am glad for mandrake, and quite amazed at the amount of kindness shown by people online... (i.e. sending in money)

    However, it is somewhat disheartening that their software has to be supported by donations. Sympathetic users just don't make a good substitute for a sound business plan.

    Anyways, I hope they keep up the good work. (and maybe develop a better way to make $$) They're not my distro of choice, but they are quite good.
    • Why don't they just become a nonprofit, public benefit corporation? I presume there is an equivalent to 501(c)3 over there in France, and then users could contribute in good conscience (why give money to a for-profit company?!).
      • I do not think they have that option. In any case the rules are different in France, it is much harder for a non-profit to be able to receive before-tax donations. You really have to be out to cure cancer or something similar (as this is /. maybe I should specify that some-unnamed-monopolistic-company-from-redmont is not considered cancer here ;--). So it makes sense for them to be a corporation, at least companies can expense the club membership/donation.


    • by MCZapf (218870) on Monday April 08 2002, @02:03PM (#3304518)
      ... sound business plan.

      A lot of people keep saying this, but what on Earth does that mean? It seems to me that people just want Mandrake to conjure up something (boxed sets, support, etc.) and slap a price tag on it. I don't think this is necessarily any better than getting "donations" from users, other than the fact that businesses prefer fixed payments up front.

      The word "donations" is misleading anyway. I'll bet most people who send money to Mandrake are themselves Mandrake users, who consider the money not a donation, but a form of belated payment. I myself use Mandrake Linux, and am considering joining the Mandrake Club (whatever it's called). I certainly don't mind paying. I was never under the illusion that Linux distributions are truely free (in that they require money and manpower to produce).

      In conclusion, I think getting donations (aka belated payments) from users is a perfectly fine survival plan. As for business plans, well, I don't know.

    • by Omnifarious (11933) on Monday April 08 2002, @02:19PM (#3304595) Homepage Journal

      I think you persist in willfully misunderstanding their business plan in the service of the "You can't make money selling Libre Software" meme.

      I use RedHat, and religiously buy a new box with every release so they get money and it stays on retail shelves. I know I don't _have_ to, but in my own cost/benefit analysis, the money I spend on their boxes is well worth it. I'm not making a 'donation', I'm consciously investing in my own future. I'm investing in the security updates I know I'll recieve. I'm investing in the next version that I know they are working on. RedHat has earned my trust in this regard, and I know that to continue to produce the things I need and/or treasure, they need my support.

      It's not free software, it's Libre software. It takes time, and effort to produce. The people who put in that time and effort need to eat as much as the rest of us. When people like you spread the 'donation' meme, you devalue their work and falsely give the impression that it's voluntary and a 'gift' when what it really is is an investment in the future of a product you use daily.

      • Investment (Score:3, Insightful)

        by WillWare (11935)
        in my own cost/benefit analysis, the money I spend on their boxes is well worth it. I'm not making a 'donation', I'm consciously investing in my own future.

        This is a very powerful idea, and really gets to the root of the gratis/libre distinction. People are often initially attracted to free software because they don't have to pay for it. But the real prize, the one your grandkids will thank you for, is the intellectual commons and the long-term effect it can have on the world.

        It's easy to forget this stuff when everybody is out of work . When everybody got regular paychecks it was no big deal to drop some bucks on somebody doing something interesting. But the screwed-up economy is just a circumstance, and a transient one at that. It doesn't really deserve the deciding vote about which human activities are most worthwhile.

        • When an investment house floats an IPO and gives the IPOing company millions of dollars, it's not called charity because they expect a direct return on their investment greater than the invested money. The same when I buy copies of RedHat or sign up for subscriptions. I'm investing in the future of the software I use. I expect greater returns in terms of usable software than the money I put in. If I didn't put this money in, I would not get the software I wanted because it would stop being made.

          It's not charity. Charity is an investment in the world around you that you expect no direct repayment for. You expect some sort of vague repayment in that if you make your society a better one somehow, you will reap those benefits too, but there's no way to determine an ROI in any reasonable sense.

          The money I give to RedHat has a direct ROI. I'm getting something measurable for my money. Sure, I _may_ get some of that value if I don't invest, but if nobody invested no value would be created, and I'd be much worse off than I was before.

  • by joestar (225875) on Monday April 08 2002, @12:41PM (#3303975) Homepage
    I see Mandrake/MandrakeSoft as today's real innovators in the Free Sofware world. First they totally changed the approach of Linux distributions makers by giving more importance to ease of use for instance. Secondly, they have a business approach which is *very* innovative. I can feel something about Mandrake, I don't know exactly what, which looks like the best approach around here to conciliate business and Free Software while always keeping 100% compatibility with Free Software.

    The Mandrake Club is a great way to monetize a user base as large as Mandrake users. It provides many advantages such as StarOffice 6.0 (final version!) which has not even been released just because Sun seemed to believe in this club and wanted to give it a boost... The Club is also a great "tool" for users to ensure that MandrakeSoft will keep on delivering great products such as the excellent Mandrake 8.2 (which I use mostly on servers, but which is so nice as well to replease Windows on my laptop!).

    Great project, great company - you've got my support guys!! :-)

    • I use Mandrake 8.2 at home now on a dual-boot, Linux/Win2k machine. I was incredibly impressed with the ease of installation and support for all of my hardware that came with this latest distribution from Mandrake. It was a big leap from 8.1. It is not 100% perfect, but then again, I have to download and configure drivers for Win2k also to get it working to its optimum level of performance too. I may be a Linux geek, but not by a whole lot. I certainly don't love the command line for a lot of things. I'm a visual person, and for me, the GUI is where it's at, but Mandrake has both worlds of Linux covered very well in my opinion.

      I've seen, and tried to install, other Linux distributions, but I keep coming back to Mandrake's product. Right now, if it weren't for all of the great games in Windows, I'd be using Linux exclusively at home. Mozilla runs great, XMMS is up to par, sound, networking, video, graphics - they all exist on Linux, and from my experience, when configured correctly, run twice as fast as the Windows bloatware. Even my "Word" documents saved in the OpenOffice 641 format are 2-5 times smaller in size than the actual MS Word format!

      You may ask, well what has it *actually* cost you to learn and run Linux? - Answer: A lot of time reading How-To's (which I love to do), a lot of time configuring the OS (which I love to do), and a cable broadband connection @ $44.95/mth (which I'd be using in Windows anyways). Free? Not exactly. Fun? For me, absolutely.

    • Where's the humor in this, oh crack smoking moderators with a +5 funny rating? This is serious. I use mdk8.2 on more than a few servers. From stability to security Mandrake has it down.

      Know any other desktop-friendly distros that don't want you to be root in a window manager or don't install telnet server by default because it's a security risk?
      • I think your question makes sense. However the Mandrake Club is about providing privileges to its users. The first "privilege" is to support Mandrake Free-Software developments, which has great consequences (the more you give the Mandrake Club, the more they can put ressources in development/QA/Free Software support such as KOffice, Linux kernel...). The second privilege is about software people use and are interested in, but which aren't available as Free-Software yet. I'm personally against proprietary software, but I've downloaded StarOffice 6.0 final from the Club, as well as Mozilla plugins packaged for Mandrake (Real player 8.0, Flash player...). In this sense, this is a privilege, because I would have passed time to find and download those pieces of software anyway. With the Club, I just downloaded them and now I'm using them. Other privileges include some interesting talks with MandrakeSoft founders and Mandrake developers. But other privileges are yet to come! The Club is very young and is growing depending on users needs/requets... It's a nice interface between us - the Mandrake users - and the Mandrake Linux project.

      • I beg to differ. Briefly. I have to go back to coding a Linux-based app that we sell for a price with a quite a few digits.

        Linux is actually a business success that is destined to advance. Amazon.com turned a loss into a profit by migrating to Linux, thus dodging license costs. Google runs on Linux. Various governments are looking into migrating onto Linux (their National Security advisors don't like to run software run by a company that got a settlement offer in such a weak case. Maybe there are paragraphs we don't know about?). IBM is embracing linux. Sun is recognizing Linux. Compaq & HP are dealing with Linux. Why? Because it is cost effective, and destined to become even more cost effective in the future.

        A lot of really bright college graduates have used Linux extensively, and prefer working with Linux. Academia loves Linux, providing us with an ever expanding brainshare. This vastly increases Linux marketplace muscle. Would you like to develop your application on Linux, using free everything and readily available brainpower, or would you like to retrain your developers to use costly Microsoft solutions?

        The hype was "pump and dump". However, some of those that followed the hype in trying out Linux got pleasantly surprised. It is a vibrant community, far outshining the dull, grey, business-oriented Microsoft-world. Microsoft once had that advantage over its competitors at the time (being developer-friendly), but it appears they have lost their shine.

        On the long term, expect Microsoft to do several dramatic turns to re-attract the developer community - or die.
  • by Daimaou (97573) on Monday April 08 2002, @12:42PM (#3303982)
    "That is great news since Linux community is now sure it will continue using one of the nicest distros available!"

    I agree that the Mandrake installer is nice, but I think when you compare installed systems instead of installers, you just can't get any easier or better than Debian.

    Keeping your system current takes only two commands (apt-get update, apt-get dist-upgrade). If you need a graphical apt tool, then I would suggest Synaptic.
  • I have Mandrake on my machine, and I even joined their club in order to support them. But I would like to upgrade my machine and I don't have DSL so I would like to buy a boxed set. But it looks like Fry's (big chain out here in California) has stopped carrying it (and they have not abandoned Linux, they still have RedHat and SUSE). I could shop around, but the fact that they have disappeared from the store I bought it from is alarming.
  • Out of curiosity... (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Sheetrock (152993)
    The linked article mentions that selling Mandrake company shares directly to users isn't feasible for a couple of reasons, but if Mandrake hypothetically got a wild hair and decided to do an offering in the U.S. what kind of hoops would they have to jump through setting it up?
  • by Izeickl (529058) on Monday April 08 2002, @12:43PM (#3303993) Homepage
    Although this is good news, does this not curb the "free" aspect? i.e look at this wonderful free OS, but we cant keep it going unless the users pay for it.. I know, at least the payments are done out of "love" for the OS and not simply forced upon a user, but still, I find it kind of funny and ironic. For all the hate that goes towards marketing people etc etc, I think they are needed to sell Linux to the main stream, no matter how good a coder you are, or how good the product is, Geeks dont make good sales people. No matter if it costs money or not, you still have to sell the idea of Linux.
    • i.e look at this wonderful free OS, but we cant keep it going unless the users pay for it.

      Wow. and this is getting modded up...

      Anyway, you must have an IQ about equal to your shoe size. You're arguement against all this is the EXACT FREAKIN' POINT. If we (MDK users/Linux community) don't give them a few bucks here and there, how the hell do you expect them to keep a office building open to even TRY to figure out how to keep their programmer's bellys full?

      Geeks dont make good sales people.

      And pigs don't fly. Why do you think they have a marketing department? Do you think the packagers (or whomever) are making these decisions?
    • Yes, they do ask for donations, so technically Mandrake may not be free as in beer. More like "drop $1 in the bucket if you take a beer; honor system."

      But it's definitely free as in speech, which is much more important, in my opinion. You can install Mandrake on all your systems, reconfigure it in any way you want, recompile it, reverse engineer it, publish performance benchmarks (I still can't believe some EULA's ban that), burn a CD for a friend, etc. All that's asked is that, in return, you help support Mandrake.

      Sure, I'll pay $20 or whatever to make sure that kind of freedom remains economically viable. What we're seeing is the collision of a non-idealist system (capitalism) with an idealist one (free software), and there will by definition be some dissonance.

      -John
  • As a mandrake club member, I think there would be twice as many members if they had a members-only FTP mirror. What good is a club membership if you have to wait with the non-members for the new releases? It's like joining a private a golf club and finding out that it is open to the public for less than what the members pay.
  • From the latest ROBERT X. CRINGELY: "Notes from the Field [infoworld.com]" column:

    Linux' so-called freedom

    Mandrake Linux came under fire last week for trying to redefine "free," as in free software, by charging corporate users a sizable support fee before permitting them to download its distribution of the open source Linux software. One of my spies gave them a chance nonetheless and ordered the professional edition of Linux, but to little avail. The thing is, Mandrake's system accepted and charged my spy's American Express instantaneously, but never sent the software. What's more, Mandrake's sales and support cannot track the order, leaving my spy without the software and the money.

    Look like Mandrake may be having some financial growing pains, hope they don't burn too many of their newly paying customers.

  • by linuxrunner (225041) on Monday April 08 2002, @12:53PM (#3304053) Homepage
    Here's a quote from a prior post:

    If Mandrake doesn't make it, another user-friendly GNU/Linux distro will take up the slack.

    No offense to anyone, but is this the type of attitude we're supposed to have in the opensource community? Is this the best we can do? Just to have a revolving door, of when they don't make it, someone else will do it, until they fall too... repeat.

    Are you that cheap?

    The Open Source community should be about sharing code, sharing to make better, sharing to contribute, sharing to learn from... But not sharing to mooch off of.

    I say go ahead and mooch at first. Learn about the product, etc... but if you like it, then support it. I know most MDK users are fanatics. I am one. I also know redhat users are fanatics, I am also one.
    I support both buy purchasing future releases off of the web sites. I know the iso's are there... But I choose to support the distro's so they'll be there in the future with a BETTER product.

    MDK needed help so they had to ask for money, yet people mock them for it.
    MDK is not making star office 6.0 free since sun is not making it free, and people mock them.

    Are you a linux user or not?

    Are you going to support the cause? Or just talk about it?

  • Consider the plight of Loki Games and Ezeal. If they would have stepped forward and asked everyone in the Linux community for a little extra help they may have not gone under. If nothing else quietly slipping into the night is not the way to go.

    There is a warning though: although this is a great way to get people invovled and save some worth while endevors it does not fix broken management. The danger is that even with extra cash broken management will still make bad decision and may end up using this help as a crutch.
    • Well, not to sound doomy and gloomy but Eazel never had a market to work with. Every single linux user I know that nautilus was a piece of shit. I thought their business model was absolutely stupid, and asking the community to support them wouldn't work.

      You have to offer a product people really want, Loki may have been able to do this. I doubt Eazel would have managed to survive more than a month with donations, not enough people wanted what they had to offer.

      The reason why this model works with Mandrake is a lot of people want mandrake and want it to stick around.
  • Distro question. (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Picass0 (147474) <shadowman99@leva ... g minus math_god> on Monday April 08 2002, @12:54PM (#3304064) Homepage Journal
    I'm a Red Hat user since 5.1. Red Hat was my first, and for the most part only, experience I've have with Linux.

    At the risk of being labeled a troll, I have a genuine question: If I were to try out a new distro with my next build, what are my advantages in switching to Mandrake? How many people feel Mandrake is an upgrade? I'm interested in desktop use for the most part. I want maximum compatability, and Mardrake has a Red Hat legacy.

    I also am aware that Mandrake is regarded by many as a "newbie" distro, and I am interested in progressing in my knowledge. What is a good "power distro" that features the advantages of Red Hat or Mandrake's distros?
    • Re:Distro question. (Score:3, Informative)

      by Afrosheen (42464)
      Mandrake advantages:

      Easy installation on a wide variety of machines, support for alot of newer hardware as well as old machines.

      Many filesystems to choose from.

      Good desktop integration. Apps span all desktops so if you use Gnome, KDE, Enlightenment, Blackbox, or whatever, you always have the same menu synced up so all your apps are a click away.

      Nice pentium optimizations for all packages. Redhat is stuck on i386 packages while mandrake has been i586 for years. This results in a 10-50% speed increase depending on the app, including the Advanced Extranet version of Apache, an excellent server that Mandrake ships with.

      Mandrake tries to keep newbies from making stupid mistakes. You have to install rpms as root. KDE has a red desktop and almost no icons if you login as root. This discourages newbies from using a root desktop where it's easy to do lots of damage. Telnet server is not installed by default, you have to urpmi telnet to get it to install. That's good for security, and ssh is a default part of the install if you pick the server packages.

      Fully customizable install. You can have a system install anywhere from 85 megs all the way to 2+ gigs. It depends on what you want. Also the installer knows what rpms depend on others so if you choose to remove packages from the install list it'll tell you what other packages depend on it so you won't end up with a broken system on your first install.

      Up to date libraries and programs. Mandrake has been on the bleeding-edge as far as this goes for years. While some other distros are a pain in the ass to get the newest whatever running on, usually with Mandrake it's easy since all the libs are new.

      Easy to update DURING INSTALL or post-install. During the install if you choose a mirror it'll hit the internet and get new packages for you. This was a brilliant move for mandrake because as bugs are found and squashed in 8.2, they can be added to this update list. Showstoppers can be squashed before you even boot into your fresh mandrake install for the first time. Post install updating is even easier, just open rpmdrake and click mandrake update. That's all it takes.

      There are tons of more benefits but these are really the ones that shine IMHO.
  • It's very interesting. It's on their corporate website only:
    ---
    (...)
    On a more global side, it seems important to note that we have been working to correct the difficult situation in which we found ourselves, following the strategic errors of the previous management team. The actions we have been carrying out have been in several areas:

    1. Refocusing the company around our original business, and what we are best at. It seemed necessary that we return to our original activity at MandrakeSoft: implementing Mandrake Linux, and offering value-added products and services around this solution.

    2. Lowering costs. This was necessary to bring us closer to financial stability, and took the form of removing unnessary expenses and reducing the head count. MandrakeSoft has gone from over 150 employees at the start of 2001 to less than 100 now.

    3. Increasing revenue and margins. This is done by developing new sources of revenue, such as OEM sales, e-commerce, services, online subscription services such as the Club, and increasing our margin on traditional product lines.

    January-March 2002 financial figures, which will show the results of this strategy, will be published shortly.
    ---
    http://www.mandrakesoft.com/company/investors/news letter/april2002?wslang=en [mandrakesoft.com]
  • I love mandrake, and have bought a couple boxed sets, because unlike a couple previous replies, I think that its work getting linux on the desktop is highly important.

    The only problem with their club [linux-mandrake.com] is that you must pay for an entire year at a time. The least you can pay is $60.... Now, I'm not too rich at all, but I really wouldn't mind paying $5 a month even if it was autobilled. I'd even pay $6 a month - the extra buck to cover extra credit card fees that they'd have.

    Bottom line: I can afford $5 /mo but not $60 /year

  • They've lost me... (Score:3, Informative)

    by Otter (3800) on Monday April 08 2002, @01:07PM (#3304148) Journal
    I was generally pleased when I tried out Mandrake 8.0. even if some of the "user-friendly" features got in my way more than they helped. I was hopeful about 8.1, but it turned out to be a headache, breaking supermount and giving me trouble with the development tools. I switched back to 8.0.

    8.2 has been even a bigger pain in the ass for me. The update crashed during package installation forcing me to reinstall. Audio CD playback doesn't work, on a basic ATAPI drive. (Yes, sound does work.) Finally, when I decided to try Tuxracer, it or the dependant packages that came with it hosed X.

    Yes, given time I could fix this stuff but I'm not going to. I'm downloading Skipjack ISOs instead and I'll go back to Red Hat if that works out.

    (Once again, I gave Debian a try with no luck. I realize _someone_ gets it installed, but we're talking about a pretty vanilla system here - year and a half old Athlon/VIA/NVIDIA. I mean, I have code in that distro -- I should be able to install the damn thing.)

  • ... that based on user attitudes/comments Mandrake seems to be the "macintosh" of the Linux world?

    (intended as humor)
  • by DrXym (126579) on Monday April 08 2002, @01:15PM (#3304203)
    I wish a distro - ANY distro - would invest some money in usability. Linux is never going to be ready for the desktop until someone sits 100 volunteers in front of a computer and asks them to do stuff - copy text, format a disk, connect to the internet etc. and implements the findings. There is no distro or UI (KDE/GNOME) which comes even remotely close to being user friendly as OS X or XP define it. The prize for the first distro to pull it off will be huge.


    While experts can find their way around existing distros, mere mortals will rightly conclude that XP or OS X is a better choice for them simply because it doesn't put up barriers at every stage. Even little things as more task orientation, hiding advanced settings in secondary dialogs and removal of needlessly jargon filled alerts can do much to simplify a UI.

    • by Arandir (19206) on Monday April 08 2002, @05:06PM (#3305880) Homepage Journal
      I must respectfully disagree. I haven't used either OSX or WXP yet, but so far KDE blows the socks off of Win95/98/NT/2k in terms of user friendliness, usability and functionality.

      I've used everything *but* Windows for the past twenty years. CPM, 44BSD, DOS, GeoWorks, OS/2, Linux, FreeBSD. But recently I've started using it. There were some games I wanted to use, and they're also making me use it at work now and then. Frankly, it sucks.

      Most people who say Unix/Linux/BSD is too hard say so because they are used to Windows and not used to Unix. My situation is the opposite. I'm used to Unix but not to Windows. Windows is hard to use. It's inconsistant. It's clunky.

      I can install most Linuces and every BSD with one single reboot at the end of the process. I can rebuild every piece of software except the kernel and never have to reboot. I upgraded from FreeBSD 4.4 to 4.5 with one reboot, and that included a fresh partitioning and format of the harddrive. Try that under Windows. I did a Windows install a couple of weeks ago and I had to reboot four times. Afterwards I had to reboot forevery driver and program I installed. This is ridiculous.

      Under XFree86 I have to tell it what video card and monitor I have. That's easy. Under Windows it won't let you specify what your hardware is. It must guess instead. And it kept guessing wrong.

      And configuration! Don't talk to me about ease of use until you've tried to configure a Windows system without knowing WindowsSpeak. Why do they hide all the necessary configuration stuff under layers and layers of badly designed dialogs? Why must it keep resetting all the values I type in by hand? Why can't they use plain English instead of their stupid euphemisms for god knows what? And what they hell's the difference between the hostname and the machine name, and is a group name the same as a domain name? Gah!

      Finally, the desktop. Gnome and KDE win hands down. Frankly, the Windows desktop is a piece of shit. Windows under Windows won't snap to the edge or to other windows. You can't send them to the bottom of the window stack with a single mouse click. You don't have window rollups. You can't maximize vertically or horizontally. You don't have multiple desktops. Hell, it can't even display a JPG wallpaper without firing up an instance of Internet Explorer!

      A few months ago my employer decided to standardize on Outlook. So our engineering department all got new PCs with Win2K installed next to their Solaris Sparc workstations. What a horrowshow! People who could write kernel drivers in their sleep couldn't figure this Windows thing out. The rest of the company looked at us like we were idiots because we didn't know what to do. IT was flabbergasted because we were asking questions they had never heard before.

      "How do I ssh to stomper from Windows?"
      "How do I enable plaintext in Outlook?"
      "How do I turn on command completion in the DOS shell?"
      "Where's vi, emacs, gcc, pine..."

      "How do I get a static IP like I've got on my Sparc?" "You don't need one." "Then how to I log on remotely to my PC?" "Why would you want to?" "Because I might be in the lab." "Aargh! Why can't you guys be like everyone else and just do what you're told!"

      I guess that's the big difference right there. Windows users are content with being told what to do. Unix users are only content if they are in charge of their system. Maybe Windows is user friendly to sheep, but it ain't user friendly to most other species.
  • Temporary (Score:2, Interesting)

    by kkirk007 (304967)
    Mandrake pushed the User-Club as a short-term solution to being mismanaged last year. Currently they are under much better management, and now that they're no longer in the red I believe they're clear of immediate danger.
  • Mandrakes new business model is a very important step for Free Software. Every software company in this space has been struggling to find a model that will work to support the culture and ideology that underpins this movement.

    Many companies have abandoned their roots based on certain philosophical principles only to say "well...we're grown up now so we have to be capitalists..." causing incredible divisions in their internal corporate culture. As soon as they "grow up" they forget what has driven their success - the human interest in sharing.

    Mandrake has successfully found a model based upon the notion of sharing. They have extended the concept of giving to enable the users who have the financial resources to give with a way to do it. No longer are poeple restricted to only giving back code or free support. Those users who have a little money (or more) can share it freely with the great people in the Mandrake community who are sharing their code with the commons.

    If anyone doesn't think this fits "capitalism"...well maybe capitalism in cyberspace needs an adjustment. Finally, an innovative business model which doesn't destroy the Free Software culture!
  • Uhhhh, hang on... (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Rogerborg (306625) on Monday April 08 2002, @01:52PM (#3304465) Homepage

    I'm puzzled... Mandrake are saying that it's an innovative idea to offer more stuff in return for more money.

    Before you get the troll stick out, go and read their statement. That's exactly what they say. That people were buying the box set (instead of downloading) just to give them funds, and this is a better method than that "charity purchase" because it gives more benefits to the purchaser.

    You ever see that Dilbert strip where Dogbert is explaining the basics of economics to a .com startup?

    • Startup Guy: Wait... you're saying we need revenue to make profit?
    • Startup Gal: Ouch. I have a headache on one side.

    Sounds to me like Mandrake has just discovered the basics. Sell stuff. Offer more stuff the more money you pay. Tell your customers that they're partners, because that way they're more inclined to pay (in this case, it's actually true, but the point it that it's still standard marketing spin, and business types are comforted by familiar mantras).

    Hurrah for Mandrake. I've been thinking for a while now that we could do with fewer commercial Linux distros, and better concentration of funds. I'm a SuSE user (and purchaser), but really, I don't mind who gets the money, as long as we get a few sustainable businesses out of it that we can all donate to/buy from - and get our employers to buy from - with a degree of confidence that they'll still be there next year to offer support.

  • by CAIMLAS (41445) on Monday April 08 2002, @10:57PM (#3307792) Homepage
    The only concern I have about Mandrake is the package management system that it uses. I used to be an avid Mandrake user, and loved it to death. However, I got sick of RPMs, and went debian due to the superior apt/dpkg package management. Sure, Mandrake has uirpm (or whatever it is; it's been a while since I've used it) but it still seems like an inadequate hack in an attempt to immitate teh function of apt/dpkg. I was wondering if anyone knew if there was any reason behind why mandrake has not switched to the apt/dpkg duo. It certainly makes for more secure systems. (MandrakeAutoUpdate would be nice for a newbie installation option - "Would you like MandrakeAutoUpdate to automatically connect to the internet and download program security updates when necessary? [y/n])
    • Maybe they should strongarm PC makers into paying them $20 for each PC shipped, whether or not Mandrake is on that PC. That'd be a much better 'model' to have.

      They can call it a 'club' or 'group' or whatever, but honestly, I can't see any other way for companies in their market to make money focusing just on a distribution. If they focused on training/consulting as well, that'd be a different story, and may be something they *should* do. But they're not doing it. They want to focus on making a distribution.

      So how else do you make money from free software? You simply ask for it. In return, they give certain 'niceties' to people who pay. I don't think it's 'kindness' that motivates people - they want to support a product they like.
    • Maybe.

      On the other hand, the number of linux users may be only marginally increasing while distros duke it out hand and foot for paying subscribers (apparently there are only 4 or something).

      If that is the case this is pretty bad actually since it means that these users came from a different distro.

      We need hard numbers on the numbers of linux users. That would help.
    • by tweek (18111) on Monday April 08 2002, @02:46PM (#3304844) Homepage Journal
      Let's see here:
      1. I still can't play Shockwave files with Mandrake installed "out of the box"
      - Nor can anyone else on any linux distribution. Get the crossover plugin and you might have luck. Flash is the only native plugin available to linux from Macromedia.

      2. I still have to resort to the command line when installing apps like OpenOffice
      - Since when is this Mandrake's problem? Talk to the openoffice people.

      3. I still have to resort to using LinNeighbourhood as Mandrake won't see my user account exported from a Linux box via Samba
      - Again this seems like a KDE problem and not Mandrake's

      4. CTRL+C and CTRL+V still doesn't work flawlessly between applications from different Desktop Environments (i.e. KDE and Gnome)
      - yet another "talk to the actual application developer

      5. I still have to manually configure mime types in Evolution to make it use Galeon instead of Mozilla
      - So you decided to use Galeon over Mozilla which Mandrake happily preconfigured as the handler for those file types? Sounds like a you problem. I personally don't WANT galeon to overwrite my mime settings. Isn't that one of the pains in the ass under windows is that every app under god's nutsack want's to be your default handler?

      6. I still have to manually configure Mozilla setup a minimum font size so that I don't get those stupid fonts that are so small that they are unreadable
      - I'll give you this one. Why can't distro providers preinstall mozilla-fonts and set those as the default. Then again, maybe you like your fonts bigger than most.

      7. I still have to re-configure mime types so that when I click an m3u (MP3 playlist) in Galeon, it uses xmms
      - Sounds like another case of you just wanting to be a little different. Not a problem mind you but Mandrake (and any other distro for that matter) have to make a stand somewhere. This is our default config. We can help you with some stuff but not others. Hence the support subscriptions.

      8. And of course I still can't edit Microsoft Word documents with 100% accuracy, despite all the crowing that goes on about OpenOffice, StarOffice, KDE Office and the others
      - So this isn't a mandrake problem either. It sounds like an OpenOffice,StarOffice,KDE Office and the others problem.

      Having said all that, I still fail to see what your problem with mandrake is? I don't personally use it but everything you've listed is not related to mandrake by any stretch.